Some Feedback on Ash's rework after watching Prime Time

[Weirdiolio]

Hey all. So after watching prime time, Ash's rework definately does seem better than initially described. However, I still have two points of feedback that I feel need to be addressed.

 

1. Make bladestorm's new target mode toggle-able. For instance, have it be a tap to enable marking, and hold to start the attack. This would mean less wasted energy, as well as the ability to cancel an attack on a disrupter.

EDIT: Tap to enable marking, tap again to cancel. Hold to engage attack.

2.Allow the augment Fatal Teleport to dissolve corpses. This would allow for fatal teleport to still have a place with the new bladestorm, as a stealthy, cheap, and single target elimination. Without this, I feel that there's little to no reason to use fatal teleport.

 

As for further feedback, I'll have to wait until I get my hands on it.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Weirdiolio
Clarified Suggestion

[LSG501]

You do know that the new bladestorm (which I don't like) is already a toggle.... you press 4 to activate marking, wiggle your mouse over the enemies a few times, then press 4 to attack them... each actual attack costing 15 energy....

[Weirdiolio]

Just now, LSG501 said:

You do know that the new bladestorm (which I don't like) is already a toggle.... you press 4 to activate marking, wiggle your mouse over the enemies a few times, then press 4 to attack them... each actual attack costing 15 energy....

What I mean is that you'd be able to tap it again to disable marking, and cancel the attack.

[Nazzami]

Just now, LSG501 said:

each actual attack costing 15 energy....

each mark is at a base 15 energy (without mods) reduced to 10 in stealth from any source (without mods again) if the target dies with a unused mark on them the energy is refunded.

[Shuuro]

I think what he is trying to describe, is pressing 4 will toggle it on, allow you to mark, then "pressing" it again, would turn it off, and return all your energy, no blade storm. While "holding" while enemies are marked will activate blade storm

[LSG501]

1 minute ago, Nazzami said:

each mark is at a base 15 energy (without mods) reduced to 10 in stealth from any source (without mods again) if the target dies with a unused mark on them the energy is refunded.

thats why I said actual attack.... it's still a hell of a lot more energy than it is no even if you build for efficiency.  Not many people build for stealth on ash and I doubt that will change if people continue to play it so we might as well ignore the stealth reduction imo.

2 minutes ago, Weirdiolio said:

What I mean is that you'd be able to tap it again to disable marking, and cancel the attack.

Why... if you don't trigger the attack and the enemy gets killed you get the energy back.  It's likely been done like this so we don't run around with active 100% of the time...got to keep things nerfed...

[Weirdiolio]

2 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

thats why I said actual attack.... it's still a hell of a lot more energy than it is no even if you build for efficiency.  Not many people build for stealth on ash and I doubt that will change if people continue to play it so we might as well ignore the stealth reduction imo.

Why... if you don't trigger the attack and the enemy gets killed you get the energy back.  It's likely been done like this so we don't run around with active 100% of the time...got to keep things nerfed...

I don't see why you're arguing about such a simple change. All it does is allow the user to cancel the attack. Lets say you accidentally targeted a disrupter that for whatever reason you can't kill. Instead of being stuck attacking it, why not just be allowed to cancel, and choose another target?

[LSG501]

2 minutes ago, Weirdiolio said:

I don't see why you're arguing about such a simple change. All it does is allow the user to cancel the attack. Lets say you accidentally targeted a disrupter that for whatever reason you can't kill. Instead of being stuck attacking it, why not just be allowed to cancel, and choose another target?

You won't be stuck killing it though... each target of an enemy (you can do this 3 times per enemy) is ONE ATTACK (three if tagged 3 times), it will no longer keep going automatically until it's killed like it does now.  It's almost like you didn't watch the stream showing it in action....

Edited November 25, 2016 by LSG501

[Weirdiolio]

Just now, LSG501 said:

You won't be stuck killing it though... each target of an enemy is ONE ATTACK, it will no longer keep going until it's killed like it does now.  It's almost like you didn't watch the stream showing it in action....

You're forgetting the energy cost, which you just argued is higher.

[LSG501]

1 minute ago, Weirdiolio said:

You're forgetting the energy cost, which you just argued is higher.

it is..... 15 energy per ATTACK that may not kill enemy versus current 100 for 18 KILLS.  You're now changing your argument because yours has no merit.

Edited November 25, 2016 by LSG501

[Weirdiolio]

Just now, LSG501 said:

it is..... 15 energy per ATTACK that may not kill enemy versus current 100 for 18 KILLS.

All i'm trying to say is that it would be a nice QOL change to both save energy and avoid wasting time. If for some reason you think its a negative change, explain it to me. 

[LSG501]

1 minute ago, Weirdiolio said:

All i'm trying to say is that it would be a nice QOL change to both save energy and avoid wasting time. If for some reason you think its a negative change, explain it to me. 

Well a QOL change imo would be it not costing 15 energy per attack, not a toggle switch to disarm something. I actually really dislike what's been shown due to it being a clear nerf to ash (I'm not a big ash user and even I can see it) but it's pretty clear they don't want us to run around with it active all the time or it wouldn't be costing 15 energy per attack.

[Trichouette]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

Well a QOL change imo would be it not costing 15 energy per attack, not a toggle switch to disarm something. I actually really dislike what's been shown due to it being a clear nerf to ash (I'm not a big ash user and even I can see it) but it's pretty clear they don't want us to run around with it active all the time or it wouldn't be costing 15 energy per attack.

You know people will still play him the same way. High efficiency for a 3.75 energy cost per attack.

