with the deconstruction of everything ash u need to boost stealth duration to that of loki at the very minimum

[Kyronz]

I have been humoring you. So go try to test it, stop reading the patch notes and actually use an ash in a mission with a pug, i wait....come back with all this baloney and tell me how great it was.

I straight out do not believe you have played ash since the change.

[kyori]

For Ash's smoke screen duration to be high, his bladestorm power is low. So there is no balance. Maybe that is the build that players keep saying they see ash hitting an ancient disruptor for minutes...

Ash's main power is still in killing... aka bladestorm. I would use Loki is I want invisibility because Loki doesn't have a 'killing' main power.

It is a waste of Ash's killing power to have him main in invisibility.

[Cyborg-Rox]

3 hours ago, Sin1989 said:

Gonna have to disagree on that - it all depends on how you set up yer build.  My main build has 273% duration and 205% range with the arcane swindle helmet (190% without the arcane helmet).  Have 130% efficiency but with the size of Loki Prime's energy pool + Zenurik's regen, I often find I have more energy than i know what to do with.  I use this build to solo 80~90% of my sorties without much of an issue, which I do run into plenty of situations where radial disarm is just as crucial to my survival / mission success as the invisibility is.

 

 

Ah, I see. You think everyone's gonna be able/willing to get those Arcane helmets though?

[John89brensen]

6 hours ago, Kyronz said:

I have been humoring you. So go try to test it, stop reading the patch notes and actually use an ash in a mission with a pug, i wait....come back with all this baloney and tell me how great it was.

I straight out do not believe you have played ash since the change.

Yesterday i spent a good couple of hours playing Ash, doing whatever mission i needed, sadly i had already completed my Sorties so i could not test him there, i also tried him in the simulacrum vs level 140 enemies, so i have some proof to claim that he is still deals excelent damage, he just works differently now. But hey, if you are  gonna keep on going with the personal attacks, questioning my honesty, then we dont have much to argue about. Ad hominem is a nice way of showing that you cannot hold your own arguments, so perhaps do some testing before questioning others.

Also, this has nothing to do with the boost to stealth duration op was requesting.

Edited November 26, 2016 by John89brensen

[John89brensen]

6 hours ago, Sin1989 said:

Gonna have to disagree on that - it all depends on how you set up yer build.  My main build has 273% duration and 205% range with the arcane swindle helmet (190% without the arcane helmet).  Have 130% efficiency but with the size of Loki Prime's energy pool + Zenurik's regen, I often find I have more energy than i know what to do with.  I use this build to solo 80~90% of my sorties without much of an issue, which I do run into plenty of situations where radial disarm is just as crucial to my survival / mission success as the invisibility is.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Cyborg-Rox said:

Ah, I see. You think everyone's gonna be able/willing to get those Arcane helmets though?

Arcane helmets are not absolutely necessary, you can run a duration + range build with streamline just fine. i personally never liked how most alt helmets for Loki look, i only use Enigma, or the prime variant, neither of which have stat change.

[Cubewano]

I'd honestly prefer smokescreen be remade entirely as its own skill than be made even further into a clone of a preexisting frames skill. Make into an actual smoke bomb with some area coverage, and enemies inside it maybe can't see you from within it, or even get confused and are able to shoot each other while in the cloud, or something else that gives the skill it's own identity/distinguishes it. 

[Xgomme]

17 hours ago, Xekrin said:

Most likely the energy cost will be reduced for visible marking as well as invis marking.  Being invisible is supposed to be a bonus not mandatory.  While keeping invis for as long as possible is always nice, Ash doesn't require it as much as loki does.  A small duration boost wouldn't be bad but I'd never expect a loki-type increase.

3 things need to happen though.

• slight reduction to current mark cost (15 is really too high)
• We need a 'mark' counter, because why not.
• allow range to affect smoke bomb augment

Threw that last one in there because why not, people keep asking for it.

+ Change the augment of BS to replace cinematic cam with smoke clones.

