with the deconstruction of everything ash u need to boost stealth duration to that of loki at the very minimum

[Snargleflax]

6 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

"Oh no... that press to win button is gone, i have to play to get a kill... poor poor me..."

Get real, its not much of a job to mark enemies, you can alternatively go invisible and use a melee weapon, or use Fatal Teleport between enemies.

Yes sure, you can use Ignis, or Tonkor, or Soma Prime, or Boltor Prime, or Synoid Simulor, or Zarr, or Vaykor Hek, or any of the Tigris, if we follow that reasoning why use powers at all.

u know if u actually played ash ever u already did that nothing changed except the power is no longer aoe its stupid there is absolutely no point in doint anything but fatal teleport now.....

[John89brensen]

3 minutes ago, Kyronz said:

ahh you have not played him since change, he is worthless in groups targeting takes so long his one other dmg skill is precluded by an aura and pointless.

Even solo you will pop energy buttons and the energy rate kills his dmg anyways, assuming half the targets marked actually get the ult.   The problem is that the ult is  latent targeting so useless.  Yeah in theory you can mark 10 targetr, in group mode half of those will be dead, solo mode ash will be dead from trash invis.

The only solution to salvage this frame is active targeting like mesa *who only screws over the color blind*.

I have been using him all afternoon since the update, and frankly it is quite easy to target enemies, even under fire. Old BS was boring as hell, run at room full of enemies, press 4, all dead. Now this systems is by no means revolutionary, but at least its more balanced, especially if you are playing as a team. Now you can easily target groups of enemies for murder, even selecting priority targets. I still think this needs more work, but its a step in the right direction.

And no, Ash has no trash invisibility, i've been test running him on high level spy (i always use Ivara for Spy) missions and completed the level without triggering a single alarm. Sure, he isnt Ivara or Loki, which means that if you want to remain undetected you need to carefully target which enemies are gonna get BS.

[John89brensen]

6 minutes ago, Snargleflax said:

u know if u actually played ash ever u already did that nothing changed except the power is no longer aoe its stupid there is absolutely no point in doint anything but fatal teleport now.....

I play Ash quite often, i dont have a main, i just rotate between whatever frame suits the mission. And if you only used Ash for BS and its aoe, then you are the one who has a problem using the frame.

Edit: In any case we are derailing from the topic of the post. I reiterate, Ash has no need of a longer duration to his invisibility.

Edited November 26, 2016 by John89brensen

[Noobverest]

5 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

Quite serious actually, you are the one that brought up Ignis, so...

Then I'll give you a serious reply since you don't know that abilities do more than just kill...... Especially if they're the 4th ability.

Nova slows and boosts damage. At low levels you don't need to use it, but at higher levels it helps a ton because of how slow the enemies get.

Trinity heals and gives damage reduction

Equinox kills and heals with an ability that scales with enemies

Inaros makes armor that gives himself survaibility and if he really wants to, he can heal others too

Chroma can set up a sentry that helps with defense

Mag has a hold and can augment it to hold people for a few more seconds

Excalibur has a sword wave that can destroy enemies in a line. The damage is high enough that it works in higher levels too, and it is also really energy efficient.

Mesa has a gun that can aim-bot everything in sight.

Ivara has a bow that scales and synergizes with her 1 to allow for fast ability arrow shots via. alt fire.

Valkyr has invulnerability, and has a high damage claw ability

 

Ash's 4 only did one thing: Kill things faster than a gun, through walls.

 

Now? It's weaker than my gun, and I can't tag stuff through walls. It costs so much energy, that it's not even worth using.

 

Before anyone comments about Ash taking forever to kill ancient's. I'll add: You can't save stupid.

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Noobverest

[John89brensen]

7 minutes ago, Noobverest said:

Snip

Ash's 4 only did one thing: Kill things faster than a gun, through walls.

 

Now? It's weaker than my gun, and I can't tag stuff through walls. It costs so much energy, that it's not even worth using.

 

Before anyone comments about Ash taking forever to kill ancient's. I'll add: You can't save stupid.

 

First, no Ash certainly didnt kill faster than a weapon, but it prevented other players from killing "marked" targets. And if killing fast and through walls is the point, then just as easily you use Ember, or Saryn.

Secondly, Ash old BS was good for killing, the new BS is still good for killing, and about the damage, it deals more damage than a lot of weapons.

Lastly, and most important, this is not the topic of the thread, none of this has anything to do with Ash requiring a longer duration to Smoke Bomb.

[kaliazane]

5 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

First, no Ash certainly didnt kill faster than a weapon

Im not sure what game you are playing.

