Who Else Wants A Synoid Simulor NERF?

[DreamsmithJane]

2 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

This is your opinion. Using the best, most efficient weapon is considered playing the game in well, every game ever made. When you're in a Battlefield game and there is a jeep and a tank available don't you take the tank? It's common sense. Saying players shouldn't be using a weapon is ridiculous, blame DE all you want if you don't like the balance, but saying a player isn't playing the game by using game content is way out in left field. You are assuming they share your opinion of the content in question.

If you have a problem with DE's content, then YOU should stay out of pubs, if the content you might encounter in pubs bothers you. I find no content in Pubs bothersome to me, so there is no reason I should stay out of pubs. Ditto the Simulor users. If they find no objectionable content in pubs, they should do pubs. The person who finds the content objectionable shouldn't do them, if that what it takes to have fun. Otherwise you are playing content police, determining which legal game content should and should not be used by other players in what situations.

No, they should stay out of pubs so they don't force their playstyle on everyone else. It's called common courtesy. Yes, I blame DE for designing a poorly balanced weapon, but that doesn't mean people using it to cheese the game are free from blame, any more than it would if they were exploiting a bug. I make no assumptions about their opinion of the content. This has nothing to do with opinions. Their actions objectively have an effect on other players.

Again, I don't want people to stop using Synoid Simulor. I don't even want it to be weaker. I want it to be changed so that it's not mindless and doesn't trivialize a majority of the game's content.

[Soketsu]

16 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Again, I don't want people to stop using Synoid Simulor. I don't even want it to be weaker. I want it to be changed so that it's not mindless and doesn't trivialize a majority of the game's content.

Cmon as if it was different without the SS, the problem is we are way too strong now the high level end game do not exist, our effective lvl is way too high for the lvl 1-60 content until the lvl 90 -100 foes they are not strong enough to be a threat for a tenno with an upgraded gear

[DreamsmithJane]

3 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

Cmon as if it was different without the SS, the problem is we are way too strong now the high level end game do not exist, our effective lvl is way too high for the lvl 1-60 content until the lvl 90 -100 foes they are not strong enough to be a threat for a tenno with an upgraded gear

While this is true, other weapons at least require a modicum of aiming to get the job done. When you can kill everything in the room in a sortie without even looking at it, there's obviously a problem that goes beyond power creep/over-leveled gear.

[Soketsu]

Just now, DreamsmithJane said:

While this is true, other weapons at least require a modicum of aiming to get the job done. When you can kill everything in the room in a sortie without even looking at it, there's obviously a problem that goes beyond power creep/over-leveled gear.

The problem I see with your logic is than even the slash damage from equinox is able to kill foe under the lvl 30-40 (even if it's not in a instant), and if I use any of my fully uppgraded aoe weapon or melee weapon with a good range it's the same thing, are they a problem too ?

[DreamsmithJane]

26 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

The problem I see with your logic is than even the slash damage from equinox is able to kill foe under the lvl 30-40 (even if it's not in a instant), and if I use any of my fully uppgraded aoe weapon or melee weapon with a good range it's the same thing, are they a problem too ?

I said sorties. The highest level enemies most players face. Synoid Simulor staggers them repeatedly, and kills them, without aiming at all. Of course a max rank Equinox with a reactor installed is going to mess up the weaker half of the game without breaking a sweat. Any high ranked and/or potatoed gear will do that. That's the nature of power progression. I am not talking about enemies under level 30. I'm talking about 60-100. At least Equinox has to rack up a few kills before nuking a room, and Ember has to switch to an Accelerant build and actually use her weapons. SySim gets results as much by spamming as by actually aiming, and poses no risk to the user, unlike a melee weapon, or any other AoE weapon except Tonkor and Torid (both of which have more limited ammo, and Tonkor is a frequent topic of complaint as well).

