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Ash Changes


Awazx
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53 minutes ago, Awazx said:

Do not be an *****. I do not mind 'working'. The new mechanic is slow, tedious and impractical. That does bother me.

nice job utterly ignoring the valid points of my previous post. if you're going to respond directly to me, respond to the entirety of what i've said, not just the section you feel you should. doing so shows the ability to actually process logic.

on topic: lets look at this objectively for a second. I've been playing since update seven. and in that time, i've seen many an ash player. and in the years that i've been playing, i've seen maybe a whopping five use anything other than his ult, which is not good.

now, lets look at what his ult pre-change did for other people within the squad, instead of what he did for himself. Ash's ult would force your teammates to do one of two things: sit n ****, or run outside his range to actually get some kills because bladestormed targets could only be killed by ash. this, caused a lotta issues, namely for other people who wanted to get some kills in. I can also not even begin to count the times i've asked people to not "be that guy" thats just spamcasting bs so that the other teammates could get in on some of the action, and been hilariously enough, insulted for daring to ask the god ash to spare some blood for the mere mortals.

his ult before the change, locked players out of functionally being able to contribute to the game, similar to how mesa was pre-alteration to her ult. this allows for team play as opposed to ash wins the game again. now, all players can get in on the action, as opposed to one player getting it all because of the ability to nuke an entire map into infinity, due to a single mod that shouldn't be allowed to effect his ultimate.

the "cut and dried" part of my stance boils down to this: now, ash players get to climb down from the throne of mindless 4 spam to win, and join the rest of us mere mortals within the need to struggle within the game, which is what gives the game actual merit. being able to instagib everything forever is flat out cheeseball levels of nonsense, and again, has given me incentive to pick him back up and give him another whirl because the effective change removes that super cheeseball level of nonsense.

ash players may not like it, but not liking it is not the same as a bad decision design wise. they did the same with excal, turning him from blade spitting turret back into a melee frame, which is exactly what he should be. 

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So I have to press 4, aim at each individual enemy, press 4 again, wait for the animation to finish to end up with a number of dead enemies and a lot less energy. In the same time I could NOT press 4, use my (semi auto / burst / shotgun) primary weapon, aim (and shoot) at each indidiual enemy, NOT press 4 again, NOT wait for the animation to finish and end up with the same number of kills (my semi auto / burst / shotgun primaries ALL oneshot most mobs in WF), less time spent and a lot more energy.

Yeah, that sounds like a great revamp ...

Sorry, DE. I actually like many of the revamps you did over quite some time now. I like the "new" Ember, Frost, Nekros (not perfect, but still great fun to play). I was ok with the changes to Mesa (she still rocks but is a little less boring) and Trinity (the nerf was neither needed nor done very well, but I still like her). But that Ash revamp makes me not want to play that frame anymore. I rarely ever used Ash (besides from maxing the frame and putting Forma in it) since I prefer other frames. But I see no reason to play that revamped Ash at all. A revamp may have been necessary - well, actually, I didn't mind those Ash users pressing 4 all the time, in the end it's a co-op based game, the worst thing they did was to "steal" my kills. But THIS is not the revamp Ash deserved. It's a straight and serious nerf and NO frame deserves that (ok, maybe Trinity - not because she's op but because somebody at DE seems to hate her for some reason).

Edited by RG870
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6 minutes ago, Stonehenge said:

For my part, i love this rework. I have to think a minimum and stop the push 4 to win. Thank you.

And,

Magad. Dat. Skin.

glad to see another logical soul taking note of things and adapting. always a pleasure to interact with ya stony.

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7 minutes ago, RG870 said:

So I have to press 4, aim and click at each individual enemy, press 4 again, wait for the animation to finish to end up with a number of dead enemies and a lot less energy. In the same time I could NOT press 4, use my (semi auto / burst / shotgun) primary weapon, aim and click at each indidiual enemy, NOT press 4 again, NOT wait for the animation to finish and end up with the same number of kills (my semi auto / burst / shotgun primaries ALL oneshot most mobs in WF), less time spent and a lot more energy.

Yeah, that sounds like a great revamp ...

Sorry, DE. I actually like many of the revamps you did over quite some time now. I like the "new" Ember, Frost, Nekros (not perfect, but still great fun to play). I was ok with the changes to Mesa (she still rocks but is a little less boring) and Trinity (the nerf was neither needed nor done very well, but I still like her). But that Ash revamp makes me not want to play that frame anymore. I rarely ever used Ash (besides from maxing the frame and putting Forma in it) since I prefer other frames. But I see no reason to play that revamped Ash at all. A revamp may have been necessary - well, actually, I didn't mind those Ash users pressing 4 all the time, in the end it's a co-op based game, the worst thing they did was to "steal" my kills. But THIS is not the revamp Ash deserved. It's a straight and serious nerf and NO frame deserves that (ok, maybe Trinity - not because she's op but because somebody at DE seems to hate her for some reason).

