Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Somethinglurks]

21 hours ago, AntoninDvorak said:

yeah, instead of fixing ash, they nerf nyx, lol! but it's worth trying don't ya think? at least we won't lose anything

 

Yup, it's always worth expressing your opinions on the game. 

[Akstiletto]

On 20.3.2017 at 6:43 PM, Skaleek said:

I wonder if they'll release the metrics about ash played before and after their rework. I expect more than a 90% decrease personally.

Ash is like oberon now, nobody likes them.

[-CG-Aurigio]

Accept it guys, Ash isn't the Ash of before. He's not a speedy killer anymore, not top tier. Let's just accept and weep.

[Nazrethim]

On 20/3/2017 at 11:59 AM, (PS4)ShuhanX said:

Honestly, will it honestly make a difference though? Even when it reaches 100+ pages, it doesn't really garuntee that DE will actually pay attention to it. At this point, I'm not expecting anything at all from them, regarding Ash. At least as far as this mess of a "revisit" goes. At best, I see them doing nothing more than giving negligible changes, like allowing us to trade chat while BS is active, or something along those lines. 

 

11 minutes ago, GPDM said:

Accept it guys, Ash isn't the Ash of before. He's not a speedy killer anymore, not top tier. Let's just accept and weep.

Tenno: What happened to you?

Teshin: They gave up

 

[Doomsknightmare]

Ash is now fine. His fatal teleport still rocks and blade storm is still viable when needed, just not braindead anymore. Pre-patch Ash is broken.

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, Doomerang said:

Ash is now fine. His fatal teleport still rocks and blade storm is still viable when needed, just not braindead anymore. Pre-patch Ash is broken.

The fact that pre-patch Ash was broken doesn't mean current is fine. The only ability that got better was Smoke Screen. And let's not mention his current "abilities 90% useless" Conclave incarnation.

[(PSN)ShuhanX]

9 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

The fact that pre-patch Ash was broken doesn't mean current is fine. The only ability that got better was Smoke Screen. And let's not mention his current "abilities 90% useless" Conclave incarnation.

Exactly. I hate when people use the "he's not press4towin now, so he's good" argument. Him not being "broken" doesn't by default mean he's in a good spot right now. 

[Somethinglurks]

10 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

The fact that pre-patch Ash was broken doesn't mean current is fine. The only ability that got better was Smoke Screen. And let's not mention his current "abilities 90% useless" Conclave incarnation.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)ShuhanX said:

Exactly. I hate when people use the "he's not press4towin now, so he's good" argument. Him not being "broken" doesn't by default mean he's in a good spot right now. 

Glad we can be in agreement here.  

[StealthDragoon]

As a player who mains Ash and also suggested this rework, I'm partially disappointed. Why? Because speed-kill metas kill any sort of fun you can have with Bladestorm.

I press 4, start marking... By the time I mark my 5th enemy, Ember+Ignis+Combustion Beam meta sweeps in. If it isn't that, it's Volt+Telos Boltace or Mirage+Simulor.

Whenever I can actually use Bladestorm, I'm left with 1/4 of the energy I had and some enemies are still standing...

So, now I just use Smoke Shadows in low-level alerts and get called edgy weebo...

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

On 3/19/2017 at 7:21 PM, Nazrethim said:

It's a replacer. Current aiming is slow only if you go for 3 marks on every target, this one is a single mark, and it would probably be a less pinpoint accuracy affair. It's supposed to be a quick marking for some bonus damage+utility. The idea is for Ash to not be stuck on regular melee combat which is fully ground based, but rather killing enemies then jumping away at high speed towards the next kills.

The passive is focused on moving around and using glide and latch, or priming enemies for the kill from stealth.

Making it an addition seems good to me, I tell you that.

Also, something I forgot to mention (among other things) is that abilities don't consume the marks.

The problem with yours is that it requires holding the key to keep throwing shurikens, let me know how your finger feels after a while. I choose a 1s hold for different take on the ability without requiring the player to hold the finger in the same place for more than 2s.