[Soketsu]

3 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

I said sorties. The highest level enemies most players face. Synoid Simulor staggers them repeatedly, and kills them, without aiming at all. Of course a max rank Equinox with a reactor installed is going to mess up the weaker half of the game without breaking a sweat. Any high ranked and/or potatoed gear will do that. That's the nature of power progression. I am not talking about enemies under level 30. I'm talking about 60-100. At least Equinox has to rack up a few kills before nuking a room, and Ember has to switch to an Accelerant build and actually use her weapons. SySim gets results as much by spamming as by actually aiming, and poses no risk to the user, unlike a melee weapon, or any other AoE weapon except Tonkor and Torid (both of which have more limited ammo, and Tonkor is a frequent topic of complaint as well).

yeah my bad, it's seem I need to go sleeping now :O

most of the time in sortie I see the combo mirage+SS get stopped any amored/aoe foe like a bursa and enchanced napalm but yes against lightly foe, it's a slaughter.

[LuckyCharm]

9 hours ago, ograzzt said:

@LuckyCharm Do you know why no one used regular Simulor before? Exactly because of very low range of aoe.

Probably more that it took an extra shot to get the same result since it needed one more orb to make the vortex. Well that and the blueprint was simaris rep. Not sure if its damage was buffed for synoid though

[White_Matter]

We want it removed. I don't mind it being OP. The main issue is that it hurts other peoples gameplay.

 

[Luther848]

4 hours ago, ADirtyMonk said:

Because my understanding of the weapon is that it should function as a kind of delayed large AOE, high burst damage weapon. Drop down a few orbs in the middle of a crowd close enough so they start moving toward each other to merge, and parkour away before they do so players need to be somewhat considerate of their shot placement instead of current mindless run forward and spam powerful explosions without consequence which the weapon encourages now.

The S Simulor alone is pretty damn strong (regular simulor needs a buff) and mirage brings it over the top like she does with a lot of other weapons which she is supposed to do. If a good mirage can use the weapon with self damage that's amazing and they deserve to crush everything in their way but if they mess up they are probably dead because they just hit themselves with self damage x3 whereas a regular frame only takes a bit of self damage unless they decide to be brain dead and spam while standing in the AOE. Not instantly killing yourself for being in the AOE is already incredibly forgiving for an explosive weapon in warframe not counting the quanta secondary fire and the tonkor.

The Simulor is more of a Defensive weapon where it can hold down points and protect objectives. If you have to jump away each and every time you merge orbs you aren't protecting the objective very well. The Simulor's range is also too low (the orb firing range) to used at a distance so it would be difficult to use it in a method where you won't get harmed and have consistent damage. The Simulor gets all its damage from the orb fusion so if you have to retreat from the orb you can't damage enemies anymore making it incredibly inconsistent. If you don't 1-shot the group of enemies they'll still be around making it more difficult to go in for a second attack. At that point you might as well use litterally any other launcher and get the job done faster. 

Also with your suggestion Mirage doesn't need to be good to use the S Simulor they just need a lot of Health restores. It doesn't fix the problem and it can also be abused by frames that are benefit from Self-Damage such as Chroma who can the use the damage to not only boost his damage but also gain energy. In fact any frame with Rage and some way to restore health can now use the S Simulor as an infinite energy regen with no real risk to themselves. Heck any frame with 600 health (after modding) can ignore the damage by putting down a Health pizza.

Your suggestion fails to fix the problem because you are focused on the wrong issue. It's not the Simulor itself causing the problems it's the fact that Mirage can completely ignore the setup phase that the weapon naturally has to balance it and can pump out far more damage than orginally intended. The S. Simulor is an amazing Defensive weapon but ultimately has been exploited by Mirages clones to create an overpowered Offensive weapon.

[Fast_98]

1 hour ago, LuckyCharm said:

Probably more that it took an extra shot to get the same result since it needed one more orb to make the vortex. Well that and the blueprint was simaris rep. Not sure if its damage was buffed for synoid though

Take an extra shot , has a smaller radius but it actually does more damage.

 

Also here both of their disadvantages:

1. Need stationary target  (pods) or enemies have to rush you for full effect  (in real missions most enemies run to cover)

2. Low fire rate.

3. If orbs are too far then they won't interact or will take forever to merge.

4. shooting range is pathetic. Most shotguns have larger ranges so run around enemies and avoid getting shot while waiting for it merge.

5. It actually doesn't cause infinite stagger. ( sorta does until you have to reload).

6. Enemies actually escape it range because of said stagger so so you have make a new vortex quickly or get gunned down.

The problem is actually not the gun but actually Mirage. Think about it every time you seen this gun it practically always in her hands, she get rid of all its downside. If anything Mirage deserves a nerf not the gun. If we nerf ss simulor into garbage ( yah restrict choice in a game where 90% of guns are mastery fodder) Mirage will continue on and use a new aoe gun and cause it downfall.

