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Conclave: Remove All PvE Dependency


Lemonpartydragon
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PvP should be self-contained. Tying it to PvP accomplishments invariably leads to a massive gap in new(er) players' ability to participate in PvE despite it having nothing to do with PvP except requiring the accumulation of PvE-centric rewards such as weapons and frames.

There are two solutions I would propose.

  1. PvP as a Self-Contained System of Rewards and Progression
    • PvE items on an account are completely separate from Conclave items
    • All players may use one of three basic frames for Conclave by default (Volt, Excalibur, Rhino, perhaps?)
    • All frames/weapons/mods usable in Conclave will be added to a subdivision of the Market (clearly delineated) that accepts only Platinum and Conclave currency
    • All players receive a one-time gift of Conclave currency to spend on some combination of frames/mods/weapons as a sort of "starter pack"
    • Players now earn Conclave currency with each match, where the received amount is some function of Conclave Standing earned, but where the minimum reward per-match ensures that players may buy some new item within (3) matches (assume this to be a cheap mod for argumentative purposes)
    • All Conclave cosmetic rewards, as well as relic packs, are still Standing-exclusive and locked by faction rank
  2. PvP as a Self-Contained System of Cosmetic Rewards and Unlocked Gameplay
    • PvE items on an account are completely separate from Conclave items
    • All players may access all frames, weapons, and mods available in Conclave freely from the start
    • Cosmetic rewards are still Standing-exclusive and locked by faction rank

Implementing either of the two above systems would help to ease players' entry into Conclave by decoupling Conclave content from PvE content.

There is a risk that implementing solution 1 would result in a weird situation like that of Archwing, except with no mandatory content (such as quests) to offer incentives for participating. Ideally this should be alleviated by the "starter pack" and relatively generous currency rewards outlined above.

Edited by Lemonpartydragon
Fixed a typo in the tagline
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"The worst passive influence on Conclave is the limitation that, for optimal performance, players must invest both in PvE and in PvP.
It is difficult to compete in Conclave without a fair measure of PvE investment, which limits Conclave's audience to the PvP-open set of players within a largely PvE community."
The reliance of the Conclave arsenal upon the PvE arsenal poses a significant barrier to entry to new Conclave players.

Still, I'm given the impression that DE wants Conclave to incentivize PvE progress, including purchases; entirely detaching PvP from PvE progress would eliminate this incentive. Perhaps players could be allowed to use all weapons and frames in Conclave, regardless of ownership, but modding would remain limited to owned weapons.

7 minutes ago, Witchydragon said:

game is marketed almost exclusively as a PvE centered game

Marketing can change to reflect content.

Spoiler
50 minutes ago, Lemonpartydragon said:

Tying it to PvE accomplishments invariably leads to a massive gap in new(er) players' ability to participate in PvP

FTFY

Edited by SevenLetterKWord
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At some point it becomes a spin off game from Warframe, rather than a part of Warframe, and neither of your solutions seem particularly elegant in addressing the effect of PvE investment in PvP. 

Making weapons like the Latron, Snipetron, Dera, Tonkor, and anything that has a Conclave skin available through Conclave (preferably not as standing rewards from Teshin, maybe have Conclave matches drop more resources?) will reduce the impact that PvE progression has on player performance. Making all non-tradeoff mods innate to weapons and frames (while clearly informing the player those exist) will reduce the significance of supercharging weapons and frames, forma, and ranking up weapons. 

However, this primarily only affects the brand new players of Warframe who come into Warframe wanting to play Conclave because they are Ex-GunZ or S4 League vets and want to experience the epic chaos that Conclave has to offer. These players are virtually non-existent, I've literally only met about 4 (a generous guesstimate) over a year of playing, and the game is marketed almost exclusively as a PvE centered game. It's far more common for PvE players who have gotten bored of farming the primes, sorties, and what-have-you to jump into Conclave with access to an extensive armory. Still, in this case, having mods be less crucial and game-changing will help retain Conclave players.

Unless DE starts to really highlight Conclave as an integral part of Warframe, the ability to unlock more weapons and frames through Conclave without playing PvE extensively will not make a huge difference.

 

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I am all for removing the dependency of PVE to get resources and Warframes and weapon's, but to an extent. I do not want to see PVP as a separate game, but as another fun way to enjoy the game and progress in level.

To ease newer players into Conclave, there needs to be servers with a match making system based on experience, your K:D ratio, and Mastery.
 Maybe DE can bring ranked matches to the conclave.

@Lemonpartydragon

 

I believe the game is marketed as mostly a PVE centered game right now because it was never first intentions to make anything player vs player and Conclave currently has a few flaws that need to be handled before it is marketed as Warframe. I believe DE wants to bring Conclave to marketing level, they show care for it with constant improvements and there is much to gain and little to lose by doing so. They can and will attract new players to the game, with a strong PVP mode. DE has done a lot to improve PVP in the past and they continue to work on it.

