[spoilers] Paris is not as popular/powerful as Paris Prime, Riven disposition should scale depending on variant

[motorfirebox]

Basically, there's no reason that Paris should have to carry the weight of Paris Prime's stats, Riven disposition-wise. If you want to make less-popular weapons more viable, that has to include less-popular variants of popular weapons, right? So Paris, with its dinky stats, ought to have a strong Riven disposition while Paris Prime has a faint one. There's clearly already some sort of scaling formula being applied to Riven cards; apply that formula dynamically on the mod itself, instead of applying it when the card is unveiled or cycled.

This will save trouble in the future, too. Right now, Daikyu has a strong Riven disposition. But what happens when Daikyu Prime comes out, and it does a hundred thousand damage and 150% crit chance base? Obviously, the Riven disposition for Daikyu will have to go from strong to faint... which will nerf the poor ol' regular Daikyu, which never hurt nobody :(

But if disposition is attached to individual variants instead of flatly across all variants then Daikyu Prime can be faint and regular Daikyu can be strong, and everybody will be happy forever and ever!

Edited November 24, 2016 by motorfirebox

[PerishedFraud]

Buddy boy.

Bows generally cannot compare much to other weapons, especially newer endgame ones.

Yes, even Cernos Prime.

That said, has it ever occured to you that regular weapons are weaker than primes because they are weaker weapons?

[Xekrin]

It would be better if disposition were calculated based on stats and weapon type rather something so ambiguous as "meta" and "most globally used".  

Would such a thing be easy to accomplish?  I've no idea but it sounds relatively straightforward for the most part.  If a weapon has a base 25% or higher crit chance, chances are its a strong crit weapon and its disposition shouldn't be strong.  Pretty simple.  Same goes for base damage, status chance and so on.  The stats of the weapon is what makes it "meta" it should be fairly logical to determine which datasets are most meta defined.

On the other side, for "strong" weapons, If a weapon has 5% status chance, 77% or whatever status chance isn't going to help "at all" on that weapon.  So choosing it as such in a random roll is not going to make an effective riven mod.  Sure there have to be "bad stats" but there doesn't have to be pointless stats.

At least this way if a weapon has a variant it goes off of the base stats and not if that weapon is used a lot or its prime version is used a lot.

 

[motorfirebox]

2 hours ago, BeeOverlord said:

Buddy boy.

Bows generally cannot compare much to other weapons, especially newer endgame ones.

Yes, even Cernos Prime.

That said, has it ever occured to you that regular weapons are weaker than primes because they are weaker weapons?

That's... not really my point? I like bows, so I used bows as my example. I could use other weapons.

And yes, I'm aware that the normal versions are weaker. They are also less-often used, and one of DE's goals with Riven mods is to make less-used weapons more popular. It doesn't bother me that the Paris is weaker than Paris Prime—I'm not arguing that their stats should be changed. But non-Prime variants are less-used than Prime variants, so it seems to me that the Riven mods should work better on non-Prime variants.

[PerishedFraud]

Riven mods are made to make less-used weapons as a whole used more.

It serves to bring non-meta weapons to endgame.

It doesn't serve to bring weaker variants to endgame.

What I'm saying is you SHOULD always look at the upgraded version of a weapon because there is no reason not to use it. 

If that weapon, as a whole, is underrated or weak, then rivens are doing their job.

 

...

 

Now, if I could apply permanent upgrades to my basic weapons, I'd be all over that in a second.

[Fansay]

2 hours ago, Xekrin said:

It would be better if disposition were calculated based on stats and weapon type rather something so ambiguous as "meta" and "most globally used".  

Would such a thing be easy to accomplish?  I've no idea but it sounds relatively straightforward for the most part.  If a weapon has a base 25% or higher crit chance, chances are its a strong crit weapon and its disposition shouldn't be strong.  Pretty simple.  Same goes for base damage, status chance and so on.  The stats of the weapon is what makes it "meta" it should be fairly logical to determine which datasets are most meta defined.