 

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

If it had to be given a nerf I would reduce the range by a small but not drastic %, damage wise even with a few forma is suffers against higher level enemies due to damage falloff. Can I also point out that using a mirage with any weapon suffers the 'hall of mirrors' affect and even a S#&$ty weapon can become fantastic with 4 other clones shooting. So the mirage + simulor argument doesn't warrant the main reason to nerf it.

On 28/11/2016 at 10:15 AM, Fast_98 said:

How to nerf the simulor.

Make the orbs only have dull colors.

Remove it sound.

Allow the orbs to not merge with the originals or other clones orbs.

Done

Aren't those already based on your energy colour anyway? If I use black energy colour the orbs are black.

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

3 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

No, they should stay out of pubs so they don't force their playstyle on everyone else. It's called common courtesy. Yes, I blame DE for designing a poorly balanced weapon, but that doesn't mean people using it to cheese the game are free from blame, any more than it would if they were exploiting a bug. 

Again, I don't want people to stop using Synoid Simulor. I don't even want it to be weaker. I want it to be changed so that it's not mindless and doesn't trivialize a majority of the game's content.

Take it against higher level enemies and the damage fallout is only too obvious, I've taken synoid simulor into derelict survival and up to a certain point enemies aren't able to be one shot killed by the synoid simulor even if you have forma, pop in a split chamber/maxed serration/heavy caliber/damage combo. On the contrary the simulor's a different weapon to the rest of them, we have bows, beam based, burst rifles, snipers etc and the simulor is pretty much crowd control that's mostly effective when it makes the black hole.

 

[Fast_98]

24 minutes ago, LittleArachnid said:

If it had to be given a nerf I would reduce the range by a small but not drastic %, damage wise even with a few forma is suffers against higher level enemies due to damage falloff. Can I also point out that using a mirage with any weapon suffers the 'hall of mirrors' affect and even a S#&$ty weapon can become fantastic with 4 other clones shooting. So the mirage + simulor argument doesn't warrant the main reason to nerf it.

Aren't those already based on your energy colour anyway? If I use black energy colour the orbs are black.

Yah but the idea is that if I choose got pink or something it become a dull color instead of a miniature sun.

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

1 hour ago, Fast_98 said:

Yah but the idea is that if I choose got pink or something it become a dull color instead of a miniature sun.

Ah okay, my bad for not completely understanding your meaning for dull colours. That wouldn't be a bad change actually.

[Shockwave-]

6 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

No, they should stay out of pubs so they don't force their playstyle on everyone else. It's called common courtesy. Yes, I blame DE for designing a poorly balanced weapon, but that doesn't mean people using it to cheese the game are free from blame, any more than it would if they were exploiting a bug. I make no assumptions about their opinion of the content. This has nothing to do with opinions. Their actions objectively have an effect on other players.

Again, I don't want people to stop using Synoid Simulor. I don't even want it to be weaker. I want it to be changed so that it's not mindless and doesn't trivialize a majority of the game's content.

This is rediculos. You are forcing your playstyle on others by saying they shouldn't be in pubs. In addition you can say this about anything. I hate speed novas in defense so no speed novas should join defense because they are forcing their playstyle on me. Sorry, that's what public games are. Come as you are. If encountering a certain playstyle in a public match bothers you, then you should avoid pubs.

The are 100% free from blame. They are not exploiting a bug. They are using a legal weapon, that does exactly what they want it to do. There is literally no blame that can be placed on them. This has everything to do with opinion. "cheesing the game" as you put it is an opinion. If they don't think it's cheesing the game, there is nothing wrong with them using it. Your entire premise is based on them agreeing with your opinion that it's cheese.

[EinheriarJudith]

8 hours ago, ADirtyMonk said:

Because my understanding of the weapon is that it should function as a kind of delayed large AOE, high burst damage weapon. Drop down a few orbs in the middle of a crowd close enough so they start moving toward each other to merge, and parkour away before they do so players need to be somewhat considerate of their shot placement instead of current mindless run forward and spam powerful explosions without consequence which the weapon encourages now.