You most likely encounter few players who come to PVP to experience "epic chaos that conclave has to offer" simply because most competitive PVP players don't stick around in a PVP nonexistent game and there is little to no involvement in PVP going on in the game currently leaving little to talk about. Also, yes because it isn't marketed. IF we better Conclave, it can be marketed.

@Witchydragon

Edited by (XB1)Tylers Legend
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I don't think Conclave should be severed completely from the rest of the game. Weapons and Warframes are balanced and seeing another player do good with a certain frame gives incentive to players to go out and seek those new frames and experiment all the content available. In fact I would prefer if Conclave had more impact on the rest of the game by making the (mostly sidegrade or gimmick) mods (except maybe the mobility ones) usable in PvE (which wouldn't terribly affect pve balance now that Riven mods exist)

What Conclave mostly needs for now has been stated countless times:

-Server browser, or at least a better matchmaking that throws you always on a server with at least 1 person.

-Make all conclave mods be standing rewards, that way you can clearly see what mods are available and work for them.

-A little better marketing, DE could organize a "tournament" now that we have dedicated servers and offer prizes to both participants and winners, it could be advertised with trailers consisting of a speech by Teshin with some videoclips submitted by players thrown in.

-Completing matches awarding both credits and resources so you can technically fund more weapons and frames by playing Conclave.

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Conclave used to offer credits and cores (now endo) in useful quantities along with the pvp reward. This allowed players to gain something useful in pve while playing pvp. The pve gains were not competitive to what you'd gain in pve but allowed one to max their conclave mods.

I would rather this be expanded on, getting some more pve rewards from pvp. For example you can level gear in pvp after forma. Because it doesn't rely so much on mods (I feel this is less true now than before) it's not a bad place to earn some affinity.

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19 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

"The worst passive influence on Conclave is the limitation that, for optimal performance, players must invest both in PvE and in PvP.
It is difficult to compete in Conclave without a fair measure of PvE investment, which limits Conclave's audience to the PvP-open set of players within a largely PvE community."
The reliance of the Conclave arsenal upon the PvE arsenal poses a significant barrier to entry to new Conclave players.

Still, I'm given the impression that DE wants Conclave to incentivize PvE progress, including purchases; entirely detaching PvP from PvE progress would eliminate this incentive. Perhaps players could be allowed to use all weapons and frames in Conclave, regardless of ownership, but modding would remain limited to owned weapons.

Marketing can change to reflect content.

  Reveal hidden contents

FTFY

It's the exact problem of disparate Conclave accessibility due to limited PvE Arsenal progression that I hope a decoupling would eliminate. Although I do think there is room for there to be a significant problem in way of incentivizing purchases, I feel that my first proposed solution probably handles that adequately by still incorporating Platinum into the Conclave-specific market subdivision. Naturally, these purchases should unlock the weapon for both PvE and PvP, but if DE really wanted to squeeze people, they could be separate.

18 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

At some point it becomes a spin off game from Warframe, rather than a part of Warframe, and neither of your solutions seem particularly elegant in addressing the effect of PvE investment in PvP. 

Making weapons like the Latron, Snipetron, Dera, Tonkor, and anything that has a Conclave skin available through Conclave (preferably not as standing rewards from Teshin, maybe have Conclave matches drop more resources?) will reduce the impact that PvE progression has on player performance. Making all non-tradeoff mods innate to weapons and frames (while clearly informing the player those exist) will reduce the significance of supercharging weapons and frames, forma, and ranking up weapons. 

However, this primarily only affects the brand new players of Warframe who come into Warframe wanting to play Conclave because they are Ex-GunZ or S4 League vets and want to experience the epic chaos that Conclave has to offer. These players are virtually non-existent, I've literally only met about 4 (a generous guesstimate) over a year of playing, and the game is marketed almost exclusively as a PvE centered game. It's far more common for PvE players who have gotten bored of farming the primes, sorties, and what-have-you to jump into Conclave with access to an extensive armory. Still, in this case, having mods be less crucial and game-changing will help retain Conclave players.

Unless DE starts to really highlight Conclave as an integral part of Warframe, the ability to unlock more weapons and frames through Conclave without playing PvE extensively will not make a huge difference.

 

I think you might be mischaracterizing the solution a bit - making these weapons available through Conclave specifically for use in Conclave, but not in PvE, avoids the problem of PvE-PvP progression interactions (such as PvE vets jumping in with much greater freedom of choice in armory). As for reducing the significance of frames, Forma, etc., I do not see why making just a handful of non-tradeoff mods innate would be a problem - as it stands very few Conclave weapons even require a single Forma to achieve a full build, or only require it for a single low-level utility mod such as the map-tracking-on-hit series (i.e. Night Stalker). There would be an issue with how improving Conclave weapons with potatoes/Forma versus in the PvE game might be handled, since it can potentially increase the need for those items substantially, but that is about it.

