Yaerion Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 28 minutes ago, Alpha_Zerg said: - 25 minutes ago, MrM1 said: - 23 minutes ago, Myhon said: - 23 minutes ago, LegionCynex said: - 20 minutes ago, chofranc said: - 16 minutes ago, Tizodd said: - 14 minutes ago, Godzelda123 said: - 13 minutes ago, PsiWarp said: - 10 minutes ago, Stonehenge said: - 7 minutes ago, xXDeadsinxX said: - 7 minutes ago, PsiWarp said: - 4 minutes ago, Alpha_Zerg said: - Thread Vortexed within Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract7777 Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Major_Phantom said: So far my experience with the rework is pretty positive: Casting smoke screen is a lot nicer and BS targeting aim is pretty responsive but it feels like we need a little extra in one of these fields: - a longer duration invis cause Ash needs an efficiency build to work well in crowds and it hurts duration pretty badly. - lessened cost for marking as cost/hit is pretty bad for builds not focused on power eff. - buff BS damage so you don't have to remark as much Overall now ash builds benefit more from efficiency and duration but it makes strength a problem so a little loosened leash on one of these would be a breath of fresh air. Efficiency is what they need to look at, if you see my above post. Ash now needs to rely more on duration now, but that is going to be a problem. Because Ash is now going to have trouble with Fleeting. Because Ash Bladestorm now costs about 2x as much on average while invisible, and 3x as much on average while not invisible. They nerfed the energy big time and there was no reason for it. It should cost less overall than it does now, less while invis than it does now, and subsequent marks on the same enemy should cost exponentially less to save you energy. Without power strength mods, marking the same enemy three times is almost 50 energy! That's just insane! I might as well have just used Fatal Teleport on everything by that point, It would be far cheaper and far quicker. I think they don't understand that if you make BS too clunky and the energy too nerfed, there really will be no reason to use it over Teleport + Finisher most of the time. Edited November 25, 2016 by Tesseract7777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xekrin Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 15 minutes ago, DEDENX said: As a fix, I'd probably suggest simply making the attack section of the ability utilize more ash clones so that more enemies are hit simultaneously and the entire cutscene/attack lasts the duration of one of the assassination animations. I was about to suggest letting us hit 4 again during the animations to cancel it and let the clones finish up. This sounds better though. We really only need to hit one thing once, I like the cutscene animations but they are too long and cumbersome, especially when we teleport back to our position only to leave it immediately to attack more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadScream Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 22 minutes ago, Aekhon said: Okay, so two things: 1. The marking mechanic means that Ash no longer has a panic button. Oh dude, you can become invisible while moving now, and it still stuns on a good area of effect. And guess what, it costs less than the old blade storm :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXDeadsinxX Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said: Take this marking system and give it to the Glaive weapons. That would be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimzor Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 7 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said: While everyone is complaining about not hitting enemies through walls, or having to manually mark and taking a lot longer, I am more concerned with the fact that Ash seems to have gotten a rather sizeable energy nerf for Bladestorm. Yeah, you can get refunded if your squad mate kills the enemy, but let's just compare it to regular bladestorm. The old Bladestorm cost 100 energy to cast and could attack up to 17 times. That is roughly 5.9 energy cost per time that Ash attacks during Bladestorm. With the new Bladestorm, every mark (which is every attack once you press four again) costs fifteen energy. This is almost 10 more energy per attack than it used to cost to do a single Bladestorm attack with Ash when efficiently going after a large group of mobs. Not only is it almost 10 more energy, it is almost THREE TIMES as much energy cost as before for a single attack using Bladestorm. This is the real nerf. The marking system already slows us down (although the skill did need to be interactive somehow, and I can't exactly think of a better way that wouldn't be way too OP), but this was not necessary. Nerfing the energy for Ash into the ground, especially when he is now going to rely way more on duration, especially when he has a pretty small energy pool compared to most frames to begin with. I saw the primetime where Rebecca was talking about Ash being able to just keep marking enemies forever if he had more energy from EV/orbs/pads/etc. and how this might not last. The sad thing is they made the energy cost too high, and still left it exploitable in the first place! The energy cost per mark is way too high, it is 3x what it used to be almost, and that is not okay. Stop people from exploiting Bladestorm by marking enemies forever, but also do bring the cost down to something reasonable. At the very, very, very least, marking an enemy multiple times should be less energy per mark. Edit: Oh and I would add, they allow us to only use 10 energy per mark if we are invisible, as if that is somehow a bonus, when it is a major nerf on top of bladestorm now being wayt slower and clunkier. But 10 energy per mark isn't a bonus! That is still almost twice as much as it used to cost to mark a single enemy on average! It is still a major nerf! Actually some people mentioned the energy efficiency of bladestorm now going to hell, but you are going into much more detail :) Requiring Duration and Efficiency at same time, while Bladestorm depends heavily on Power Str and still need Range.. Well doesn't leave you with many choices.. no Survivability mods now on, high risk builds ftw.