Wow big rework... that'll totally change ash's gameplay

[locojuan]

if you, by accident, marked an ancient disruptor (or any other hard to kill bastard)... then do not unleash blade storm yet. do what the soma guy said during the stream. just kill it, with your weapon, thats why you have one for. then unleash blade storm.
unless the complain, in general not yours in particular, its based on "you are asking me to actually think and use that thing they call skill once in a while". if so, you are wasting everyone's time here. even your own.

Edited November 25, 2016 by locojuan

[LSG501]

1 minute ago, Trichouette said:

You know people will still play him the same way. High efficiency for a 3.75 energy cost per attack.

Wow big rework... that'll totally change ash's gameplay

That's still more than double the current KILL cost per enemy.  Remember the current ash bladestorm kills it's targets even on high level, the new one won't it will just damage them. 

[Trichouette]

Just now, LSG501 said:

That's still more than double the current KILL cost per enemy.  Remember the current ash bladestorm kills it's targets even on high level, the new one won't it will just damage them. 

No.... They said they would buff the damage to compensate. And don't forget that it hit as finisher + bleed. If they don't change this and on top of it increase the damage, it'll still kill at very high level.

[LSG501]

Just now, Trichouette said:

No.... They said they would buff the damage to compensate. And don't forget that it hit as finisher + bleed. If they don't change this and on top of it increase the damage, it'll still kill at very high level.

They may have said that but why do you have the option to target an enemy 3 times if it will kill them due to the increased damage etc.  It's clearly not strong enough to kill in one go.

[Weirdiolio]

Perhaps a cost to simply mark an enemy any amount of times would make more sense. That way, you can actually mark enemies 2 or 3 times without destroying your energy pool.

[Nazzami]

12 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

it is..... 15 energy per ATTACK that may not kill enemy versus current 100 for 18 KILLS.  You're now changing your argument because yours has no merit.

So you don't use any efficiency mods? With just steamline and stealth under the new system thats 7 energy per mark. Now a ash prime with primed flow will have a energy cap of 425 your saying thats not enough energy?

 

[Trichouette]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

They may have said that but why do you have the option to target an enemy 3 times if it will kill them due to the increased damage etc.  It's clearly not strong enough to kill in one go.

So you can attack once at low level and twice/thrice at high level ?

Right now ash's ult hit for 6900 FINISHER damage with only one hit... Don't tell me that isn't insane, and they said they want to buff the damage output.

Buffed + 3 hit you can clearly kill pretty much anything but ability resistant enemies & eximus with 10x regular hp.

[LSG501]

8 minutes ago, Nazzami said:

So you don't use any efficiency mods? With just steamline and stealth under the new system thats 7 energy per mark. Now a ash prime with primed flow will have a energy cap of 425 your saying thats not enough energy?

 

Of course I use energy mods.... I did a like for like comparison with standard figures.  The relative costs of old versus new will still be the same even after applying the same efficiency mods.  You're also missing the important bit.... marked versus KILLS, one mark may not be enough to kill the enemy.

7 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

So you can attack once at low level and twice/thrice at high level ?

Right now ash's ult hit for 6900 FINISHER damage with only one hit... Don't tell me that isn't insane, and they said they want to buff the damage output.

Buffed + 3 hit you can clearly kill pretty much anything but ability resistant enemies & eximus with 10x regular hp.

So three hits cost 3 times the standard costs which makes it even more expensive on energy use.  Ignore the values of how much a hit does and look at it from an overall cost perspective.  Current ash bladestorm is 18 KILLS no matter the level (just takes ages on animation) for 100 cost (no efficiency), new blade storm is 1 attack for 15 cost which will at some point require more than one attack to kill the enemy increasing the cost to kill 1 enemy to 30 or 45 energy.  So on high levels you can basically kill 2 (I assume 3 attacks would kill them) enemies compared with the old 18....

Edited November 25, 2016 by LSG501

[Nazzami]

Just now, LSG501 said:

marked versus KILLS, one mark may not be enough to kill the enemy.

pre rework  bladestorm doesn't always kill the enemy its possible right now for bladestorm to run a good minute on a single high level enemies and barely phase them it wont kill them out right ether but the bleed procs do after bladestorm is done.

[LSG501]

Just now, Nazzami said:

pre rework  bladestorm doesn't always kill the enemy its possible right now for bladestorm to run a good minute on a single high level enemies and barely phase them it wont kill them out right ether but the bleed procs do after bladestorm is done.

It's killed everything I've attacked with it....

[Trichouette]

6 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

So three hits cost 3 times the standard costs which makes it even more expensive on energy use.  Ignore the values of how much a hit does and look at it from an overall cost perspective.  Current ash bladestorm is 18 KILLS no matter the level (just takes ages on animation) for 100 cost (no efficiency), new blade storm is 1 attack for 15 cost which will at some point require more than one attack to kill the enemy increasing the cost to kill 1 enemy to 30 or 45 energy.  So on high levels you can basically kill 2 (I assume 3 attacks would kill them) enemies compared with the old 18....

My point here isn't "the rework isn't a nerf".

My point is "the rework is useless and won't change how ash is played"

And as I said, you probably won't need 3 hit to kill a target.

Just now, LSG501 said:

It's killed everything I've attacked with it....

Current bladestorm has a limit of attack & target. It doesn't always kill everybody

Edited November 25, 2016 by Trichouette

[TheSteelRat]

Current blade storm has a certain # of attacks with a one time cost.

Old system 100 Energy (possible to be reduce to 25) for 18 attacks

New system make your marks each costing 15/10 (possibly reduced to 4/3) for as many attacks as you have energy. That means when you mark up to 10 times you are potentially spending more energy then the old system. 

Not only is DE making it more cumbersome and taking longer to Mark/kill, the energy cost is increasing, and the number of targets is decreasing.