Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Yaerion]

1 minute ago, Ziden_ said:

So I just played through two missions with the bladestorm changes and I absolutely LOVE what you've done!  I have always loved playing ash, but the lack of control on bladestorm would drive me crazy.  Now I get the same powerful bladestorm as I had before, but with far more control over what targets I'm hitting, and what targets need more markers!

Furthermore, I found it extremely easy to mark targets and kill them after a brief adjustment period.  Don't change a thing!  It's fine now!

Vortexed within 

 

[Thunderblunder66]

I used to DESPISE Ash, but after this, I might give him another shot.

[SonicSonedit]

What was bladestorm?

- Low cost skill that didn't need any duration mods and can be taken to 300% power with a minor cost penalty

- Auto-targeted a lot of enemies (basically press 4 to win)

- Made Ash invincible and allowed to regen mana from EV at the same time (basically you could press it non-stop)

- Dealt tons of armor-ignoring damage

 

This one of the most OP skills that ever existed in Warframe and it's nerf absolutely justified.

Welcome to the Trinity/Nova/Frost/Valkyr club, edgelords

[TheJadrimian]

Just took Ash out for a spin for the first time in a long while; liking the new Bladestorm. I'm concerned, however, that its new functionality isn't terribly well explained for anyone who hasn't been following the patch notes, dev blogs etc. I'd suggest updating the ability's description to help out new players.

[bebar69]

After few test

Escalibur and Inaros have better stun

Loki and Ivara have better invisility skill

Why play again Ash?

[Yaerion]

3 minutes ago, SonicSonedit said:

What was bladestorm?

- Low cost skill that didn't need any duration mods and can be taken to 300% power with a minor cost penalty

- Auto-targeted a lot of enemies (basically press 4 to win)

- Made Ash invincible and allowed to regen mana from EV at the same time (basically you could press it non-stop)

- Dealt tons of armor-ignoring damage

 

This one of the most OP skills that ever existed in Warframe and it's nerf absolutely justified.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Welcome to the Trinity/Nova/Frost/Valkyr club, edgelords

 

Vortexed within: 

 

[Ziden_]

I reiterate my previous post about loving this rework.  Those complaining about inefficiency or poor performance of the skill most likely haven't optimized their builds for what the requirements of the new skill are.

I spec'd for it and had no issues at all.  In fact bladestorm is now better than ever!  DE, please don't let a lot of this negative feedback skew the reality that this is a fantastic update!  Thank you!

[TheSteelRat]

I just played a mission with a more "Balanced" ash build.  More duration sacrificing Power.

My biggest complaint?

bladestorm does not perform stealth kills.So what is the point of enemies disolving?

Really only works will with Trickery arcane, or shadow step for the added stealth.  And the cost is WAY higher then normal blade storm per an attack.  I was constantly running out of energy trying to maintain smoke shadow, and also blade storming

Smoke shadow duration needs an increase, the cost per an attack for blade storm needs to decrease, and it would be nice to have the Surniken help me autotarget enemies.

Edited November 25, 2016 by -CM-Kinnison

[tris1]

energy cost isnt that good even with effieceny build

not good for team play as allies can still kill the ones you target

the targeting is not as bad as i thought it would be but still is terrible because you have to look at the targets or find them if you dont want to waste energy for just killing hardly any enemies which teleport could do while you still take damage while targeting all these enemies you want to kill.

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by tris1

[Sirabot]

3 minutes ago, Ziden_ said:

I reiterate my previous post about loving this rework.  Those complaining about inefficiency or poor performance of the skill most likely haven't optimized their builds for what the requirements of the new skill are.

I spec'd for it and had no issues at all.  In fact bladestorm is now better than ever!  DE, please don't let a lot of this negative feedback skew the reality that this is a fantastic update!  Thank you!

But now it's basically the same thing as fatal teleport just with a targeting mini game attached to it and you still lose control of ash when the animations play for killing all of the targets you marked with fatal teleport bladestorm. Which is completely ignoring why people were asking for a rework in the first place..

Edited November 25, 2016 by Sirabot

[-AT-RedClown]

Was trying Blade Storm in simulacrum just now and seems so melee multiplier is bugged or isn'r working properly. Neither Rising Storm or Body Count don't make any difference in multiplier outcome (which is the same with and without it).