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEATHLOK Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Ash is dead. Press 4. You can target 3 enemies. Press 4 to attack. Each kill costs 15 energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract7777 Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Just now, Dimzor said: Actually some people mentioned the energy efficiency of bladestorm now going to hell, but you are going into much more detail :) Requiring Duration and Efficiency at same time, while Bladestorm depends heavily on Power Str and still need Range.. Well doesn't leave you with many choices.. no Survivability mods now on, high risk builds ftw.. Sorry if someone already mentioned it in this thread my post may look a little out of context. It had been its own thread and then a mod merged it. Yeah they have kneecapped him in terms of modding, something I have sadly seen a lot lately with reworks. It becomes almost impossible with a lot of these "reworked" frames, to have a properly balanced build anymore. I really am not sure what they are thinking when they make some of these decisions. I wish they would explain their reasoning more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS- Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 (edited) 33 minutes ago, MrM1 said: I have that feeling that 90% of the Warframe community can't live without powercreep... Well I'd say 90% of the Warframe Community plays the game to escape reality and for fun/unrealistic sci-fi action, rather than treat this as some sort of academic exercise, so yeah you're not wrong there. XD Edited November 25, 2016 by sushidubya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weirdiolio Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 It would be nice to get some form of responses from the devs. There's been a huge amount of feedback and it seems that they've all put ignored the large majority of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trestira Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 While the change to Smoke Bomb is nice, they've removed the only real reactionary defensive button Ash had. Bladestorm does appear to remain effected by Steel charge, and total damage per cast appears to not have suffered, however the fact that you have to look at every target to mark them makes the playstyle feel terribly slow and little different than using a gun-Albeit one that deals finisher damage and slash procs, but cannot deal damage to many bosses. Fatal teleport, then, is both far more damage, faster, and far more energy-efficient, however it's still terribly buggy, and fails to work more often than not. Coupled with the lack of functional mod combinations to be functional at high-level content(A fact that DE doesn't seem to understand, likely due to the developer mods they've been shown to have that have much higher stats), you have to choose between playing like a notably less effective Loki without the CC, playing with Fatal Teleport and the bugs that entails, or playing like a much slower, more annoying, less energy-efficient version of the pre-rework Ash, who still has to deal with the animation lock that was the problem for so many players. All in all, I have to say this rework was disappointing on nearly every front, and more than enough to make me shelf Ash for the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelu_Y3K Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Ok feedback time. Decent change major problem, ill explain: Old ash 100 energy for 18 hits loved it. New ash 15/10 energy per hit so for 100 energy 6.7/10 hits do a damage nerf of 2 thirds/ half, also smoke is not free so an extra 35 energy there. I Suggest 3x damage to compensate. Also the deluxe skin is so awesome but I will not buy it for a nerfed frame, just like in Sarin's case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restartmind111 Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Ashes to ashes, Ash to dust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixElite Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 I'm liking the rework so far, but it's missing a couple QoL changes. 