Saryn Needs To Be Reworked, Again.

[Issxi]

As a solo Saryn, I can't do anything without dying. My abilities cost TOO much energy, you are required to press all her abilities consecutively to even get a minuscule payoff. Her health and armor is laughable as she can be one shot by almost anything. She is still slow and cumbersome. Her Molt works SOMETIMES as a distraction and the only redeeming factor about her is Viral, which again takes up almost your entire energy pool to get off once.

Can you PLEASE take a second look at her rework finally?

The only time I see Saryns is in relays to look good or in Defense missions hiding in an enemy spawn spamming all her abilities in the corner with max range most likely using a Simulor. She isn't fun. She can't survive half as good as even some of the trashier frames, not to mention to even have a slim chance of survival you are REQUIRED to have Regenerative Molt, Energy Restores, and Naramon:Shadow Step. She has too many prerequisites to her payoffs and only fits one style of play: Viral Debuffer & Trinity Lover.

She is still by far the worst rework done so far.

 

At least, can someone give me a good end-game Solo build for her? Nothing I mod onto her works.

I will never stop my crusade against her rework. Pressing 4 to win is bad, but Pressing 2-1-3-4 in the exact order EVERY TIME is worse and more importantly not fun. Please for the love of Lotus redo her rework.

[Gelkor]

I almost never press 4. Just 3 and 1 and occasionally 2 as I cleave through enemies spreading Toxin and Viral.

[heskaroid]

Step one: Find a spore build

Step two: Use hikou prime with a gas build and some mod that makes its shurikens explode (Forgot its name)

Step 3: Cast spore, press your M1, there, the entire map is infected with toxic spores.

[tnccs215]

How do you play her? While by no means the best player, I quite enjoy and believe to know how to play her. While she isnt tanky by any means, she isnt *that* squishy either, and she's a terrific mob killer. Maybe knowing how you play and mod her can help us pin down the problems?

Edited November 25, 2016 by tnccs215

[Wolfglaive]

11 minutes ago, Xylyssa said:

-snip-

She's tanky as hell, Quick Thinking, Rage, Vitality and Lifestrike. You don't need energy restores, nor do you really need Regen Molt. And Naramon helps on level 100+ simply  by nature of their damage output, but it's not expressly necessary for her otherwise. 

[Issxi]

5 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

How do you play her? While by no means the best player, I quite enjoy and believe to know how to play her. While she isnt tanky by any means, she isnt *that* squishy either, and she's a terrible effective mob killer. Maybe knowing how you play and mod her can help us pin down the problems?

Here is my build:

The way I play her is I try to not die, which evidently happens a lot regardless of how aggressive or passive I play.

[Jakorak]

ok so i've had a burning question i've been meaning to ask. I hope someone can answer. As someone who literally just casts spore on an enemy or the molt once with max range and uses literally any aoe weapon to spread the spores with gas to carry toxin procs around, What is the purpose of casting spores 30 times on your molt, then releasing them all at once? My understanding of the way spores work doesn't see any benefit from that.

[Wolfglaive]

3 minutes ago, Jakorak said:

ok so i've had a burning question i've been meaning to ask. I hope someone can answer. As someone who literally just casts spore on an enemy or the molt once with max range and uses literally any aoe weapon to spread the spores with gas to carry toxin procs around, What is the purpose of casting spores 30 times on your molt, then releasing them all at once? My understanding of the way spores work doesn't see any benefit from that.

There isn't a benefit to popping all of them at once. Spores on Molt cost less per cast, but you don't need to be the one to pop them, enemies are taunted by Molt and will attack and spread spores naturally off of it, so casting a few times provides more spores for them to hit. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Wolfglaive

[Gelkor]

6 minutes ago, Xylyssa said:

Here is my build:

The way I play her is I try to not die, which evidently happens a lot regardless of how aggressive or passive I play.

You need to get some strength on there, for both damage and for Regenerative Molt to be useful (it scales with STR). Use Rage and Toxic Lash to handle your energy, I only use Streamline on mine.  Also put another Forma on and max your Stretch and Streamline.

I play her as a brawler frame. Keep Toxic Lash up, Spore an enemy, hit that enemy with melee, hit all the enemies with spores on them with Toxic Lashed melee, this will keep your energy regenerating and spread toxin and viral based on your melee damage to everything. 