I'm not entirely sure. I consider, for the sake of balance, that it's either multiple smoke screens or finisher opener smoke screen. The blind is just the explanation in terms of mechanics, thematically it would be a choke.

Yeah, I like your Smoke dash, DE can actually implement it in the same way as the Operator Void Charge (or whatever it's called). My idea is more of a functional change to current teleport.

Well, that's because the short manic dashes are for covering short distances, while Teleport remains a mid-long range displacement.

Well, the point is that, regardless if you care or not, DE will have to make balance changes to his abilities, so having a bit of knowledge about Conclave and making something easily transaltable to the mode would save DE's time and resources and reduce the chance of the frame ending up stuck with bad abilities.

We will never surrender!

Passive: Why I don't like it alone (but great as an addition), you don't always have the choice/time/space to do a lot of acrobatics/wall latch and it effectively makes this change more situational... but I understand the premise behind it.

Shuriken: Ash has always been a frame that takes more work/constant effort to be effective and with a good player he can be more devastating than he seems and I have always appreciated that about him. That being said, I think that just holding the button down is less work. He would have a small ramp-up time, like the soma (but maybe a bit more forgiving) you could let go of the trigger and if you hold it down again within a short period of time, he will continue with the same high fire rate or one closer to it. If you're running a duration/seeking shuriken based Ash right now, you are pressing your 1st ability countless times. Maybe a draw-back would be that he doesn't move as fast or as far (faster/farther than an assimilate nyx and gaze atlas, though) but you can jump and dodge roll and maintain top fire rate. So Ash could jump around fast and throw enough of the tough armor stripping shurikens, then disappear and start your heavy fire but not be a sitting duck and stuck in a single spot.

Smoke Screen: I think Stealth Multiplier is better than Finisher, only because I hate the slow execution animation that does't always kill the target you use it on and would rather just take the raw damage output of stealth. That being said, maybe only Ash could have the finisher application and allies would only get the stealth bonus? If that/s possible at all, I don't know.

Smoke Dash: Settlement Reached. Case Closed. :D

Blade Storm: I just thought the manic dashes would make BS too OP if Ash had those and my smoke dash redesign, but if you don't feel that way, I am all for it! Would compliment the over-venting animations very well, indeed.

Conclave: What I meant to say is: I don't play it, so it matters not to me (which is true), but more importantly, I don't know enough about it or how it functions differently from the regular game to make any type of valid suggestion with skills/weapons/etc. So, it would be best if someone like you who does know and perhaps liked any of my ideas could make those suggestions for me as your expertise far outweighs mine in this area. That's all.

No Retreat, No Surrender!

 

Edited March 23, 2017 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[Nazrethim]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)GR13V4NC3 said:

Shuriken: Ash has always been a frame that takes more work/constant effort to be effective and with an good player he can be more devastating than he seems and I have always appreciated that about him. That being said, I think that just holding the button down is less work. He would have a small ramp-up time, but like the soma (but maybe a bit more forgiving) you could let go of the trigger and if you hold it down again within a short period of time, he will continue with the same high fire rate or one closer to it. If you're running a duration/seeking shuriken based Ash right now, you are pressing your 1st ability countless times. Maybe a draw-back would be that he doesn't move as fast or as far (faster/farther than an assimilate nyx and gaze atlas, though) but you can jump and dodge roll and maintain top fire rate. So Ash could jump around fast and throw enough of the tough armor stripping shurikens, then disappear and start your heavy fire but not be a sitting duck and stuck in a single spot.

Oh, so you keep the shuriken RoF even if you turn it off for a second or two? I thought it was a "you need to start again if you release the 'hold'". That seems nice.

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Smoke Screen: I think Stealth Multiplier is better than Finisher, only because I hate the slow execution animation that does't always kill the target you use it on and would rather just take the raw damage output of stealth. That being said, maybe only Ash could have the finisher application and allies would only get the stealth bonus? If that/s possible at all, I don't know.

It could work, but I think Finisher opening is bound to the enemy rather than the player unless it's a forced interaction (like Fatal Teleport), hence why Ancient Healers make any finisher opener pointless.