The actual augment is useless and a lot of people still hate the cinematic ult

[DJ_Redwire]

The problem here isn't Smokescreen, it's (new) Bladestorm. Trying to band-aid the problem with giving Smokescreen a longer duration is just treating a symptom, not the source. I can be invisible all day long, but that's not going to make Bladestorm any more fun or any less clunky to use. 

I play Ash a lot and was really excited about the prospect of a rework. But I knew, and as it came to pass, that if they just simply tried to 'fix' Bladestorm, whatever fix they came up with would just feel bad, and perhaps feel even worse than the original. Which it does. Arguing semantics about stats and mechanics tweaks will do absolutely nothing to fix the root of the problems with his power set.

I wish deeply that DE had scrapped Bladestorm altogether and built Ash a new ultimate from the ground up like they did with Excalibur. But alas, here we are, with a solution that does nothing to fix any of the actual QOL problems with Bladestorm (animations, game control, etc.)

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by DJ_Redwire

[Duerand]

3 hours ago, John89brensen said:

Yesterday i spent a good couple of hours playing Ash, doing whatever mission i needed, sadly i had already completed my Sorties so i could not test him there, i also tried him in the simulacrum vs level 140 enemies, so i have some proof to claim that he is still deals excelent damage, he just works differently now. But hey, if you are  gonna keep on going with the personal attacks, questioning my honesty, then we dont have much to argue about. Ad hominem is a nice way of showing that you cannot hold your own arguments, so perhaps do some testing before questioning others.

Also, this has nothing to do with the boost to stealth duration op was requesting.

Dude you sound like you are one of the developers that is trying to defend what EVERYONE else realizes was a bad way to do things but you want to convince them it wasn't. Problem is no matter how many times you spout bullS#&$ about it isn't bad, actual game play by other players will show them the truth. You are not going to change anybodies mind that has played Ash after the nerf and can plainly see how poorly the choice of changes were. It was simply a bad idea. It happens. Move on. 

Ash's other builds are not worth taking him into a group for. His fatal teleport build is nice and all but single target high damage is done FAR better by other frames that bring way more to the group. Bladestorm is virtually worthless at this point. Over half the targets I mark are dead before I set off my Bladestorm in group play. And the low damage it does now means it is ineffective against any higher level high armor mobs. I guess I could try to build for his number 1? Think that would work? LOL Oh wait Mesa already does that FAR better as well. 

Sorry but no matter how much you yell about how everyone else but you is doing it wrong and it is great how it is, actually game play proves you wrong every time. It is terrible. Back to the drawing board.

[John89brensen]

54 minutes ago, Duerand said:

Dude you sound like you are one of the developers that is trying to defend what EVERYONE else realizes was a bad way to do things but you want to convince them it wasn't. Problem is no matter how many times you spout bullS#&$ about it isn't bad, actual game play by other players will show them the truth. You are not going to change anybodies mind that has played Ash after the nerf and can plainly see how poorly the choice of changes were. It was simply a bad idea. It happens. Move on. 

Ash's other builds are not worth taking him into a group for. His fatal teleport build is nice and all but single target high damage is done FAR better by other frames that bring way more to the group. Bladestorm is virtually worthless at this point. Over half the targets I mark are dead before I set off my Bladestorm in group play. And the low damage it does now means it is ineffective against any higher level high armor mobs. I guess I could try to build for his number 1? Think that would work? LOL Oh wait Mesa already does that FAR better as well. 

Sorry but no matter how much you yell about how everyone else but you is doing it wrong and it is great how it is, actually game play proves you wrong every time. It is terrible. Back to the drawing board.

Im not saying BS is perfect, by any means, but the way it worked before made playing as Ash, or having someone play as Ash, a very repetitive and boring exercise, just like old Draco, just like exterminate with Ember, just like old miasma. Sure you lose the insane crowd clearing ability BS used to be, but damage is unchanged, although energy consumption is way higher than before. I certainly hope this is not the final state of BS, or that it gets changed for an altogether different ability. 

