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Can't believe new Bladestorm will still make enemies invulnerable


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The reason (as others have stated before me) is that killing a marked enemy will result in a bugged ash. So they could have done something much simpler: Allow players to damage a marked enemy up until they have 1 health left, and let ash do the rest. With the Ancient Disruptors and other such enemies, it'll be a huge buff. While the ash takes forever, you can damage it yourself, and let the ash move on with his boring cinematic, finishing off the now 1-health enemy.

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what gets me is while i am marking enemies, my cell mates will be killing them before i get a chance to use it.

ALso the energy costs per an attack is higher then the original/old version.   I rather be using a fatal teleport build that mobility and duration for smoke screen now, then bother with bladestorm

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20 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Because they cannot rework it, unless they completely change the way the engine interacts with Finishers. Ash's Bladestorm animation lock on enemies is necessary lest Ash stops functioning completely due to team mates being able to kill its intended target during the animation. Do you remember that old Ash bug from early 2015 where killing off the target Ash had clicked 4 on to start BS would result in Ash getting permanently locked out of the mission, invulnerable and unable to act? That's because the enegine basically cannot interrupt some animations mid-way.

All finishers fall in this category. So yeah, it basically means that it's un unsolvable problem currently. Though it could be made better - for instance, are his clones spreading out? They really shouldn't. All three should sistematically perform attacks on one target till death and then move to the next. That alone would reduce a lot of the frustration (3 random enemies locked that switch constantly at really high speed is way worse than one that takes some more time before the switching happens).

Honestly, why wasting a rework opportunity like this? It's not like Ash rework had a deadline so it had to be rushed in the best way possible: Bladestorm needed a complete ulti rework like Excalibur did? Fine, just take your time and go for it!

These changes will simply make Ash way less effective without solving the main issue:

- You either mark 3 enemies at the time and kill them or by the time you marked 10/20 they're all dead already before you press 4 to release the Bladestorm, unless you're in solo

- You will be able to use Ash to attack tough enemies multiple times, which sounds ok but it's definitely not the most effective approach these days

- You are still bloody watching 20 seconds of clones performing attacks without your teammates being able to do anything

I mean, Bladestorm will turn into a very quick attack or a multiple one on very high level single enemies, which will be quite situational; I understand the ability is hard to fix, but then why not completely rework it like with Exalted Blade? Make clones spawning like actual specters and attacking enemies around, or just get rid of clones and have Ash being teleported to one enemy to attack, then camera in slow motion so you can chose another enemy around and be teleported to it performing an attack and so on, with number of attacks depending on Power Strenght.

Dunno, those were just 2 ideas that I got while I was typing this post so they're probably terrible, but still, I don't get why shipping a half rework which is not good for both Ash players and teammates; the only good thing is being able to move and use weapons while marking for Bladestorm, but then again: what's the need of Bladestorm then? By the time you marked enough enemies either you or your teammates will have them killed already.

 

As always, testing is needed as I'm basing my thoughts on words during Devstreams and Prime Time demonstration, but still the premises are not the best.

Edited by siralextraffo
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2 minutes ago, SoulEchelon said:

Someone doesn't know how to play Saryn.

Miasma is garbage. All her damage is in spores now. I love when people tell me i dont know how to play. Let's play a game together, both as Saryn, I'll take you to the cleaners.

Edited by Skaleek
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7 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Miasma is garbage. All her damage is in spores now. I love when people tell me i dont know how to play. Let's play a game together, both as Saryn, I'll take you to the cleaners.

Yes, Miasma needs some kind of stack synergy...they turned it into Volt's original Overload without the stun...it isn't quite as effective as a spore bomb finish as it should be.

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73
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1 minute ago, SoulEchelon said:

You use Miasma as her final hit in her combo to activate the huge amount of aoe damage the spores do. So no, Miasma is not "garbage".