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Blade Storm: I just thought the manic dashes would make BS too OP if Ash had those and my smoke dash redesign, but if you don't feel that way, I am all for it! Would compliment the over-venting animations very well, indeed.

Well, it would be OP if we mix and match the concepts without any adaptation. Your concept works within itself, apply an ability of another concept and you get a totally different result. My concept is designed the same way, I do try to make simple mechanics because then it's easier to adapt :3

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Conclave: What I meant is, I don't play it, so it matters not to me (which is true), but more importantly, I don't know enough about it or how it functions differently from the regular game to make any type of valid suggestion with skills/weapons/etc. So, it would be best if someone like you who does know and perhaps liked any of my ideas could make those suggestions for me as your expertise far outweighs mine in this area. That's all.

Well, what you need to know about Conclave balancing is just knowing how different are the abilities there and how much EHP (effective hit points) average frame has. For the record, Ash in Conclave works like this:

Average Warframe EHP is 148/110 (Shield/Healh)

Passive: not active, or at least there isn't any way to trigger bleeds to see if it works, Dread has a bleed and it's not affected, so it's likely not active at all.

Shuriken: deals about 50 Puncture damage, it doesn't seek sh*t, but you can guide it to someone if you keep the aiming reticle on the target (which is a PITA considering the ridiculous mobility and terrain layout). Overall a weak and nearly useless ability.

Smoke Screen: lasts 4s and it's canceled if you take enough damage ("enough" being "you lose from full health&shield down to 10-20hp left") or if you pick energy, health or ammo, or if you attack (doesn't matter if the attack conects or not). It doesn't stagger. It grants Ash 0.4 mobility (that's about 40% bulletjump, but mobility also affects rolling distance and parkour speed). Doesn't make you completely invisible, so a player at about 20m can still see you (unless you use Black energy and are in a dimlit map). Tear Gas Augment supposedly blinds enemies in 4m radius for 3s, in practice it does jacksh*t (I tested with someone, who stood still right next to me and didn't get blinded by SS).

Teleport: Teleports to the player. It's casting is faster than in PvE (it's like having Natural Talent equiped) but doesn't do anything to the target, so it's pointless outside of having a shotgun as players can bulletjump and cover the same distance for zero energy. It also requires pin point accuracy.

Blade Storm: Deals 150 Finisher damage (in conclave it ignores armor but not shields). It has 10m targeting range, if the marked target is more than 10m away the mark dissapears refunding cost (if the marked player dies from enviroment or another player it is not refunded). Ash can't Sprint, Bulletjump, Double jump, AImglide, Wall jump, Wall Latch while marking mode is active (for no explained or logical reason). It requires 100 energy to activate marking mode and each mark costs 25 energy. You can only mark once each target, requires pin point accuracy to mark. You can die mid blade storm. If you die while in marking mode with a mark active (likely because you had all your mobility completely stripped for being in marking mode) you lose ALL energy. If you Bladestorm 1 target (25 energy) you still lose all energy.

 

As you can see, Ash is gimped to the extreme in Conclave, the only saving grace is Ash prime having goodish ehp... which half the frames have, including Excalibur and Rhino who have stupidly powerful abilities and more EHP than Ash.

The problem is that buffing Blade Storm would just make it broken, Shuriken deals too little damage to be of any use without the Bleed, Teleport is pointless and so is BS. Passive isn't active (compare to Nova, Atlas and Frost's gamechanging passives working as they do in pve) and Smoke Screen being marginally useful for moving around (as an escape tool it mostly s*cks because you are still faintly visible, which is the equivalent of having a neon sign on your head vs the usually aware eyes of the average conclave player). Ash doesn't need buffs in PvP, he needs a Rework, even moreso than PvE, hence why I focus my concept on working in both modes.

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No Retreat, No Surrender!

Indeed.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Nazrethim]

Ash got a working (if a bit over specific) passive in Conclave! (the rest of his abilities continue to be sh*t though)

Edited March 24, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Somethinglurks]

obligatory post of Ash revisit, and how it was crap. 