So far i enjoyed rework Smoke Screen is amazing now, Teleport have a good tweak and feels good about Blade Storm.

Edited November 25, 2016 by -AT-RedClown

[Isochronic]

Okay, one last time. I went to a simulacrum for a pure pain experience. 

145 lvl eximus bombards. 

What I have to say:

1. Times I died when I tried to mark them even while being stealthed: 2.

2. Times I needed to activate 3x BS to actually kill 5 of them: 2.

3. Times they died because of BS and not because of bleedproc so I will get my energy back: zero.

What I have to say... before this change I was able to actually kill 18 145 lvl eximus bombards in one ult, without being dead half the time. Ash is not a tank to have the ability that requires him to run around defenseless while trying to kill those enemies. 

Plus new BS is way more buggy. Times I fell through the tile? 3 per one BS. 

Times I died with Loki while gently stabbing them in the back? 0. With Ivara? 0. I think something here is rather wrong... I wonder what it is.

[Kyronz]

Bladestorm not viable in group play...nor all that much better solo.   Why did you choose not to go active targeting route like mesa? instead of this let's hope 1 or 2 or these are still alive 5 seconds from now when the player presses 4 again?

[Sirabot]

Just now, Kyronz said:

Bladestorm not viable in group play...nor all that much better solo.   Why did you choose not to go active targeting route like mesa? instead of this let's hope 1 or 2 or these are still alive 5 seconds from now when the player presses 4 again?

Because then it would have been more obvious that it's basically just a multi-targeting fatal teleport aug.

[Circle_of_Psi]

19 minutes ago, Ziden_ said:

So I just played through two missions with the bladestorm changes and I absolutely LOVE what you've done!  I have always loved playing ash, but the lack of control on bladestorm would drive me crazy.  Now I get the same powerful bladestorm as I had before, but with far more control over what targets I'm hitting, and what targets need more markers!

Furthermore, I found it extremely easy to mark targets and kill them after a brief adjustment period.  Don't change a thing!  It's fine now!

This

I'm a Ash Main and I have to say, I really LOVE this new rework, it stops the old habbit of pressing 4 and killing endless people with a single keystroke and you can pick what targets you want to attack and when. Also if your team-mates kill the marked targets, so what?, don't compain. You get it refunded to you, so your getting free energy.

I love the changes to Smokescreen as well, so much esayer to use and no longer locks you in place, and super easy to use. Telport I have yet to try, but its already good.

So overall, I love the Rework and this is far from a Nerf.

 

However the only other thing I want is to remove the following:

 

A: Targets can still be killed, if Ash is Blade-Storming, this will fix a huge issue. (If you lose a target, via someone else, mid bladestrom, you get the energy back) 

 

My cup of tea on this, Bladestrom Rewrok is great, I love the new Sounds and Visual effects

 

 

Well Done DE

 

 

Legion

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by LegionCynex

[Ziden_]

6 minutes ago, Sirabot said:

But now it's basically the same thing as fatal teleport just with a targeting mini game attached to it and you still lose control of ash when the animations play for killing all of the targets you marked with fatal teleport bladestorm. Which is completely ignoring why people were asking for a rework in the first place..

I enjoy the rework and find the play fun and a lot more interacting.  I always loved the bladestorm animation and they said they wanted to keep those aspects of bladestorm.  I feel they did a fantastic job, and i usually hate changes made to things I play.  This change kept the things I liked and took out the things I didn't like.

[Circle_of_Psi]

4 minutes ago, A.Rosen said:

-snip-

What where you even doing to get killed while cloaked?, where you deliberately thinking you can just walk into a swam of mobs like its nothing and start killing?, you have to pick what target is the most threat, Yeah, we can't kill huge level mobs anymore with "Press 4 to win". Big deal.

The Rework is fine, it stops Ash Players, from pressing 4 to win (Now what if I told you, Ash shuold lose his god-mode, WHILE blade-stromin hum?)

 

[Pingu7867]

28 minutes ago, Pingu7867 said:

 

The greatest question now is : Will the attacked enemies still be invulnerable to other allies' damage? This annoyance is way beyond anything else that Blade Storm does annoyingly.

 

I retract this statement about it being the only problem. The animations' view positions changing all the time so abruptly gives some headache.