1. Being able to re-cast smoke screen before the duration's over 2. Being able to cast smoke screen during bladestorm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pingu7867 Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 1 minute ago, Weirdiolio said: It would be nice to get some form of responses from the devs. There's been a huge amount of feedback and it seems that they've all put ignored the large majority of it. I'd judge that they wait for things to settle down. While a medium proportion of us are saying with the rational rather than the emotional and the rush of putting their thoughts first and not late, it'd be better to wait until people get more steady before stepping in. So, I don't think they ignore us, but they watch closely and see that there are mixed opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimzor Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Further testing going on... All things mentioned but really need to say again that marks should be changed, can't really see how many times a target is marked until you are like hugging distance. Changing it to smt visible next to target name or health bar, like black outline, red center DOT next to its name, with 3 dots making 3 times marked would be way better. Just suggesting smt like that would actually help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey33 Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 The new Bladestorm rework, in my opinion, is less than desirable. It does increase the active participation of Ash, but it also introduce a tedious, slow and boring mechanic to the one of the most stylish ultimate in the game. The direction is right yet the execution needs serious improvement! With the idea to make the player actively engaging with the enemy as well as feeling bad-ash, I would like to suggest this humble mechanic of Bladestorm: Bladestorm becomes an exalted stance: with two hidden blades, Ash will now draw his true nature. Activate the ability gives Ash access to his deadly blades in short duration and melee attack will home into enemies. During activation, Ash will blink to the nearest enemy on the reticle to perform a finisher attack. The range of melee blink or homing is affected by Power Range. The duration of the stance is affected by Power duration. The power of the stance is affected by Power Strength. Ash will be invisible (or invincible) during the activation period. Enemy who Ash strikes will suffer a stagger proc for 1 second, which gives Ash time to relocate or continue the attack on the same target/switch to new target. Ash blink leaves a trace of energy, for cosmetic reason :) With these suggestions, I want to give Ash the powerful ultimate he always deserves without sacrificing player satisfaction. On the one hand, players have to be mindful of his action to choose target selectively because of the limited duration. On the other hand, Ash does not lose his reputation as the deadliest ninja in the game. This ability goes well with Bladestorm augment as well so nothing much to lose. I hope to receive feedback on my idea, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LascarCapable Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 I just tried Bladestorm. The targeting system is not that bad : I can target a lot of enemies just by swiping my mouse horizontaly if I am on the same vertical level than them. However the targeting becomes a bit more tedious when you want to target enemies while in midair. My suggestion : allow the targeting to be slightly more looser than usual. Instead of passing the crosshair directly on the enemy, you would automatically target everything around your crossair in a 1 cm radius. This makes the targeting phase a bit more viable when one wants to use bladestorm while aimgliding over an area. I would also suggest to remove the line of sight of teleport, but only if you target an ally. Why ? Because it encourages teamplay. Just imagine, you're killing enemies in a corridor then suddenly your friend request help in the room behind you : you would be able to instantly teleport to him in order to help him without the need of line of sight, and easly. Finally, I suggest to rebalance the base damage value of Shuriken in order to allow it to be affected by primary or secondary weapon mods. Why ? Because it's a power that can only affect up to two enemies at best, and basically worthless unless you get the shuriken augment. The poor number of targets should probably be compensated with something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBYipho Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 (edited) On 11/25/2016 at 1:12 PM, Azur_Fenix said: To bad they broke it again and it isn't working anymore, least not for me. Fatal Teleport works on all my tests. ___________________________ For now here's my input till an update comes to Ash. EDIT: Here is this post updated. Tried making its own topic but it got merged back here. Shuriken Untouched. [Feedback/Suggestion] Give new synergy with Smokescreen effects. Disarm targets effected by Smokescreen. Smokescreen It's nice being able to use this in the air or on ground while moving. [Feedback] This skill, with how squishy Ash feels now, needs to be recast-able. Any large count Bladestorms and you'll return to your position with no smokescreen and that few seconds it takes to recover from Bladestorm and start the animation for another smokescreen is painful. I've died a lot in my testing against the usual Void enemies. Teleport The ability to teleport to most other things is nice. [Feedback] See Bladestorm feedback/suggestion. Bladestorm For it's extreme energy cost it would need much more damage. Right now it feels terrible and I rather just use Teleport(with Fatal Teleport augment) to do its job. If you have an extremely large selection(which means you didn't shoot anything while targeting) you still get animation locked for a decently long time but not as long as the old Bladestorm. I don't think it'll be ideal for group play at all. For friends that didn't mind the old Bladestorm it feels Ash isn't covering his side of the load anymore. [Feedback/Suggestion] I would say change the functionality. Make Bladestorm smokescreen/stagger enemies near your target(s). This should most likely give the player a chance of surviving and be ideal for group play. Make allies in the Bladestorm created smokescreen invisible or make it so if that augment is equipped these mini-smokescreens