Molt when you need to, Miasma when you need an AoE Stun. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Gelkor

[Jakorak]

1 minute ago, Wolfglaive said:

There isn't a benefit to popping all of them at once. Spores on Molt cost less per cast, but you don't need to be the one to pop them, enemies are taunted by Molt and will attack and spread spores naturally off of it, so casting a few times provides more spores for them to hit. 

that's what i thought. however, a surprising number of saryn players seem to think layering more spores onto your molt before casting 3 and meleeing them all off at once will result in 'more damage'

[Gelkor]

Just now, Jakorak said:

that's what i thought. however, a surprising number of saryn players seem to think layering more spores onto your molt before casting 3 and meleeing them all off at once will result in 'more damage'

Toxic Lashing the Spores on your molt doen't pass toxin proc near as I can tell, only using Toxic Lash'ed weapons on enemies spreads the toxin proc.

Idunno, if I'm meta farming I pop all my spores at once with a ground slam, as only 3 spores spread with each popped spore, and I need to spread it to at least 20 targets at a time. 

[Rambit23Z]

Saryn is just fine. She just requires more effort to survive with. I play a melee Saryn without Regenerative Molt/Restores/Shadow Step. The trick to surviving is using the block function as Toxic Lash can increase any weapon's damage reduction to 90%. Then that last 10% is further reduced by her armour.

As Gelkor said, you need some strength. Damage from popped spores also scales on strength.

My build:

https://goo.gl/Os69bM

[ComfyOlivia]

Not the worst rework ever.

 

Maybe just the worst for a solo player. In a Co-Op game.

 

I would say some additional tweaks are needed, but she's easily one of the top level high tier AOE DPS frames in the game with a good squad comp.

I think I at least kinda know what I'm talking about after nearly 70,000 kills between Saryn and Saryn Prime.

Edited November 25, 2016 by CoRRh

[Misgenesis]

Im gonna pull the ''shes been my main since her release'' card and tell you youre wrong.

Heres my general build. I solo with this all the time.

Spoiler

You absolutely are not required to use all her abilities to get a payoff. Spores alone do a great job at weakening enemies, toxin spread and Miasma on top are just bonus to finish off. Her effective HP is above average, though the health nerf she got was unjustified.

Slow and cumbersome can be said of other frames too. Molt regularly makes enemies completely ignore and run past me if its placed well. Get some range in your build if Spore of all things sucks all your energy. Shes easily the most fun and among the most balanced frames currently.

Use spore to weaken and molt to tank any incoming damage. And lastly, you dont have to use all of her abilities at once to get a payoff. Use a weapon with high status and mod some toxin or gas in there.

She doesnt need a rework but a few tweaks.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Misgenesis

[Dreddeth]

Every warframe has a skill floor, a minimum competence requirement to make basic use of the full complexities of their kit. Excalibur, for example, has a low floor. Saryn herself has a pretty high one.

1 minute ago, Xylyssa said:

Here is my build:

The way I play her is I try to not die, which evidently happens a lot regardless of how aggressive or passive I play.

That negative Power Strength is why you're not dealing any damage, and that sad, lonely little Vitality with no accompanying Steel Fiber is why you're dying a lot. Stretch alone is more than enough for a Spore or Toxic Lash build, and I don't even use it myself, preferring Steel Fiber and Redirection, the latter of which I suppose I could drop for Intensify.

Miasma is basically useless unless everything around you is already procced up. Think of it as the quick-detonation switch for the time bombs of your procs. Toxic Lash should always be on if you're building for it, and regardless of whether you're building for Toxic Lash or Spore, you should definitely cast Spore frequently, though not necessarily spamming it since it can spread and refresh itself. Also, Toxic Lash with some Power Strength gives you great frontal damage mitigation. Molt is basically for healing, setting Spore bombs, extending Miasma's range a bit, and shedding aggro, so you should be casting it probably third most frequently, less than Toxic Lash but more than Miasma.

[Jakorak]

3 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

Toxic Lashing the Spores on your molt doen't pass toxin proc near as I can tell, only using Toxic Lash'ed weapons on enemies spreads the toxin proc.

Idunno, if I'm meta farming I pop all my spores at once with a ground slam, as only 3 spores spread with each popped spore, and I need to spread it to at least 20 targets at a time. 

? spores spreads 3 per target within range. 1 spore being popped will place 3 spores on every target within range that doesn't already have spores on them. This is why aoe weapons are so amazing for spores because the aoe range will pop all the spores on multiple foes, removing spores and replacing them with fresh new ones and why i'm so confused by people layering multiple spores onto a molt before spreading them all at once.

[Gelkor]

1 minute ago, CoRRh said:

Just the worst for a solo player. In a Co-Op game.