Here's a suggestion : we could have a spectator-like camera mode where we see from third person what happens, with a steadier and smoother view.

If it's hard to explain, here's another wording : visualize a group of a few 1 meter radius spheres on the ground in a blank space, you see it from about 5 meters up and 10 meters at the side and follow an elliptical trajectory around the scene, maybe varying the trajectory by going on top of the scene, looking down.

All this to say we could see the group of enemies or whatever from a distance and see ash jumping all over the place instead of us going so fast we don't see where or who we hit. maybe it'll be tricky with closed-up spaces, in that case you might set a camera near the corner of ceiling-walls.

By the way I like how the new targetting mechanism paints selection where you aim, but there's another way we might do it. Holdtap 4 to start marking, quicktap 4 to mark in a similar cone, and when done you release by doing holdtap 4, in a similar way to how vauban can select grenades and then throw them.

[Alpha_Zerg]

Spoiler

If your goal was to make me consider using other frames in place of what I used to use Ash for, then you have succeeded. I never even used him a lot, just brought him out every now and then because his ultimate was so ultimate. There was one reason for me to like him, and now that's gone. Shuriken has always been a bit of a useless ability for me, smoke screen is another Radial Blind, teleport is a Loki-copy, made more useful by the augment... and the only thing that you actually changed didn't achieve the perceived goal: removing the cutscene. 

 

His fourth is now only really suitable for large, open areas, and the rest of his abilities have remained mostly the same. If you wanted to bring attention to his other abilities then you should have considered buffing his Shuriken and Smokescreen.

 

The only thing that has actually changed here is that Bladestorm is imprudent to use when you have a target that you want to kill enemies around when you can just teleport there and lay waste to them with your melee instead.

A great way to improve the ability would have been to keep Bladestorm the way it was, but add another clone in place of the actor. Instead, you allow the actor to run around and use other abilities while the clones go through their business without the player experiencing the cutscene. You could also add synergy with Smokescreen to improve damage dealt by the clones, and nerf the base clone damage to compensate for the player being able to attack as well.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Alpha_Zerg
Just had an amazing idea

[Azur_Fenix]

Well here is my feedback, I love the skin, it makes me look Demon Ryu Haybusa. It colors nice and the Blades for it are SICK!!!!!!!!!!! Love the little cloth flowing from the Helmet. Totally worth the plat kudos to the artist. The Nikana skin is meh, it needs to be bigger and longer and make it look like a Dai Katana by length so it pops more and stands out more from the dragon Nikana visually, of course don't make the visually added length effect gameplay.

On too the tweaks, the new smoke bomb freedom is nice, its nice to be able to cast more freely and from in the air, it feels smoother to use, but again its just a short term invis it needs more utility....The new teleport broke fatal teleport, I can't kill anything with it now because it refuses to proc....so guess I wont be using that augment anymore....and I really relied on that too for clutch LS finsishers for emergencys

and now the Elephant. I like that you added a shdowy effect to ash when he is marking targets and well....that's it. Its hard to mark targets fast enough and kill them fast enough before someone just does it.  Seeing as how what's what people use Ash for, fast quick kills of trash mobs so that the big daddies can be focused....this makes bring in ash just pointless when I can just bring ember and do the same from farther and with actual CC.

I doubt you will change it back. My suggestion is do something with surikens, make them a cone AoE and throw more then just 2 or make him throw in all directions in a circle around him in a cool ninja like spin animation. Make Smoke bomb have a blind effect instead of that pointless 1 sec stun, and please repair fatal teleport!!!!!!!! That's generally All I can say, Maybe make Bigger enemies like Ancients and bombards not be effected by the invunabilitys so teammates can kill them with you rather then wait for yo to kill them with bug bites.

Love the skin, love the smoke bomb quality of life changes, hate the new marking system and find it makes ash less desirable to play unless solo and running stealthy and hate that you broke fatal teleport...again......

Edited November 25, 2016 by Azur_Fenix

[BBYipho]

So far I'm not finding the Bladestorm rework ideal enough to even mod for. Just to get that high energy efficiency to use it effectively means I have less smokescreen time.

The damage isn't high enough to actually be something I would ideally use either. (Not like the old Bladestorm worked ideally either).