Regardless of whether the game is marketed as PvE-centric, advertisements can change with shifts in the prevalence of content. Anecdotal account of PvE-bored vets jumping into Conclave also risk ignoring the not-insignificant number of players who try Conclave out at lower MR/time investment and find it off-putting because of the material barriers to entry created by dependence on PvE progression - a particularly great problem when Conclave's transparency is low and these new players how easy way to know the differences in balance paradigms between Conclave and PvE. Addressing these problems - at the very least, giving players a better way to start playing Conclave regardless of their progression in PvE - would likely help in capturing a larger segment of potential new players than you think.

17 hours ago, (XB1)Tylers Legend said:

I am all for removing the dependency of PVE to get resources and Warframes and weapon's, but to an extent. I do not want to see PVP as a separate game, but as another fun way to enjoy the game and progress in level.

To ease newer players into Conclave, there needs to be servers with a match making system based on experience, your K:D ratio, and Mastery.
 Maybe DE can bring ranked matches to the conclave.

@Lemonpartydragon

 

Matchmaking should definitely be better, but as it stands Conclave's playerbase is not big enough to merit sweeping matchmaking changes. I think our first priority should be urging DE to make changes that allow basic Conclave play to be more accessible, independent, and transparent for any given player regardless of PvE achievement.

12 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I don't think Conclave should be severed completely from the rest of the game. Weapons and Warframes are balanced and seeing another player do good with a certain frame gives incentive to players to go out and seek those new frames and experiment all the content available. In fact I would prefer if Conclave had more impact on the rest of the game by making the (mostly sidegrade or gimmick) mods (except maybe the mobility ones) usable in PvE (which wouldn't terribly affect pve balance now that Riven mods exist)

What Conclave mostly needs for now has been stated countless times:

-Server browser, or at least a better matchmaking that throws you always on a server with at least 1 person.

-Make all conclave mods be standing rewards, that way you can clearly see what mods are available and work for them.

-A little better marketing, DE could organize a "tournament" now that we have dedicated servers and offer prizes to both participants and winners, it could be advertised with trailers consisting of a speech by Teshin with some videoclips submitted by players thrown in.

-Completing matches awarding both credits and resources so you can technically fund more weapons and frames by playing Conclave.

I imagine that the PvE game accomplishes the showcasing of varied frames and weapons quite well by itself; players already do seek out and experiment with content that they see for the few time(s).

I agree that most of those things are important for Conclave to grow and flourish, particularly the server browser and conversion of all mods to Standing rewards. I am not as sure about awarding resources - I think it would be easier to simply make Conclave-only weapons available for a Conclave-currency or to simply make all weapons initially available in Conclave regardless of PvE progression.

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@Lemonpartydragon

Agreed. PVE is not PVP and should not affect it the way it does. Players with more PVE gain should not be at an advantage.

I posted an Idea before that I really believe will help this. Sorry not trying to advertise my topic, only trying to relate with you. We see the same problem.

I gained another idea along with it.

Redeemable Standing that is awarded by continuous play with a drop chance based on experience (Mastery and K:D). Mastery will increase the consecutive matches needed to get the award more than K:D. The Redeemable Standing would be much like the Syndicate redeemables, but of course not found throughout the map, only awarded.

Personal purchasable Conclave challenges that offer Gear and component rewards for building your arsenal, Purchasable with credits and standing, the rewards and quantity of reward will vary with difficulty of the challenge and type of purchase.

This will promote long-term conclave play. Will boost the conclave player count. Allows players to increase their arsenal and progress in mastery.

Prime gear will stay as only PVE gain, I think this is fine if they are balanced right. They should only offer a slight difference in play style and different cosmetic look. We don't want to affect PVE. Other than giving prime gear this would cause no damage to PVE.

 

Edited by (XB1)Tylers Legend
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On 11/25/2016 at 8:10 AM, (XB1)Tylers Legend said:

@Lemonpartydragon

Agreed. PVE is not PVP and should not affect it the way it does. Players with more PVE gain should not be at an advantage.

I posted an Idea before that I really believe will help this. Sorry not trying to advertise my topic, only trying to relate with you. We see the same problem.

I gained another idea along with it.

Redeemable Standing that is awarded by continuous play with a drop chance based on experience (Mastery and K:D). Mastery will increase the consecutive matches needed to get the award more than K:D. The Redeemable Standing would be much like the Syndicate redeemables, but of course not found throughout the map, only awarded.

Personal purchasable Conclave challenges that offer Gear and component rewards for building your arsenal, Purchasable with credits and standing, the rewards and quantity of reward will vary with difficulty of the challenge and type of purchase.