I know you're intending some well meaning negative feedback, but.....

It doesn't work like that.  It's important to play it before passing judgement.

The way this thing plays out is that you activate your 4, then basically sweep around the room.  The mark is seamless and fast, the second you've passed your crosshair over an enemy it's marked.  Press 4 again and proceed to bladestorm everything you've marked.  As best I could tell by using it, this includes enemies that are long since out of your LOS, though I haven't determined a total range.  It also doesn't expend a full 100 energy to use the ability.  In fact, I couldn't figure out how much it spent, to be honest(I've run two missions so far with it, so while I've tried it out, I'm by no means the definitive source).  I do know, however, that I'm running Ash without efficiency mods and without flow, and with Zenurik I didn't even begin to have energy problems.

Is it a damage nerf versus the "enter room, push 4" that Ash used to have?  Yeah, definitely.  Every second of time taken marking enemies is time that the old Bladestorm would have just been going off.

But it actually plays out very well.  There are now times that teleport makes more sense.  The changes that allow smoke screen to be used on the move have made it a hundred times more fluid, and far more useful in lining up a bladestorm.  His entire gameplay is much more fast and fluid now, and bladestorm comes into play when you run into a cluster of enemies, or even enemies that are scattered and forcing you to dart in and out of cover because once you've got the marks, you turn into the same "screw it, I'm killing everybody" Ash that he always was.

So far, this actually seems pretty well done.

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It's honestly not as slow as I thought it was going to be from the initial description. You don't have to click on anything, you just toggle 4 on and move your mouse over top of enemies and it turns them red (at least that's how it worked for me, I'm assuming that wasn't a bug), then you hit 4 again and it does a typical bladestorm. While in this targeting/marking mode, you can still move freely, use other abilities (including stealth) and even fire your weapon. 

Maybe a minor tweak could be to make his crosshairs a bit bigger while it's toggled on. Not like Mesa full screen, but... bigger. Since you can still use your weapon freely in targeting or perhaps you could call it "painting" mode, that might be a bit clunky though. I'm not sure. 

Maybe consider some kind of additional survival buff. The stealth changes are nice, but maybe a buff to base stealth duration would be a nice addition as well. Another idea would be either while 4 targeting is active, or just as an additional frame passive, Ash could block from all directions while his melee weapon is out and in block mode and/or have an increased block amount (or reduction in channeling cost since channeled block blocks all damage?) so if you are in difficult content you can switch to your melee weapon and turn block on to give you some extra protection while marking targets. 

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On 23.11.2016 at 11:00 PM, Awazx said:

Dear DE, maybe you have not noticed, but your game is to kill mobs, hundreds of mobs, and it must be done in a matter of seconds. Warframe is not a tactical game. This new mechanic for Ash is a poor design decision and another indicator that you do not understand your own game.

Wait for results.

-Awazx

Dear Awazx,

i know we humans have sometimes problems with changes and new stuff.

Did you realize  .... after pressing 4 once you can move, rush, slide ...whatever around.

No enemycap of max 15 now /// No range limited.

And with only 3.75 Energy per Mark iam able to mark the whole map before pressing 4 again.

Staying close to the exit and kill the whole map with one fingertip isnt that bad i guess :D

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33 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

Maybe a minor tweak could be to make his crosshairs a bit bigger while it's toggled on. Not like Mesa full screen, but... bigger.

And that's the problem. As it is now, the crosshair zone is too small. Make it bigger and you end up with a Mesa clone which needs a longer animation afterwards while Mesa could already have killed everything. I don't mind they wanted to change Ash (although I never had a problem with people who used that frame and spammed 4), but I don't like what they did to his ultimate. For me this is one of the worst reworks. Not that it really touches me. As I said, I hardly ever play Ash. But the same thing can happen to one of my favorite frames next and I also feel for those who like(d) to play Ash. In the end it's a co-op based game. If somebody wants to clear a whole room with one button press - so be it. It does not hurt me, we're both fighting on the same side.

Edited by RG870
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23 minutes ago, RG870 said:

In the end it's a co-op based game. If somebody wants to clear a whole room with one button press - so be it. It does not hurt me, we're both fighting on the same side.

That's the point, it's a co-op based game. No one should be able to clear a room every 20 secondes by himself once you reach a certain level. The team must be great when all players find something usefull to do. Spamm 4 Ash was a lazy plague for team play.

Being in a co-op game and let somebody break all the teamplay just because he wants to have fun are not the same thing, they are mutually exclusive.

 

 

Edited by Stonehenge
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50 minutes ago, Tasmanian_Devil said:

No enemycap of max 15 now /// No range limited.

 

This doesn't appear to be accurate. 