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

Ash should get a better rework and not the rework he got last November ..... 

he should move like a manic when in bladestorm 

bladestorm should be an exalted weapon ability enchancing all other abilities 

Have a higher duration for invisibility 

his passive can stay the same or change doesn't matter 

he should have a smoke dash or teleport as an ability  

and should be able to have paused duration for his smoke screen during .... finishers or bladestorm animations 

 

 

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

I seen this somewhere else on warframe forums bladestorm becomes an exalted ability with his arm blades showing With that said when he has his bladestorm activated 

passive - smoke dash ( all movements from sprint to back flips become a smoke dash of short to medium distance similar to the manics of warframe can be affected by distance mods and speed mods ) 

shuriken - increased damage and distance with longer bleed proc

smoke screen - drops a couple smoke bombs or a bomb with a lot of smoke coming out of it any foe caught in it gets the old bladestorm treatment but only 1 strike to which ash becomes invisible and can finish off with the bladestorm exalted strikes 

this is only when bladestorm is active 

Edited March 29, 2017 by (PS4)kingbrown2012

[(XBOX)V17ORED]

As an Ash user, I believe that Ash's original Bladestorm was better than the new one but if you really wanted to change it, maybe do something like have the Ash clones jump out and BS for you while you can move around and still attack or whatever

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

• Only way to change bladestorm is to make it an exalted ability period 

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)JoshUchiha15 said:

As an Ash user, I believe that Ash's original Bladestorm was better than the new one but if you really wanted to change it, maybe do something like have the Ash clones jump out and BS for you while you can move around and still attack or whatever

People seem to fail to grasp the full ramifications of these statements. For starters, this would KILL Blade Storm for good, as one of BS selling points is that it scales with Combo counter, but only because it's a melee themed ability. If it gets turned into a summoning nuke, that mechanic goes away and BS lose it's scalability as no nuke in the game scales with combo counter. It also makes BS once again P42W, and removing that was the whole point of the revisit in the first place.

If, and IF DE reworks Ash, it would require to ber a stance ultimate of some kind, as that it's the only path that leads to properly adressing the frame's issues without making it P42W or weakening the frame

Edited March 30, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

I'm starteing to thinks de wanted to nerf ash into the ground 

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

People seem to fail to grasp the full ramifications of these statements. For starters, this would KILL Blade Storm for good, as one of BS selling points is that it scales with Combo counter, but only because it's a melee themed ability. If it gets turned into a summoning nuke, that mechanic goes away and BS lose it's scalability as no nuke in the game scales with combo counter. It also makes BS once again P42W, and removing that was the whole point of the revisit in the first place.

If, and IF DE reworks Ash, it would require to ber a stance ultimate of some kind, as that it's the only path that leads to properly adressing the frame's issues without making it P42W or weakening

Thank you !!!!!!

[Nazrethim]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

I'm starteing to thinks de wanted to nerf ash into the ground 

I don't think so. My theory of what happened, is that they started to rework him, paying some attention to player feedback, but then they took a nosedive into TWW development and developing Nidus and Octavia, and then forgot about Ash, then a few months later the art team showed up at office saying something like "Hey! What's up? See, we got the Ash Deluxe skin ready" and DE in charge of reworking went like "oh sh*t! we forgot about him! what do we do?!" "Just release what we have, probably nobody will make a fuss about it once we release the new frames"

And that's how we got here.

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

Yet there's 98 pages plus bout 3 more threads about another rework happening 

[ChuckMaverick]

42 minutes ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

• Only way to change bladestorm is to make it an exalted ability period 

Any post so closed-minded as to state "blah, blah, blah... period" can basically be ignored.

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

1 minute ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Any post so closed-minded as to state "blah, blah, blah... period" can basically be ignored.

Ion see you tryna make any ideas 

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

2 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Any post so closed-minded as to state "blah, blah, blah... period" can basically be ignored.

Also since my post should be ignored then what bladestorm should be turned into ability wise