will also make allies invisible. Ash shouldn't be stuck into Bladestorm cinematic when activated, specters should attack all marked targets To go with above suggestion make it so if the player manually Teleports to a target marked/(recently marked) to do the animation manually with a radial like effect. Possibly slash proc target and surrounding targets. To go with the smokescreen/stagger enemies with the target. Base Stats [Feedback]With the cost of the current Bladestorm I would ask if we can increase his base energy pool. Possibly from 150-225 for scaling. [Feedback]We can either give him some more armor or increase his base health and shields a bit. At rank 30, Base Armor: 250 or Health: 700 Shield: 500. Should allow an extra few seconds of survival in base game content of lvl 40-60. Last thoughts. I'm happy to not get stuck in cinematic mode anymore but the Warframe seems to be suffering really heavily since that was a feature on keeping the player alive. His murder output has decreased in efficiency and actuality. (This is from me testing the usual groups in the simuralicrum. Group of 20 Grineer, Corpus, Infested, Orokin. At levels at 50-75-140). I feel if we're going heavily ninja themed on Ash that he should feel you know... More Ninja-ish. Since teleporting and smokescreens seems to be his kit. Why not add Smokescreen to Bladestorms and make it so you can disarm targets with your Shuriken(s) while targets are affected by your smokescreen. Edited November 27, 2016 by BBYipho Linked to updated one later in thread. Top of post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragazer Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 (edited) Suggested Changes: Give Ash X-ray vision of enemies when entering targeting mode for blade storm. Allow him to mark enemies behind walls and such in targeting mode. Allow shuriken to create marks for enemies to bladestorm Slightly increase base smoke screen duration from 8 to 10 seconds Maybe give shuriken the vauban and Ivara treatment for 1st abilities with toggling and selecting different variations of the ability Reduce marking cost for Bladestorm to 7 at base and 5 base when invis Allow Ash to exit Bladestorm freely when 4 is pressed again Edited November 25, 2016 by Dragazer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maki0r Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 pls make blade storm free animation, i like the mark thing but, why ash have to go with his shadows, i prefer to make clones while i do other things, like a real ninja, the animation lock make me sick, plss DE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reifnir Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 (edited) Just gave the new Ash a quick run and frankly, I'm a bit disappointed. Bladestorm didn't change much in how it works, but instead of "press 4 to win" it's now "press 4, wave your mouse around to win". Feels a bit more interactive but still doesn't solve the problem of having to sit through the teleporting animation. Also, suggestion: When Bladestorm Marking Mode is active, Ash should be able to see (and mark enemies) through walls/obstacles, Codex Scanner-like. Marking mode already has a Predator vibe, so why not go all the way? :edit: Seems I'm not the only one who thinks Ash needs X-Ray goggles now :D Edited November 25, 2016 by Reifnir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPortorico Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 All the players crying "Ash is everywhere! I hate him! Ash is the worse frame!" etc etc...and u listen to them... Instead of doing something about the annoying animation u just make it worse! Vulnerable while targeting=dead before hitting 4 again! I was bored with the game, now I don't feel like playing the same maps again and again and again...Was fun with Ash to hear all the "pro players" giving me lessons about the game and about how bad Ash is! Now, you took the fun out of it...Great job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey33 Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 I made a thread on this ability before reading this section so I will quote by post in here: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StonedMakak Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 And our annual "Missed The Point!" Award goes to...! While I like the tweaks to his 2 and 3 (though Teleport one is rather meh... would prefer a simple blink forward if no enemy/ally is targeted), the actual Bladestorm rework is absolutely pointless in regards to the supposed aim of it. The aim was making the skill interactive, and it a way it was made more interactive. But "more" is relevant - you can season some S#&$ and, technically, it will be tastier, but it's still S#&$. Same with this "rework." The targeting minigame is more interactive but the core is still the same boring, vomit inducing gif that completely breaks the flow of combat. Plus, like someone already mentioned, if I aim at something and want to make it dead, I just pull the trigger or swing the sword. I'd expect a bit, no, a LOT more, finesse from a Ultimate ability, rather than just "watch the paint dry while our engine is doing damage calculations." Which brings us to the real reason behind the rework - nerf Ash's killing power. And I'm all for it really. But waste an opportunity, to use one of the myriad awesome ideas presented by the community, just to achieve something as easy as a nerf to a simple direct damage ability, and then proclaim it a rework? Shame on you DE, shame on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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