I tested this with limited range higher duration build and marked enemies then moved out of range and hit bladestorm. It makes an error sound and exits targeting mode, not attacking a single marked enemy out of range. Not sure about the target cap, but it seems to still be range limited. 

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On 11/23/2016 at 6:12 PM, PoisonHD said:

No pushing one button is not.

Pushing multiple? Yes, and actually having to do something is (Referring to killing enemies). With Ash as he is, I can literally aim at a choke point on a defense, and just press 4 every... 10-15 seconds? Less? And kill most of the stuff on the map.

This change actually requires you to aim and mark the enemies you want to kill now, which is a good addition.

This...

 

Also to the main post: embrace the change and like Steve said be patient and try it out...give constructive (Numbers, Bugs, Technical Problems, Time, Coparasions between the two DPS, etc...) feedback, so the Devs can take a look at it. You do know this was tested and a lot of feedback came from the active player community right?

Edited by 0zryel
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6 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

nice job utterly ignoring the valid points of my previous post.

You have not given any valid point. You started out being sarcastic and talking about truisms. Your post has no value.

I repeat: the new mechanics do not fit the rhythm of Warframe game, it is annoying and ineffective. A bad idea as is usual in DE in recent times.

Edited by Awazx
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2 minutes ago, Awazx said:

You have not given any valid point. You started out being sarcastic and talking about truisms. Your post has no value.

I repeat: the new mechanics do not fit the rhythm of Warframe game, it is annoying and ineffective. A bad idea of ED as is usual in DE in recent times.

sarcasm is in my very nature, and yes there were valid points. your inability or unwilling to see them is neither my concern or care. ash was a press 4 to deny teammates kills, and now he's not. this, regardless of your personal opinion on the matter, is for the better of the entire community of players as a whole.

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9 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

sarcasm is in my very nature

I do not care about his nature. This post talks about Ash.

9 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

and yes there were valid points

No. Your post is useless.

9 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

ash was a press 4 to deny teammates kills, and now he's not. 

That does not mean that the new mechanics are good or better.

9 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

this, regardless of your personal opinion on the matter, is for the better of the entire community of players as a whole.

That remains to be seen.

Edited by Awazx
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3 minutes ago, Awazx said:

I do not care about his nature. This post talks about Ash.

No. Your post is useless.

That does not mean that the new mechanics are good or better.

That remains to be seen.

again, your inability or unwillingness to grasp such a painfully simple concept as "denying teammates any action with the press of a button unto infinity" being a bad thing for interactions between the ash user and their teammates, is not my concern, nor does it invalidate me pointing it out, thus by the dictation of logic does not make my point or posts "useless". 

from everyone i've spoken with regarding these changes, they've been pleased to the change of the flow of the way that his skills are used within the game, and in relation to team play. if you think that a press one button to nuke the entire map for infinity is a good thing, then my friend, you understand absolutely nothing of game balance, or intended balance.

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1 minute ago, ObviousLee said:

"denying teammates any action with the press of a button unto infinity" being a bad thing for interactions between the ash user and their teammates,

I agree. I have never denied that point. I share the vision of the problem.

What I am saying (and you are unable to understand, not me) is that the proposed solution (the current mechanics) does not solve the problem. The new mechanic is annoying, impractical and does not fit the Warframe combat rhythm. It's you who does not understand Ash, neither Warframe nor the game.

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6 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

nice job utterly ignoring the valid points of my previous post. if you're going to respond directly to me, respond to the entirety of what i've said, not just the section you feel you should. doing so shows the ability to actually process logic.

on topic: lets look at this objectively for a second. I've been playing since update seven. and in that time, i've seen many an ash player. and in the years that i've been playing, i've seen maybe a whopping five use anything other than his ult, which is not good.

now, lets look at what his ult pre-change did for other people within the squad, instead of what he did for himself. Ash's ult would force your teammates to do one of two things: sit n ****, or run outside his range to actually get some kills because bladestormed targets could only be killed by ash. this, caused a lotta issues, namely for other people who wanted to get some kills in. I can also not even begin to count the times i've asked people to not "be that guy" thats just spamcasting bs so that the other teammates could get in on some of the action, and been hilariously enough, insulted for daring to ask the god ash to spare some blood for the mere mortals.

his ult before the change, locked players out of functionally being able to contribute to the game, similar to how mesa was pre-alteration to her ult. this allows for team play as opposed to ash wins the game again. now, all players can get in on the action, as opposed to one player getting it all because of the ability to nuke an entire map into infinity, due to a single mod that shouldn't be allowed to effect his ultimate.

the "cut and dried" part of my stance boils down to this: now, ash players get to climb down from the throne of mindless 4 spam to win, and join the rest of us mere mortals within the need to struggle within the game, which is what gives the game actual merit. being able to instagib everything forever is flat out cheeseball levels of nonsense, and again, has given me incentive to pick him back up and give him another whirl because the effective change removes that super cheeseball level of nonsense.

ash players may not like it, but not liking it is not the same as a bad decision design wise. they did the same with excal, turning him from blade spitting turret back into a melee frame, which is exactly what he should be. 