It's not worth the energy to cast, yeah it is. I'd rather use spore and toxic lash and melee with my orthos prime then waste the 2-3 seconds it takes to cast miasma only to do a pittance of extra damage that will be less than the melee swing of the orthos P. Its a garbage skill, seriously, even with the synergy between the skills i cant justify the energy cost in my build, mostly because i have - efficiency because i only use spores. You can try using miasma to wrap up your damage but youre losing energy and time that could be used popping more spores with toxic lash.

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1 minute ago, Skaleek said:

It's not worth the energy to cast, yeah it is. I'd rather use spore and toxic lash and melee with my orthos prime then waste the 2-3 seconds it takes to cast miasma only to do a pittance of extra damage that will be less than the melee swing of the orthos P. Its a garbage skill, seriously, even with the synergy between the skills i cant justify the energy cost in my build, mostly because i have - efficiency because i only use spores. You can try using miasma to wrap up your damage but youre losing energy and time that could be used popping more spores with toxic lash.

So it's only garbage because of your particular build. Okay.

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6 minutes ago, SoulEchelon said:

So it's only garbage because of your particular build. Okay.

No its garbage because regardless of build its not worth the time to cast or the energy cost. Like i said, if you're gonna come into the thread and tell me "I dont know how to play Saryn", you better be willing to back it up in game. I take it as a personal insult if someone says that to me, and I'm more than willing to put myself to the test, because i consider myself highly skilled in most, if not all warframes. When i say Miasma is garbage, i am highly confident in the statement, because I've tried to make it work with various builds, and it's always come out lacking.

An argument can be made for a pure efficiency build and using it as a 4 second stun, but other then that, it's just lackluster now, and I think they should buff/polish it. Also, i dont want bladestorm to share the same fate as Miasma. Which is why i said what I said.

Edited by Skaleek
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2 minutes ago, SoulEchelon said:

So it's only garbage because of your particular build. Okay.

I love arguments like this in a positive sense...but I'm going to have to agree with Skaleek here...

Building for spore effectiveness > building for Miasma finisher.

They shouldn't work against each other.

Miasma needs to be fast-cast and/or cheaper, or do specialized "spore finisher" damage (augment mod anyone?) to be worth it as a "4ltimate".

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1 hour ago, NativeKiller said:

a full minute

 

a full minute

 

A FULL MINUTE

 

A FULL MINUTE

Ha ha ha but I was exaggerating..So again we need to nerf ashes 4th ability more because of this? His 4th would be borderline worthless if DE did what people here are suggesting.  How do you feel about mirage breaking the game with her synoid simulor? Covering the map and killing everything in sight while causing frame rate drops/crashes on low end PC's..I would think that's more annoying and affects more people then ashes 4th.

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2 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

No its garbage because regardless of build its not worth the time to cast or the energy cost.

It's an ability based off of synergy, yes. It's not strong on its own, yes. Is it "garbage"? Nope. And trying to compare it to the new bladestorm without said ability even coming out is literally gearing yourself for disappointment. That sort of thought process is what's making this forum so toxic lately. Heck the only synergy between abilities they reported was that the new bladestorm costs LESS energy if you're invisible. That's it. Stop being a doomsayer when there's no evidence to back up your claim.

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9 minutes ago, SoulEchelon said:

It's an ability based off of synergy, yes. It's not strong on its own, yes. Is it "garbage"? Nope. And trying to compare it to the new bladestorm without said ability even coming out is literally gearing yourself for disappointment. That sort of thought process is what's making this forum so toxic lately. Heck the only synergy between abilities they reported was that the new bladestorm costs LESS energy if you're invisible. That's it. Stop being a doomsayer when there's no evidence to back up your claim.

 

27 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Without testing it, its hard to comment. But i have an inkling suspicion it will turn ash's bladestorm into what saryn's rework did to miasma. Garbage.

All I can do is speculate right now, but on paper, i don't like it. So that's my feedback, I'm actually very frustrated they didnt remove the npc invulnerability, seeing as thats the number 1 complaint regarding Ash's current bladestorm. If i play it, and its great, and I'm wrong, I'm more than willing to come back in here and say "I was wrong".

