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Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread


[DE]Danielle
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" Teleport will now allow you to target anything with a health bar! "

Doesn't work on resource containers like Alloy drums.

Ok now to opinions feedback:

-If you're going to make Teleport better why not let us use it on the ground too? And maybe.... when aim up at a higher place work like Reaper from Overwatch, if you aim above any available ground that is higher than you are it teleports you to it's corner. (Not the wall or the sky that you're actually with your crosshair on).

-Blade Storm targeting feels... a little bit too focused, maybe make it a little more open and like Mesa's peacemaker, have a circle which shows where it's reaching.

Edited by DenoDagor
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Please help understand why Smoke Shadow augment still isn't affected by range. 
The duration is short, the stagger is non-existent and this augment is the only redeeming quality of this skill that requires you to stand within 5 meters from your teammates.
At least allow us to use Range mods on it or at least give it a "useable" base range. PLEASE?

Oh and nothing has changed with Bladestorm. It's still the same as watching an infinite loop of finisher.gif
Which really makes me wonder cuz I've seen a lot of amazing Ash rework posted under feedback that was just merged into 1 topic that nobody knows where at this point.
With all due respect the rework was extremely disappointing... 


 

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1 minute ago, Celetille said:

Well, if you actually played the re-worked ash instead of talking based on what you think the notes meant, you would know that Ash always strikes the enemy for the first mark, and the clones follow up with up to two attacks where you're free to do other things.

I'll give it a try before posting anything else, however based on the multitude of other peoples replies and feedback, I still hold to my thoughts here.  If the notes are supposed to mean something other than what they describe, then they should be re-written.  I've seen several comments here so far that contradict what you just said about the clones. 

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16 minutes ago, Dimzor said:

I immediately ran to simulacrum with zenurik maxed energy regen, 229% power str, 145% power range, 135% power eff and 100% dur. Sure new bladestorm is more interactive and different but:

1) Not viable in 4man squads with lots of enemies because there is no time and Ash is no tank to mark around targets.

2)You struggled in the past to fix the animation time and now you ruined it again.. There are no clones to help as of now, making 10marks really really long animation..

3)Damage increase sure is nice, if the animation was shorter then could actually consider it if not a nurf, same output as an ability just different.

4) Compared to old Bladestorm, you actually need visual contact, making it hard on a lot of tilesets due to objects (small or big) interefering or enemies on different height (Stairs or mini-floors)

In the end, despite using exactly same build as before, after testing a while and getting the hang of it, you really need to use it in conjuction with smoke bomb, which has low duration even if boosted with mods (actually tried with 280%dur). Compared to loki's Invisibility smoke bomb is lower duration and now its almost a "must" to use it to mark targets both for energy efficiency and survivability. Making Bladestorm kinda get boosted by smoke bomb was nice, but the result after this rework is that bladestorm just got nurfed. Harder to use both in solo and public, higher dmg but more energy consumptive, less survivability, animation time needs fixing (like "if marks less than 5, no clone, if marks 5-10, 2clones and so on up to 4clones" perhaps something like that..) or perhaps make bladestorm spawn clones that attack the targets instead of Ash himself. Hope my post actually helps.

Correction, don't really know how many clones spawn now depending on marks, noticed them, but still animation time too long and if "marking time" added, whole ability time is like half a minute.

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I like the changes.  Makes Ash feel much more like an actual ninja with active gameplay instead of a one button spammer.  Fatal Teleport and a balanced build is working nice for me.

My only issue is not knowing what enemies have been tagged.  In the stream they showed little triangle icons above enemy heads but I don't see those when I tag targets for Bladestorm.

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Good point on the cutscenes. The rework gave players a period of interactivity before Blade Storm triggers, but locks them in once it starts. I haven't tested the new version yet, so I am curious if Ash (the player) has to sit through the entirety of up to 60~ enemies' worth of cutscenes?

Edited by PsiWarp
Thread is now merged with Megathread, comment no longer makes sense!
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So I've run a dozen or so missions using ash now and...  My initial impressions are mostly favourable.  Smokescreen in particular feels a lot better to use. 

Bladestorm though...  While the marking targets mechanic feels more in line with the ninja theme, the actual attack part of the ability still feels clunky and unrewarding to use.  It actively breaks up the flow of combat, locking you into what effectively amounts to a cutscene, until the animations finish and you're plopped back out into the middle of a bunch of enemies that have continued to move and fire the entire time.