I wouldn't even say she's the worst for a solo player. As someone who really enjoys solo-melee mode she's a great frame, and a nice change of pace from some of the other brawler frames that are a bit more straightforward in your face. 

[ComfyOlivia]

Just now, Gelkor said:

I wouldn't even say she's the worst for a solo player. As someone who really enjoys solo-melee mode she's a great frame, and a nice change of pace from some of the other brawler frames that are a bit more straightforward in your face. 

Roger. Don't do much solo myself. The way I play Saryn relies heavily on squadmates.

[Gelkor]

6 minutes ago, Jakorak said:

? spores spreads 3 per target within range. 1 spore being popped will place 3 spores on every target within range that doesn't already have spores on them. This is why aoe weapons are so amazing for spores because the aoe range will pop all the spores on multiple foes, removing spores and replacing them with fresh new ones and why i'm so confused by people layering multiple spores onto a molt before spreading them all at once.

Well, I'm just talking about meta farming on her. In regular missions on my brawler build I just cast spore once on a target and go to town with Toxic Lash Galatine Prime. Or if I'm feeling lazy Combustion Beam Quanta Vandal.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Gelkor

[xXDeadsinxX]

She doesn't need a rework, she by far has the best syenrgy with her abilities and the damage is insane.

[ThatOddDeer]

Oh boy, my favorite kind of thread because I get to educate people on how saryn doesn't work as advertised and she has numerous anti-synergy built within her kit.

For preliminary reading, and to amuse those curious enough and that care enough, here's documentation on the issues.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/3ru0o3/multiple_toxin_lash_dots_do_not_copy_after_spore/

 

Spore: As the above link shows with toxic lash, spore does not properly accumulate toxin procs upon spreading. Even if it did, due to the max spore limit and spore's inability to replace existing spores Spore would not be able to transfer toxin procs. Anti-synergy count: 1

That means using the ignis, torid and hikou prime just means you're abusing the nonexistent refresh rate on spore and its base damage than even using her mechanics. By extension this means a Gas Lanka/tonkor/launcher is the only valid way of spreading your procs in a meaningful way.

Furthermore, lets get onto the subject of toxin procs becoming obsolete once spread. Even if you built up a huge toxin proc and spread it to enemies with a spore that could replace old spores, as soon as its spread that entire amount of toxin damage can never be spread again. All those enemies would have to have their own toxin 'meter' built up again which doesn't work due to you only ever being able to spread 1 toxin proc regardless of how many you build up. Anti-synergy count: 2

 

Molt: Doesn't scale at all. Was asked to scale in the rework and all we got was half off spores, slightly boosted miasma damage and doubled duration, without fixing the bug with its aggro drawing or lack thereoff. Unlike tectonics, decoy, or snowglobe, molt does not scale with enemy level at all. Even with ridiculous power strength, it melts in sub a second against regular old sortie enemies, I'm talking about sub 2k hp that doesn't benefit from armor,  not even endgame enemies where your frame choice actually matters. It's toxin damage is laughable, you can't build up a toxin proc on it like an enemy( anti-synergy count: 3) even IF spore worked as intended. 

 

Toxic Lash: why this was nerfed from 70% to 30% is beyond me, it was already considered weak and useless and then combined with the ehp nerfs on non-prime saryn made it even more unusable. Let's start off with the fact that it's only ever 50% useable, unlike Speed or Warcry which are 50% effective at worst and 100% effective AND are team buffs, as you can't block AND melee at the same time, ever. Anti-synergy count: 4

Then you factor in blocking limited to 90%, and most meta weapons have 85% to start with, thus wasting most of its power budget.

Then we get to the energy restore. The way this is programmed actually punishes you for building damage as if you kill an enemy in 1 shot, you waste the extra spores, and you don't get the energy, you get the "killed an enemy but didn't pop the spore" 50% spread range reduction penalty AND you only spread 1 spore instead of multiple.

Anti-synergy count: 5

 

Miasma: This ability doesn't have synergy. This ability has co-dependency.

Synergy- the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.

Miasma is an energy hog that does less damage per energy with a full combo than a reckoning with equal power strength. Just, reckoning also has the ability to CC all enemy types without relying on enemy animation types (volt's 4 shares this problem), blind enemies not struck, AND has a chance to heal teammates in lower level missions and rarely in higher level missions.