[John89brensen]

1 minute ago, ViS4GE said:

Im not sure what game you are playing.

The same as you, evidently i use other things than Ash.

[Kyronz]

6 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

The same as you, evidently i use other things than Ash.

What you are missing is that ash is now lowest of dmg pile with an unreliable ult.   Ash one role was dps, or at least not being a burden, with ash worthless secondary skills ash is a burden, even if we skip over the terrible spin and press EEEEEEEEEEEEEE mechanics, for mobs that will be dead long before ult triggers.

[John89brensen]

11 minutes ago, Kyronz said:

What you are missing is that ash is now lowest of dmg pile with an unreliable ult.   

Look i just went back to the simulacrum, and let me tell you, 2000 base damage is not the "lowest of damage pile", and the ult certainly isnt unreliable. I tested against level 100 Corrupted Bombards with no strength mods, and marking the Bombards 3 times each. By the time BS was done they had lost about half their hp, but the slash proc kept hitting them by 2000 a tick until they both died.

 

15 minutes ago, Kyronz said:

Ash one role was dps, or at least not being a burden, with ash worthless secondary skills ash is a burden

Ash role as a dps is unchanged, what its no longer is, is a press 4 to win frame. And ash secondary abilities were never worthless, you just dont know how to use them.

Also, perhaps you dont realise, Ash wasnt rejected on teams because he was a burden, he was rejected because he was a fun killer for the rest of the team, especially when used by people how have no idea how the game works (as in bringing Ash to radiation hazard missions)

[Snargleflax]

55 minutes ago, Noobverest said:

Then I'll give you a serious reply since you don't know that abilities do more than just kill...... Especially if they're the 4th ability.

Nova slows and boosts damage. At low levels you don't need to use it, but at higher levels it helps a ton because of how slow the enemies get.

Trinity heals and gives damage reduction

Equinox kills and heals with an ability that scales with enemies

Inaros makes armor that gives himself survaibility and if he really wants to, he can heal others too

Chroma can set up a sentry that helps with defense

Mag has a hold and can augment it to hold people for a few more seconds

Excalibur has a sword wave that can destroy enemies in a line. The damage is high enough that it works in higher levels too, and it is also really energy efficient.

Mesa has a gun that can aim-bot everything in sight.

Ivara has a bow that scales and synergizes with her 1 to allow for fast ability arrow shots via. alt fire.

Valkyr has invulnerability, and has a high damage claw ability

 

Ash's 4 only did one thing: Kill things faster than a gun, through walls.

 

Now? It's weaker than my gun, and I can't tag stuff through walls. It costs so much energy, that it's not even worth using.

 

Before anyone comments about Ash taking forever to kill ancient's. I'll add: You can't save stupid.

 

this guy the thru walls and up on void balconys was the main reason for the use of this not laziness

[Snargleflax]

i ran ash in sortie 2 today (oh yay first day of trash items and i got one of the trash items double yay) and i must say the on the move smoke bomb is nice it works better than loki's and u can fatal teleport while doing it (also i bladestormed a basic enemy and it didn't die triple yay)

[kaliazane]

Before rework today I changed one of my highly contested loadout slots to Ash, now I changed it back to Mag.

Problem solved.

[rangeless]

1 hour ago, Cloud said:

Double trickery + naramon = trash duration on your build

This is the go-to setup. Use vitality and rage to purposely let your energy fill up. Life strike with melee weapon to heal and Naramon provides up to 10 secs of invisibility. Then hit 4, mark enemies, and destroy them all!

Edited November 26, 2016 by rangeless

[(PSN)Puckish_Rogue125]

5 hours ago, Snargleflax said:

i understand what u guys are saying but with max duration with fleeting on i get 15 seconds it will take 7 to mark everything and then its gonna be 7 to go thru the animation then u will stand still for the heavy gunner u couldn't kill with 3 marks to shoot u in the face in a sortie the instant the animation is over

Then how bout not mark the heavy gunner, let someone more capable do it. Plan better and learn what to do and what not yo do. All you lot just sound like you want an easymode win button. 

[Kyronz]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)thedarkness1962 said:

Then how bout not mark the heavy gunner, let someone more capable do it. Plan better and learn what to do and what not yo do. All you lot just sound like you want an easymode win button. 

easier just to bring a dps frame and focus on the other 40+ mobs in focus   We get it, ash no longer DPS and no longer has the skills to do much of anything, that is a DE problem, not one among us.

 

[John89brensen]

23 minutes ago, Kyronz said:

easier just to bring a dps frame and focus on the other 40+ mobs in focus   We get it, ash no longer DPS and no longer has the skills to do much of anything, that is a DE problem, not one among us.