Also, im gessing you havent tested him either, Ash's current BS without strenght mods, can easily kill level 140 mobs, but it does get a bit harder with heavies.

As for Ash's utility in a group, Ash was always more of a solo oriented frame, and his BS spam could be easily replaced by any other aoe nuke, like Saryn, Ember, Equinox, RJ Excal, Quake Banshee, and so on. 

 

[Duerand]

3 hours ago, John89brensen said:

Im not saying BS is perfect, by any means, but the way it worked before made playing as Ash, or having someone play as Ash, a very repetitive and boring exercise, just like old Draco, just like exterminate with Ember, just like old miasma. Sure you lose the insane crowd clearing ability BS used to be, but damage is unchanged, although energy consumption is way higher than before. I certainly hope this is not the final state of BS, or that it gets changed for an altogether different ability. 

Also, im gessing you havent tested him either, Ash's current BS without strenght mods, can easily kill level 140 mobs, but it does get a bit harder with heavies.

As for Ash's utility in a group, Ash was always more of a solo oriented frame, and his BS spam could be easily replaced by any other aoe nuke, like Saryn, Ember, Equinox, RJ Excal, Quake Banshee, and so on. 

 

I do not disagree it was boring to play. But they did not change the boring part. They just added a step before it. Other than that the mechanic is EXACTLY the same. This did not in anyway fix what people were upset about. 

I have tested it. The damage drop off is due to the new mechanic and limit on how many times it can hit a mob. You say it kills just as effectively. My game play testing does not show that to be true. We will have to agree to disagree simply because I can not prove you wrong so I can not say you are.

Ash's only real utility is a group was his room clearing ability. At this point he is a lot less effective at that then other frames. I realize some people did not like the functionality of his usefulness before. But it was all he really had that he was one of the best at. He no longer has anything that he is the best at. He is a mid level frame now that can be replaced by many other frames that do the job far far better than he can at this point. He really brings nothing to the table that other frames can not do far better. 

He just does not feel like he has a place in end game. Like many other frames he will be regulated to the sidelines until things are changed some I think. 

This is all of course personal opinion. But it seems a GREAT deal of people agree with me. This was a poor design choice and should be reconsidered. :)

Edited November 26, 2016 by Duerand

[Noobverest]

10 minutes ago, Duerand said:

I do not disagree it was boring to play. But they did not change the boring part. They just added a step before it. Other than that the mechanic is EXACTLY the same. This did not in anyway fix what people were upset about. 

I have tested it. The damage drop off is due to the new mechanic and limit on how many times it can hit a mob. You say it kills just as effectively. My game play testing does not show that to be true. We will have to agree to disagree simply because I can not prove you wrong so I can not say you are.

Ash's only real utility is a group was his room clearing ability. At this point he is a lot less effective at that then other frames. I realize some people did not like the functionality of his usefulness before. But it was all he really had that he was one of the best at. He no longer has anything that he is the best at. He is a mid level frame now that can be replaced by many other frames that do the job far far better than he can at this point. He really brings nothing to the table that other frames can not do far better. 

He just does not feel like he has a place in end game. Like many other frames he will be regulated to the sidelines until things are changed some I think. 

This is all of course personal opinion. But it seems a GREAT deal of people agree with me. This was a poor design choice and should be reconsidered. :)

I agree with you

 

+1'd :)

[Skyblade799]

Ash is just too much of a hassle to use now. His lethal teleport is nice and all, but blade-storm was why he was actually used; for quick AOE enemy removal. Now he just falls below too many other frames to be as useful for either single target or crowd control. It's too slow to manually apply, in order to do the same thing as before (but much slower), all the while costing more on larger groups. When you have to target them all in the first place, it just becomes better to use a weapon. Personally, I don't think this revamp was good; It didn't solve the issues that needed solving (like enemy invincibility during animations), and neither does my friend who once used ash constantly, and now just doesn't want to touch him after a couple of runs through public.

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by Skyblade799