 

Miasma has a 0% status chance, doesn't remove armor (but avalanche does wtf?) and deals piddly damage per energy if you pull off the whole combo than an ability not listed as a nuke but rather a nuke/cc hybrid. Totally fair and balanced and fun :^)

Anti-synergy count:6

 

Thank you for reading this long wall

 

TL;DR

Saryn's abilities don't work as intended, except miasma which is just horribly undertuned, and the popular weapons on her are actually really bad at high level play. 

[Issxi]

8 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Oh boy, my favorite kind of thread because I get to educate people on how saryn doesn't work as advertised and she has numerous anti-synergy built within her kit.

For preliminary reading, and to amuse those curious enough and that care enough, here's documentation on the issues.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/3ru0o3/multiple_toxin_lash_dots_do_not_copy_after_spore/

 

Spore: As the above link shows with toxic lash, spore does not properly accumulate toxin procs upon spreading. Even if it did, due to the max spore limit and spore's inability to replace existing spores Spore would not be able to transfer toxin procs. Anti-synergy count: 1

That means using the ignis, torid and hikou prime just means you're abusing the nonexistent refresh rate on spore and its base damage than even using her mechanics. By extension this means a Gas Lanka/tonkor/launcher is the only valid way of spreading your procs in a meaningful way.

Furthermore, lets get onto the subject of toxin procs becoming obsolete once spread. Even if you built up a huge toxin proc and spread it to enemies with a spore that could replace old spores, as soon as its spread that entire amount of toxin damage can never be spread again. All those enemies would have to have their own toxin 'meter' built up again which doesn't work due to you only ever being able to spread 1 toxin proc regardless of how many you build up. Anti-synergy count: 2

 

Molt: Doesn't scale at all. Was asked to scale in the rework and all we got was half off spores, slightly boosted miasma damage and doubled duration, without fixing the bug with its aggro drawing or lack thereoff. Unlike tectonics, decoy, or snowglobe, molt does not scale with enemy level at all. Even with ridiculous power strength, it melts in sub a second against regular old sortie enemies, I'm talking about sub 2k hp that doesn't benefit from armor,  not even endgame enemies where your frame choice actually matters. It's toxin damage is laughable, you can't build up a toxin proc on it like an enemy( anti-synergy count: 3) even IF spore worked as intended. 

 

Toxic Lash: why this was nerfed from 70% to 30% is beyond me, it was already considered weak and useless and then combined with the ehp nerfs on non-prime saryn made it even more unusable. Let's start off with the fact that it's only ever 50% useable, unlike Speed or Warcry which are 50% effective at worst and 100% effective AND are team buffs, as you can't block AND melee at the same time, ever. Anti-synergy count: 4

Then you factor in blocking limited to 90%, and most meta weapons have 85% to start with, thus wasting most of its power budget.

Then we get to the energy restore. The way this is programmed actually punishes you for building damage as if you kill an enemy in 1 shot, you waste the extra spores, and you don't get the energy, you get the "killed an enemy but didn't pop the spore" 50% spread range reduction penalty AND you only spread 1 spore instead of multiple.

Anti-synergy count: 5

 

Miasma: This ability doesn't have synergy. This ability has co-dependency.

Synergy- the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.

Miasma is an energy hog that does less damage per energy with a full combo than a reckoning with equal power strength. Just, reckoning also has the ability to CC all enemy types without relying on enemy animation types (volt's 4 shares this problem), blind enemies not struck, AND has a chance to heal teammates in lower level missions and rarely in higher level missions.

 

Miasma has a 0% status chance, doesn't remove armor (but avalanche does wtf?) and deals piddly damage per energy if you pull off the whole combo than an ability not listed as a nuke but rather a nuke/cc hybrid. Totally fair and balanced and fun :^)

Anti-synergy count:6

 

Thank you for reading this long wall

 

TL;DR

Saryn's abilities don't work as intended, except miasma which is just horribly undertuned, and the popular weapons on her are actually really bad at high level play. 

I didn't know Saryn was THAT broken.. Now I'm even more depressed knowing they probably won't fix her. :(

[Gelkor]

27 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Oh boy, my favorite kind of thread because I get to educate people on how saryn doesn't work as advertised and she has numerous anti-synergy built within her kit.

I don't think any of us were talking about how she is advertised and what things do on paper, just what we currently do with her and our experiences playing her at various levels of play.

[Issxi]

Still, if she doesn't work at all then they really need to fix her.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Xylyssa

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, Gelkor said:

I don't think any of us were talking about how she is advertised and what things do on paper, just what we currently do with her and our experiences playing her at various levels of play.

It was more or less poking fun at the person directly above me, not at  the people showing what's passable.