I think my main problem is that the attack section of the ability isn't immediate enough.  It takes time to set up the marks so it feels like the attacks themselves should be almost instant -- near-simultaneous assassinations of the designated enemies.  Instead, it feels like the entire ability has been nerfed by the changes.  It's harder to use, takes time to set up, and still has all the problems that the old version of the ability had.

As a fix, I'd probably suggest simply making the attack section of the ability utilize more ash clones so that more enemies are hit simultaneously and the entire cutscene/attack lasts the duration of one of the assassination animations.

Alternatively, you could simply remove the locked cutscene element of the ability and allow ash to move and maneuver normally while a bunch of clones appear and kill his opponents...

Edited by DEDENX
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"At first I was afraid, I was petrified..." about the bladestorm change, but now that I've tested it myself I am loving it. The whole Ash rework has just impoved my gameplay and made it lot more fun. Smoke screen change has made my life a lot easier in particular. The only thing I don't like is that , as far as I know, you are not able to simply exit the bladestorm mode. You are forced to execute it on at least one enemy, and I have found myself a few times wishing to simply get out of the targeting mode. 

 Thank you for the rework, you did an amazing job.

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8 minutes ago, MS6lunchbox said:

I'll give it a try before posting anything else, however based on the multitude of other peoples replies and feedback, I still hold to my thoughts here. If the notes are supposed to mean something other than what they describe, then they should be re-written. I've seen several comments here so far that contradict what you just said about the clones.

I wrote it exactly how it plays.
1 mark = Ash teleports in and does the animation just how it was before.
3 marks on 1 target = Ash teleports in and does the animation. You return to your previous location and the other 2 marks are executed by your clones.
3 marks each on multiple targets = Ash teleports in and does the bladestorm attack on the first enemy and then proceeds to do the bladestorm animation once for each enemy. The clones take care of the other marks. In the end, you will return to your position and the clones will be finishing up the last 3 enemies' marks.

Suggestion: To alleviate waiting time, every enemy hit with bladestorm speeds up Ash's animations on all subsequent targets. Clone speed is not affected.

Edited by Celetille
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2 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

That's World on Fire with 3 targets hit at once. No thanks.

Out of all that though, you do have a good point on the cutscenes. The rework gave players a period of interactivity before Blade Storm triggers, but locks them in once it starts. I haven't tested the new version yet, so I am curious if Ash (the player) has to sit through the entirety of up to 60~ enemies' worth of cutscenes?

If you haven't testet yet, how can you say it's... Wof with 3 targets at once ?? I missed something here.

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17 minutes ago, MrM1 said:

The ability was too overpowered. If you suggest to add another clone to attack the marked targets while you can walk around and do other things, it would be even more overpowered.

 

I have that feeling that 90% of the Warframe community can't live without powercreep...

This right here ^

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23 minutes ago, Stonehenge said:

If you haven't testet yet, how can you say it's... Wof with 3 targets at once ?? I missed something here.

It's still the OP's thread, so I am replying to his rework of the rework. Nevermind, megathreaded now.

Edited by PsiWarp
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22 minutes ago, MrM1 said:

The ability was too overpowered. If you suggest to add another clone to attack the marked targets while you can walk around and do other things, it would be even more overpowered.

 

I have that feeling that 90% of the Warframe community can't live without powercreep...

You could reduce the damage that a single clone does, while still limiting the total kills per use to 12/18 or whatever. I'm not saying buff the damage, they can even lower it for all I care, as I mentioned, in fact, but give the player autonomy while the clones run through the animations that they want to keep. And, as an aside, if 90% of the community wants something... doesn't that mean that they should get it?

But either way, my point is to give the player autonomy and remove the annoying targeting of every. Single. Enemy. That. You. Want. To. Kill. An ultimate ability is ultimate, and the current system breaks gameflow hellishly.

In fact, go the way of Saryn! Enemies inside of smokescreen or hit by a shuriken can take more damage, as well as enemies with a bleed proc already on them, while other enemies take much lower damage.

 

11 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

That's World on Fire with 3 targets hit at once. No thanks.

Out of all that though, you do have a good point on the cutscenes. The rework gave players a period of interactivity before Blade Storm triggers, but locks them in once it starts. I haven't tested the new version yet, so I am curious if Ash (the player) has to sit through the entirety of up to 60~ enemies' worth of cutscenes?