This will promote long-term conclave play. Will boost the conclave player count. Allows players to increase their arsenal and progress in mastery.

Prime gear will stay as only PVE gain, I think this is fine if they are balanced right. They should only offer a slight difference in play style and different cosmetic look. We don't want to affect PVE. Other than giving prime gear this would cause no damage to PVE.

 

Reading your explanation here it makes much more sense than when I read your original thread. Honestly, though, I think you could probably dispense with the "purchased" element entirely; a weekly PvP-centric challenge mission with rewards from a basic pool of weapon blueprints/completed weapons seems nice. The question is how to separate it from the normal Conclave challenges.

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On 12/1/2016 at 2:56 PM, Lemonpartydragon said:

Reading your explanation here it makes much more sense than when I read your original thread. Honestly, though, I think you could probably dispense with the "purchased" element entirely; a weekly PvP-centric challenge mission with rewards from a basic pool of weapon blueprints/completed weapons seems nice. The question is how to separate it from the normal Conclave challenges.

 

Separating the purchasable challenges wouldn't be too hard, it would just have a separate tab in the conclave segment and interaction with Tenshin.

Edited the thread, I didn't think my thread was hard to read. Guess I clogged it will excessive input. I rewrote my topic more concisely and precisely.

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On 11/24/2016 at 5:36 AM, Nazrethim said:

 

-A little better marketing, DE could organize a "tournament" now that we have dedicated servers and offer prizes to both participants and winners, it could be advertised with trailers consisting of a speech by Teshin with some videoclips submitted by players thrown in.

 

I tried hosting a lunaro tournament with over 5k platinum rewards and nobody signed up except for one team LOL. hundreds of views and only 1 team applied. Tournament was supposed to start this december but I had to cancel it because there's no teams.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Seems like Developers should create two seperate games between PVE and PVP. I really don't see why they cram them together anymore. Everyone would happily go their own ways on the internet and the game itself. But you do run a risk when you cut out PVE and offer cosmetics to PVP players. I noted this when Strike Vector Ex came out. Excellent PVP game, sorta balanced, fun flight model, and hails from the Quake Arena pickups mentality. PVP only when it debuted on PC. Everyone loved it. But it died. Too hardcore was cited in early 2014. Jump to 2016, RageQuit adds a story mode and a skirmish mode against the Ai, and provided Ai bots to keep the rosters filled in a match. What happened was everyone joined one side and fought the bots to get the XP to unlock the cosmetics. Many a PVP player cried out for human on human fights, but the most part everyone switched over to kill the Ai, regardless. Strike Vector EX would make a great PVE game if it had been treated like warframe over Quake Arena. The Ai in the story mode is for poop, but when you get into a match, they pick up the pace. Those few Youtubers and some players over chat mistook them for actual human controlled opponents. Long story short, Warframe is a great PVE experience with a lacking PVP clarity, while Strike Vector seems it should've been a great PVP game with a PVE component that would fill it's servers, but the story sucked, and PVE -co-op players are cut out from any gains unless they play PVP, which ends up turing into a PVE match. Crazy right? 

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Before we completely sever Conlave progression with PvE progression, I'd like to see DE add more ways for Conclave to provide rewards that benefit the PvE side of things as well.

Give you the ability to get new 'frames before Typhoon rank, resources for new weapons, forma/reactors/catalysts or their BPs and maybe even a couple of PvE mods as well.

Letting you earn those through Conclave would not only reduce it's dependency on PvE, but it would also give players who currently only PvE a greater intensive to actually play Conclave once in a while: I'd almost bet real money that the day that the most Conclave matches were played in a very, very long time was yesterday when the Snowday Showdown Conclave Tac alert offered a fully built Catalyst.

If you completely, 100% sever Conclave from PvE, especially in option #1 (or even in Option #2) you might bring everyone on a 100% even footing, but you'll also give players absolutely 0 reason to ever play Conclave if they prefer PvE over PvP. Right now the fact a PvE vet might start on a better footing than most is pretty much the only thing to entice them to try.

7 hours ago, GenerationX3 said:

As long as cosmetics and anything that affects PvE is obtainable outside PvP it's fine with me.

Too late. Two sets of armor (the Riv Min-Guard and the Riv Comp-Guard) the Celestia Syandana, and 31 weapon skins are acquirable only through Conclave, and the Rive Elite-Guard armor that you can buy with plat can be earned plat-free through Conclave as well.

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What if low MR weapons were purchasable with Conclave Standing?

We already have the 3 starter warframes (Excalibur, Mag, and Volt) available for 50k Conclave Standing each, why not add low MR weapons into the Conclave store, such as the Karak, Latron, Vulkar, etc. for maybe about 15k Standing, so that PVP players can obtain weapons that aren't difficult to obtain in PvE without the need to farm resources?

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