Edited by Skaleek
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1 minute ago, Skaleek said:

 

 

Yeah, saying that and then saying it's going to be garbage kind of invalidates your little disclaimer. That's like saying "Yeah I don't know the future and it's hard to comment about this, but I thiiiiink hellspawn is going to manifest in my city real soon." Giving a disclaimer, then making a huge, heavily implicated statement is what Trump did to win the white house. Don't be Trump.

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1 minute ago, SoulEchelon said:

Yeah, saying that and then saying it's going to be garbage kind of invalidates your little disclaimer. That's like saying "Yeah I don't know the future and it's hard to comment about this, but I thiiiiink hellspawn is going to manifest in my city real soon." Giving a disclaimer, then making a huge, heavily implicated statement is what Trump did to win the white house. Don't be Trump.

in a heated argument. you should definitely bring politics into it, that will totally make it better

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9 minutes ago, SoulEchelon said:

Yeah, saying that and then saying it's going to be garbage kind of invalidates your little disclaimer. That's like saying "Yeah I don't know the future and it's hard to comment about this, but I thiiiiink hellspawn is going to manifest in my city real soon." Giving a disclaimer, then making a huge, heavily implicated statement is what Trump did to win the white house. Don't be Trump.

What i said, is that from what Im reading, and seeing from the notes, that the skill is getting the miasma treatment. I think it's going to be far less effective after its rework than it is now. I think thats a really reasonable statement, and like i said, if I'm wrong, i am not above saying so. From what i've seen so far, all signs point to this being the case. As much as I dislike Donald Trump, if you're going to compare me to the president of the Unites States of America, i suppose it could be far worse.

Also, if hellspawn had spawned in my city one year before, due to similar circumstances, then i think i would be perfectly justified in predicting it happening again.

Edited by Skaleek
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So there's been recent back & forth regarding some folks who seem to be okay with the fact that Ash makes enemies immune for what may as well be no reason at all (if it's an engine issue, scrap the ability for being mechanically bad) and those who actually expect to not be irritated by a dead weight ally who can't deal proper damage to a foe.  So that this notion I'll pose a simple question;

Why does Ash get to call dibs, without exception, on an enemy?

In other situations, AoE or not, it's about just dealing damage.  Multiple allies can even deal damage to the same foe at the same time if it happens to be a tankier foe in higher level play.  While the usual AoE spam can get old for some folks, it doesn't actively lock allies out of being able to act at all.  If a Simulor spam session fails to kill targets other players are allowed to shoot those targets, to engage in gameplay alongside said AoE. When you go get up in enemy level said AoE spam will fall off a bit versus the enemies with higher EHP values.  Allies shoot those enemies all together, or use abilities mostly together.  You're not warrantlessly locking out the option for teamplay.

But not Bladestorm.  When Ash is dancing with a foe nobody else can do anything to that foe.  The further you progress upwards the more and more tiresome it becomes, of course even faster when going versus the Infested due to Ancient Disruptors and Ash being fated slow tango partners.

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1 minute ago, Skaleek said:

What i said, is that from what Im reading, and seeing from the notes, that the skill is getting the miasma treatment. I think it's going to be far less effective after its rework than it is now. I think thats a really reasonable statement, and like i said, if I'm wrong, i am not above saying so. From what i've seen so far, all signs point to this being the case. As much as I dislike Donald trump, if you're going to compare me to the president of the Unites States of America, i suppose it could be far worse.

Gleaning a compliment out of that is like polishing a turd. I suggest not putting it on your mantle.

And it's reasonable to be wary. It's reasonable to be suspicious. However all signs do not point to his new bladestorm being "garbage" or even anything like Saryn's. Saryn's is pure synergy. Ash's only synergizes with being invisible, and that doesn't raise his damage output. Did you even watch the latest Prime Time where they actually showed off the ability and how it worked? There's more energy consumption, which can be mitigated by being invisible. They removed his need to stop when using smokescreen. You now have to "paint" targets. You must have line of sight. Every single thing else, according to Rebecca herself, is still the same. Ash still does all the insane amounts of damage he used to, only now, you have to actually play the game a little more to have a similar outcome. No more standing in one spot and pressing one button.