On the other side, for "strong" weapons, If a weapon has 5% status chance, 77% or whatever status chance isn't going to help "at all" on that weapon.  So choosing it as such in a random roll is not going to make an effective riven mod.  Sure there have to be "bad stats" but there doesn't have to be pointless stats.

At least this way if a weapon has a variant it goes off of the base stats and not if that weapon is used a lot or its prime version is used a lot.

 

This also introduces an issue with new weapons being introduced. How does that affect Rivens? Do they plonk it in their "list" based on its stats (being somewhat able to determine its place in the "meta"). Of course, they could have it dynamic. So as weapons are used they get moved around the "list". But now the whole purpose of rivens is pretty much defeated. Increase usage of less popular weapons just to have the Riven nerfed and interest gone with it too.

In my opinion you would break the weapons into their various categories and scale them based on their "dps" using calculations that consider status, reload speed, etc.Then divide it into thirds (even or not, depends on outliers and how near to each other the bottom and top of the thirds would be, now we enter the realm of statistics). Then when a new weapon is created you can easily put it where it should be.

[Xekrin]

1 hour ago, Fansay said:

In my opinion you would break the weapons into their various categories and scale them based on their "dps" using calculations

exactly.  We obviously have no real clue how riven disposition is determined under the hood, all we know is they said the meta weapons would be 'faint'.  This doesn't really explain much to us other than if its popular its not getting great riven stats (not that 'strong' is getting great ones now anyway from what I hear).

Basing a mod's strength on usage alone just seems wrong and ultimately a bad idea.  There need to be defined rules (that the players are aware of) that determine what makes a weapon's disposition bad, good or great.

Since I've yet to see any information on it, I also want to add that there are certain stats that simply should not exist on rivens for certain weapons.  This goes along with the whole basing riven mod stats on a weapon's base stats.  

If a weapon's crit chance is 0% (Panthera) it should definitely not have crit chance or damage in the pool of possibilities.  Same for elemental weapons getting IPS stats and so on.  Unless they decide to change the rules we've lived by for years (no IPS on pure element weapons) and allow simulors to do slash damage if and only if given by a riven mod, it should not even come up in the roll.

If this is the case they need to tell us pretty quick.

[Autongnosis]

4 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

Basically, there's no reason that Paris should have to carry the weight of Paris Prime's stats, Riven disposition-wise. If you want to make less-popular weapons more viable, that has to include less-popular variants of popular weapons, right?

Nope.

Cause less popular variants of popular weapons is what gives a progression in the game. MK-1 Paris sucks balls, Paris sucks less, Paris Prime is pretty decent. That's by design. You don't go about messing with weapon progression. It's obvious that the basic variants will be abandoned when the Prime one comes out - the Prime one is supposed to obsolesce anything that isn't a high end variant already (IE - syndicate variant).

[ashrah]

paris prime is good for solo void...

[motorfirebox]

2 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

Nope.

Cause less popular variants of popular weapons is what gives a progression in the game. MK-1 Paris sucks balls, Paris sucks less, Paris Prime is pretty decent. That's by design. You don't go about messing with weapon progression. It's obvious that the basic variants will be abandoned when the Prime one comes out - the Prime one is supposed to obsolesce anything that isn't a high end variant already (IE - syndicate variant).

It's not about progression. All else being equal, I don't thing a regular Paris with a strong Riven disposition is going to as good as a Paris Prime with a faint disposition. But it might be good enough to play around with as an alternative.

I mean, honestly, the real progression in Warframe isn't about weapons anyway. It's about mods. Getting a regular Paris forma'd to the point where you can even fit a Riven mod on there alongside all the other mods is way, way more work than getting a Paris Prime.

[VonDodo]

Paris prime is mostly popular due to Ivara; being the only good bow with puncture based damage.

And there is no reason any Ivara player should sacrifice a mod that won't scale with artemis bow ._.

[faiyde]

Sometimes the prime (or otherwise upgraded versions) actually function differently, thus having riven mods disposition done differently per version makes a quite a bit of sense.

Take the Cernos for example - the prime has innate multishot and the basic version fires faster. In the way the weapons handle (not the i/p/s balance) they are more like different bows to each other than the ParisP and dread are, but those (obviously) get different mods entirely.