 

God... Ash is still very much a dps frame, you just need to get used to how his ulti works now. If you thought that only BS made Ash useful, then you clearly dont know how to play him.

Edited November 26, 2016 by John89brensen

[Kyronz]

11 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

God... Ash is still very much a dps frame, you just need to get used to how his ulti works now. If you thought that only BS made Ash useful, then you clearly dont know how to play him.

All frames are DPS frames if you dig that low, it is just ash skill that due to the time implement have been rendered useless.

active targeting like mesa could have solved it, ash could still do the same lame dmg but only when a target is highlighted, but nope.... we now have a time lag involved that means ash might if things go well do DPM instead of DPS

Edited November 26, 2016 by Kyronz

[Kyronz]

All of which would be moot if ash was not a crippled loki to start with.

[John89brensen]

43 minutes ago, Kyronz said:

All frames are DPS frames if you dig that low, it is just ash skill that due to the time implement have been rendered useless.

active targeting like mesa could have solved it, ash could still do the same lame dmg but only when a target is highlighted, but nope.... we now have a time lag involved that means ash might if things go well do DPM instead of DPS

This is simple not true.

First not all frames are DPS, for example Loki, he doesnt have a single damaging ability.

And second you need to do some testing, i've been testing Ash on the simulacrum against 140lvl enemies and turning them into a bloody mess.

And what do you mean by active targeting? You mark the targets you point to, hit 4 and done, they are dead. The time lag is a side effect of removing the press 4 to win mechanic, or what did you expect that to remain forever? Devs said they would remove this a long time ago. Im not saying that BS is perfect now, but a clear step in the right direction.

Also, this is clearly beyond the original topic, which was Smoke Screen duration.

[Kyronz]

we agree to disagree.  Go do some random pugs to find out why time lapse targeting sucks.

[John89brensen]

4 minutes ago, Kyronz said:

we agree to disagree.  Go do some random pugs to find out why time lapse targeting sucks.

I have, and no it doesnt, i ended on top of the killing list, except when an ember joined. You are just complaining because you lost your "press 4 to clear to room of everything" button. 

Go do some real testing, you'll see that Ash can kill the same enemies he could kill before.

[Kyronz]

28 minutes ago, John89brensen said:

I have, and no it doesnt, i ended on top of the killing list, except when an ember joined. You are just complaining because you lost your "press 4 to clear to room of everything" button. 

Go do some real testing, you'll see that Ash can kill the same enemies he could kill before.

i been here since closed beta, being on top of dmg list is no measure of anything.  Either you had a spectular run, were not very beneficial to group or did not run one with ash.

 

there is no other option for someone who has had to pan around to find a target, double click and lose energy...are you even familiar with the mechanics they forced on us?

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Kyronz

[Kyronz]

Bladestorm is EEEEEEEEEEEE drained..crap they all dead already..well i hit 4 anyways

 

[John89brensen]

16 minutes ago, Kyronz said:

i been here since closed beta, being on top of dmg list is no measure of anything.  Either you had a spectular run, were not very beneficial to group or did not run one with ash.

I get it, you do not play ash or the game and are employed by DE.

Well, i've been here since closed beta too, but i have no idea what the hell thas that have to do with bladestorm. 

You complain that the "timelag" doesnt let you kill as effectively as before, which in Ash's case means being on top of the list, except when there are better aoe killers. So i provided an example. It might take more time for Ash to clear a room (an insignifican amount tbh) but he still can kill high level enemies, just as easily as before.

If you read before i stated i dont have a main, i move around frames, however i do enjoy Ash quite a lot, like all stealth frames. In fact of all the frames that got their ulti modified Ash is the one i spent the most time testing post update. I like how you eneded your argument with an ad hominem, but frankly personal attacks bring nothing to the discussion, this just shows how much has this thread derailed.

Edit: btw might be an error, but your profile says you joined in january 2014, that was not during closed beta.

Edited November 26, 2016 by John89brensen

[Lokidus_Prime]

8 hours ago, Cyborg-Rox said:

Not to mention that you're crippling your Radial Disarm with an Invisibility build.

Gonna have to disagree on that - it all depends on how you set up yer build.  My main build has 273% duration and 205% range with the arcane swindle helmet (190% without the arcane helmet).  Have 130% efficiency but with the size of Loki Prime's energy pool + Zenurik's regen, I often find I have more energy than i know what to do with.  I use this build to solo 80~90% of my sorties without much of an issue, which I do run into plenty of situations where radial disarm is just as crucial to my survival / mission success as the invisibility is.