And yes, you do. It is also a lot quicker, so even more location changes. 

Edited by Alpha_Zerg
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7 minutes ago, Celetille said:

I wrote it exactly how it plays.
1 mark = Ash teleports in and does the animation just how it was before.
3 marks on 1 target = Ash teleports in and does the animation. You return to your previous location and the other 2 marks are executed by your clones.
3 marks each on multiple targets = Ash teleports in and does the bladestorm attack on the first enemy and then proceeds to do the bladestorm animation once for each enemy. The clones take care of the other marks. In the end, you will return to your position and the clones will be finishing up the last 3 enemies' marks.

Suggestion: To alleviate waiting time, every enemy hit with bladestorm speeds up Ash's animations on all subsequent targets. Clone speed is not affected.

I was about to post another reply saying that about how marks and clones work. I've come to understand that after a while. Your suggestion seems nice to me, having Ash's own animation time lower with more marks, would definetily help. Rework also help us avoid the annoying "Endless attacks on elite unit while whole squad can't attack and sit watching enemy get tortured to death". Also got to do something about Marks.. Can't really expect players to see those little faded marks above targets in the midst of battle.. Maybe next to enemy health bar like or something like that would help.

Edited by Dimzor
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While everyone is complaining about not hitting enemies through walls, or having to manually mark and taking a lot longer, I am more concerned with the fact that Ash seems to have gotten a rather sizeable energy nerf for Bladestorm. 

Yeah, you can get refunded if your squad mate kills the enemy, but let's just compare it to regular bladestorm. 

The old Bladestorm cost 100 energy to cast and could attack up to 17 times. That is roughly 5.9 energy cost per time that Ash attacks during Bladestorm. 

With the new Bladestorm, every mark (which is every attack once you press four again) costs fifteen energy. This is almost 10 more energy per attack than it used to cost to do a single Bladestorm attack with Ash when efficiently going after a large group of mobs. Not only is it almost 10 more energy, it is almost THREE TIMES as much energy cost as before for a single attack using Bladestorm. 

This is the real nerf. The marking system already slows us down (although the skill did need to be interactive somehow, and I can't exactly think of a better way that wouldn't be way too OP), but this was not necessary. Nerfing the energy for Ash into the ground, especially when he is now going to rely way more on duration, especially when he has a pretty small energy pool compared to most frames to begin with. 

I saw the primetime where Rebecca was talking about Ash being able to just keep marking enemies forever if he had more energy from EV/orbs/pads/etc. and how this might not last. The sad thing is they made the energy cost too high, and still left it exploitable in the first place! 

The energy cost per mark is way too high, it is 3x what it used to be almost, and that is not okay. Stop people from exploiting Bladestorm by marking enemies forever, but also do bring the cost down to something reasonable. 

At the very, very, very least, marking an enemy multiple times should be less energy per mark. 

 

Edit: Oh and I would add, they allow us to only use 10 energy per mark if we are invisible, as if that is somehow a bonus, when it is a major nerf on top of bladestorm now being wayt slower and clunkier. But 10 energy per mark isn't a bonus! That is still almost twice as much as it used to cost to mark a single enemy on average! It is still a major nerf! 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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As a former Ash main...

Jesse-Pinkman-Crying-Breaking-Bad.gif

I've moved onto other frames, so it's not a biggie to me...  (I play frames mostly for looks, because I enjoy guns and swords more than casting anyways.)  HOWEVER...  If I'm going to use a reticule to mark targets for bladestorm why wouldn't I just shoot them instead?  LMAO.

Sorry DE...  This one was half baked...  =/

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So far my experience with the rework is pretty positive:

Casting smoke screen is a lot nicer and BS targeting aim is pretty responsive but it feels like we need a little extra in one of these fields:

- a longer duration invis cause Ash needs an efficiency build to work well in crowds and it hurts duration pretty badly.

- lessened cost for marking as cost/hit is pretty bad for builds not focused on power eff.

- buff BS damage so you don't have to remark as much

 

Overall now ash builds benefit more from efficiency and duration but it makes strength a problem so a little loosened leash on one of these would be a breath of fresh air.

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2 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

While everyone is complaining about not hitting enemies through walls, or having to manually mark and taking a lot longer, I am more concerned with the fact that Ash seems to have gotten a rather sizeable energy nerf for Bladestorm. 

Y[...]

Vortexed within 

 

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