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SO lemme  get this straight.  invulnerability is staying.  You have to spend extra time targeting when you can just straight up shoot them instead.  and it's going to cost more energy?  I...why?  If this ability is proving too difficult for DE to fix why not just scrap it and create a new ultimate in it's place?  I mean it wouldn't be the first time they've gotten rid of an ability.  Personally I don't understand why they can't just code it so if ash is on his last enemy that it does all the remaining strikes worth of damage into a single hit.

I don't know code so I can't say how difficult that would be.  But it seems so simple.  This "rework" won't kill him tho.  He's still got seeking shuriken or that fatal teleport setup.

 

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36 minutes ago, SoulEchelon said:

Gleaning a compliment out of that is like polishing a turd. I suggest not putting it on your mantle.

And it's reasonable to be wary. It's reasonable to be suspicious. However all signs do not point to his new bladestorm being "garbage" or even anything like Saryn's. Saryn's is pure synergy. Ash's only synergizes with being invisible, and that doesn't raise his damage output. Did you even watch the latest Prime Time where they actually showed off the ability and how it worked? There's more energy consumption, which can be mitigated by being invisible. They removed his need to stop when using smokescreen. You now have to "paint" targets. You must have line of sight. Every single thing else, according to Rebecca herself, is still the same. Ash still does all the insane amounts of damage he used to, only now, you have to actually play the game a little more to have a similar outcome. No more standing in one spot and pressing one button.

I did watch it, and from what I saw, it looks much less effective than it is now. It is effectively single targetting what used to be a huge bomb dropped in a room. Which wouldnt bug me too much, but they left in the problems that made the skill so infuriating, the npc invulnerability. Also they've maxed out the number of attacks on a single enemy to 3? i think. Which is not the case of the old skill. The old skill i believe the max was 18 if you bladestormed a single target. This might actually be nice, due to getting locked on ancient disruptors, but seriously, unless the damage was pumped up, its still much less effective than the current bladestorm, whether it is interactive or not, and the major problems with the skill are still present (npc invulnerability).

The synergy was artificially created. They upped the cost on bladestorm, and then said, Oh but if you go invis you can reduce the cost. So effectively they created this false sense of synergy. This makes it harder to use, not easier, for no apparent reason or purpose. That's not good design, in my personal opinion. It's not rewarding the player, its adding extra hoops to jump through just to bring the skill back to what it's baseline used to be. By the way, this is EXACTLY what they did to Miasma. In order to get the same damage as the old Miasma(actually its still less by virtue of having to wait for it to do the damage over time, rather then the frontloaded damage of the old Miasma), you have to apply viral and toxic procs. You jump through hoops to get the exact same result as the old, one button push ability. See why i say bladestorm appears to be getting the miasma treatment?

What I would have preferred, was something like; If you're invis while using bladestorm, you attack 50% faster, thereby increasing the execution speed and upping the killspeed, and rewarding you. That is the kind of synergy that i would find rewarding.

Edited by Skaleek
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1 minute ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

SO lemme  get this straight.  invulnerability is staying.  You have to spend extra time targeting when you can just straight up shoot them instead.  and it's going to cost more energy?  I...why?  If this ability is proving too difficult for DE to fix why not just scrap it and create a new ultimate in it's place?  I mean it wouldn't be the first time they've gotten rid of an ability.  Personally I don't understand why they can't just code it so if ash is on his last enemy that it does all the remaining strikes worth of damage into a single hit.

I don't know code so I can't say how difficult that would be.  But it seems so simple.  This "rework" won't kill him tho.  He's still got seeking shuriken or that fatal teleport setup.

 

"What's the point of doing anything if something else can do it too? Why use guns if you have WoF? Why use anything but the Simulor? The answer is that's for you to decide. You choose how to play the game. You make the choices based on the tools you have however you see fit." - Rebecca

also, you can kill enemies while they're marked for bladestorm.

 

So....yeah, this whole thread is dead in the water.

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