I am an ash player and I do like the rework, of course I am one of those player's that uses his other powers that you mentioned :)

Edited by Gildarts_bb
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29 minutes ago, Awazx said:

I agree. I have never denied that point. I share the vision of the problem.

What I am saying (and you are unable to understand, not me) is that the proposed solution (the current mechanics) does not solve the problem. The new mechanic is annoying, impractical and does not fit the Warframe combat rhythm. It's you who does not understand Ash, neither Warframe nor the game.

i've been playing since update 7 consistently till now. you're right, with thousands of hours in the game, thousands of missions done, usage of the majority of the warframes and weapons, but hey you're right i have absolutely no understanding. just sifted through your profile and yea, considering i've vastly more usage on my zephyr than you've on the majority of your frames in totality, i'd think your asinine comment about me lacking the knowledge of A: how the rhythm of combat goes, and B: the game as a whole has been rendered inert.

so, now that THAT is outta the way, take a moment to notice this message below.

23 minutes ago, Gildarts_bb said:

I am an ash player and I do like the rework, of course I am one of those player's that uses his other powers that you mentioned :)

here, is someone who understands that a single button that removes interaction within the game for other players, is a very very bad thing. 

 

so again, your subjective opinion is not a defining factor on what is objectively good or bad for warframe as a whole.

Edited by ObviousLee
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1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

ash was a press 4 to deny teammates kills, and now he's not. this, regardless of your personal opinion on the matter, is for the better of the entire community of players as a whole.

Ash's 4 was actually pretty slow. You could easily kill more mobs than Ash in an open area before he got to them. IE: Ash enters bladestorm, Mirage walks up and fires into center of a large group = Mirage gets more kills than Ash. 

Mesa's 4 can kill much faster than Ash's pre-nerf 4 when you have line of sight. It also scales better in higher level content and against things like ancients. She also has better defenses (though annoyingly can't re-cast her 3 while it's still active even though Mirage can because... reasons). 

I think he'll remain a decently used frame. Even if a lot of people hate his 4, his augmented 3 is actually really useful for a number of things.

The Ash changes aren't really going to affect the game that significantly. It will only really affect frequent Ash players, whether they view it as a positive or negative. I hardly ever encounter Ash players in public games and never was negatively impacted by blade storm when I did see them. Very few non-ash players will be affected by this change at all, so your view that it was some significant improvement for the entire community is debatable and as subjective as every other opinion in this thread.

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3 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

Ash's 4 was actually pretty slow. You could easily kill more mobs than Ash in an open area before he got to them. IE: Ash enters bladestorm, Mirage walks up and fires into center of a large group = Mirage gets more kills than Ash. 

Mesa's 4 can kill much faster than Ash's pre-nerf 4 when you have line of sight. It also scales better in higher level content and against things like ancients. She also has better defenses (though annoyingly can't re-cast her 3 while it's still active even though Mirage can because... reasons). 

I think he'll remain a decently used frame. Even if a lot of people hate his 4, his augmented 3 is actually really useful for a number of things.

The Ash changes aren't really going to affect the game that significantly. It will only really affect frequent Ash players, whether they view it as a positive or negative. I hardly ever encounter Ash players in public games and never was negatively impacted by blade storm when I did see them. Very few non-ash players will be affected by this change at all, so your view that it was some significant improvement for the entire community is debatable and as subjective as every other opinion in this thread.

Sadly this wasn't actually true. He pressed 4 and mirage and everyone else was waiting for his slow &#! to finish killing everything before they could even damage the targets

 

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37 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Sadly this wasn't actually true. He pressed 4 and mirage and everyone else was waiting for his slow &#! to finish killing everything before they could even damage the targets

 

Well, if there weren't more targets than his target limit it was probably a boring and uneventful map regardless. I actually never even realized you couldn't kill them so it apparently never affected me. 

Edited by Borg1611
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Don't like changes. It's still not interesting and inconvenient to use.

I would have done so:

Ash attack when you push 4 (just once), but the camera stays in place where you were (with free look). You can add new marks for attacked enemy with no limit (only energy) by pushing 4 again, and you can mark another enemies as well, they will be executed in one by one. 

You can stop execution by using any abillity or holding 4.

Special augment: Target vision. When you invisible you can see and mark enemies through walls. If you start 4 from invisiblity, Target vision will be working all time you usin 4 ability.

So you can control the space, selectively find and kill most dangerous units, before the do something bad. And no autokiiling all map.

Another way: one mark - attacking unit for deth or some limit (as it was before) and two clones (as it was before) for faster killing. But still, direct marking for each target.

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