As @Sirabot mention this is pretty much fatal teleport but effectively much weaker. I do like his idea about having specters going around killing things. Possibly keep the marks as it should just make them teleport to those targets. If we can make it so anyone can still damage the target while they're in animation that would be super.

[Azrael]

Okay, some initial observations.

Ash is now much more dependent on Smoke Screen, but the duration is very low. It shouldn't be as high as loki, but I feel like it should be slightly higher. Remember that if smokescreen ends during BS, ash will be very vulnerable when coming out of it. Before, Ash tended to kill all the nearby enemies, but now that doesn't happen since you can't mark new enemies during the animations.

Second, please make the animations faster for BS. Before the animations were okay, because you tended to nuke the entire room with BS. But right now it feels much more like an on-the-fly-while-fighting type of skill, so the slow animations are more keenly felt. Speeding them up would make it feel more rewarding and fun to use, and allow you to BS in the middle of battle without losing track of what's going on quite so much. Also, before the rework faster animations would have meant a huge increase in dps, but now you are limited by many other things, and it wouldn't have quite the effect.

tl;dr, needs faster BS animations and maybe a little more duration for smoke screen.

Oh, and please for the love of god remove the invulnerability thing. It is super annoying.

[Bouldershoulder]

Now on top of the non-stop screen shake and fireworks-to-the-eyes effects we have to deliberately roll our reticles around to mark the targets more than once and then watch another round of disorienting jumping while teammates kill all your hard-worked-for marked targets.. Sorry, but I don't like it in the least. True rework would be to change Ash while he is in the ult, similar to Excalibro or Titania (that direction), to give him new moves, new bonuses, some sweet combos, i.e. make him the ultimate assassin (actually, I would like it if all warframes received such treatment) - that's the way I imagine an ultimate should work like.

 

Also, there is no indication that the player has entered the marking mode, apart from barely discernible marks when they happen to appear atop of the mobs. Would be nice to have some indication, maybe a ve-e-ry sligt zoom effect, or stance change.

Edit:

 Well, OK, there is an indication. But I didn't notice it the first time in the party. Says something.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Bouldershoulder

[Xekrin]

After playing only a single solo exterm I have a couple suggestions.

First, not feeling too great about the energy costs.  15 energy per mark.  Previously Bladestorm cost 100 energy with a max of 18 targets.  Now assuming someone marks 18 targets now, which frankly didn't feel that bothersome to me, that is 270 energy.  Feels pretty expensive to me.

Suggestion Make it 10 per mark (7 while invisible).  That still uses 180 energy to get the same effect as before but helps a little at least.

Suggestion 2 Bump up Ash's base energy pool, even just a little.  150 isn't great with such an energy heavy ability.  I use prime flow with 8 ranks and thats 375 energy and it still feels low now, whereas before I didn't even bother with using flow at all.

---

Next suggestion is more just for fun, but when I was running by enemies I wasn't keeping track of how many I marked.  Therefore..

Suggestion 3  Show us how many times/enemies we've marked somewhere on the HUD, presumably on the 4th ability symbol where such things go for other frame's abilities that keep track of info like that.

That's all for now.  Off to try it in a group.

 

[Bludsuager]

Have had ash p for awhile now and only played to level him, BS was boring, smoke bomb pointless and shuriken and teleport were ok but quickly become redundant at higher levels.

Tried him again now with the rework and will be putting him away again. The new BS has more interaction but still the animation removes control of your frame again for several seconds (depending on how many targets selected) and i dislike giving control away for a set animation. Smoke bomb was fun but again pointless as it alerts enemies and the invisibility isnt practical for long stealth missions.

A better rework wouldve been to have ash stay where he is and have the clones sent out to do the damage, this way the BS is still there but you dont have to get a headache from the cut scene and dont have to give away control of your frame. Teleport was a nice change but wouldve been better to be able to teleport wherever he looks at range, atleast then he would have something unique to him rather than being a gimped Loki with switch teleport AND greater invisibility. Hell Loki's switch teleport is actually still better be cause you can switch with the decoy behind lasers whilst Ash still cant do that.

 

The rework is in the right direction but it wouldve been better if it had actually been a rework and not a minigame-attached-energy-cost-nerf-same-ability-work

my 2c