The S Simulor alone is pretty damn strong (regular simulor needs a buff) and mirage brings it over the top like she does with a lot of other weapons which she is supposed to do. If a good mirage can use the weapon with self damage that's amazing and they deserve to crush everything in their way but if they mess up they are probably dead because they just hit themselves with self damage x3 whereas a regular frame only takes a bit of self damage unless they decide to be brain dead and spam while standing in the AOE. Not instantly killing yourself for being in the AOE is already incredibly forgiving for an explosive weapon in warframe not counting the quanta secondary fire and the tonkor.

EXACTLY. the only reason imo people flock to tonkor is no self damage. usage will drop if DE changes that.

Edited November 30, 2016 by EinheriarJudith

[ograzzt]

7 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

Probably more that it took an extra shot to get the same result since it needed one more orb to make the vortex. Well that and the blueprint was simaris rep. Not sure if its damage was buffed for synoid though

Vortexes have nothing to do with this. They are almost useless, main source of Simulor power was always stacking orbs damage. But regular Simulor had such low aoe range that you couldn't use it. It was literally useless garbage. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by ograzzt

[DreamsmithJane]

1 hour ago, Shockwave- said:

This is rediculos. You are forcing your playstyle on others by saying they shouldn't be in pubs. In addition you can say this about anything. I hate speed novas in defense so no speed novas should join defense because they are forcing their playstyle on me. Sorry, that's what public games are. Come as you are. If encountering a certain playstyle in a public match bothers you, then you should avoid pubs.

The are 100% free from blame. They are not exploiting a bug. They are using a legal weapon, that does exactly what they want it to do. There is literally no blame that can be placed on them. This has everything to do with opinion. "cheesing the game" as you put it is an opinion. If they don't think it's cheesing the game, there is nothing wrong with them using it. Your entire premise is based on them agreeing with your opinion that it's cheese.

Ridiculous. I am not forcing anything on anyone. Obviously. They are still joining public games. I don't abandon the mission, I don't say anything in-game, and I don't passive-aggressively refuse to cooperate. I behave with consideration for my fellow players, because it's the decent thing to do. They, on the other hand, are forcing their playstyle on me, because what they do directly affects my game experience, and I don't have a say in the matter as long as we both get put in the same squads. You've got this completely backwards. Shared public spaces require people to behave with dignity and respect for others, in order to preserve the collective experience of everyone involved, in any context. It is in private that you make your own rules. Will you tell me to "stay out of pubs" if some Limbo won't stop Banishing me mid-fight, or a Vauban puts bounce pads on terminals? Yes, auto-winning the mission with Simulor spam is in that category.

And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with opinion. Simulor spam objectively trivializes the game for everyone in the squad. You can quibble over the semantics of "cheese" all you like, but that's what it does. And they are consciously choosing to do this, specifically, out of all the ways they could approach the game's objectives. They could do this solo, just as easily, without removing the ability of others to engage in the game's challenges. But they don't, and they don't care how it affects other players. They are absolutely not blameless.

[radastir]

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

7 minutes ago, radastir said:

And let's increase their taxs as well. Let's make them suffer.

[Shockwave-]

13 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Ridiculous. I am not forcing anything on anyone. Obviously. They are still joining public games. I don't abandon the mission, I don't say anything in-game, and I don't passive-aggressively refuse to cooperate. I behave with consideration for my fellow players, because it's the decent thing to do. They, on the other hand, are forcing their playstyle on me, because what they do directly affects my game experience, and I don't have a say in the matter as long as we both get put in the same squads. You've got this completely backwards. Shared public spaces require people to behave with dignity and respect for others, in order to preserve the collective experience of everyone involved, in any context. It is in private that you make your own rules. Will you tell me to "stay out of pubs" if some Limbo won't stop Banishing me mid-fight, or a Vauban puts bounce pads on terminals? Yes, auto-winning the mission with Simulor spam is in that category.

And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with opinion. Simulor spam objectively trivializes the game for everyone in the squad. You can quibble over the semantics of "cheese" all you like, but that's what it does. And they are consciously choosing to do this, specifically, out of all the ways they could approach the game's objectives. They could do this solo, just as easily, without removing the ability of others to engage in the game's challenges. But they don't, and they don't care how it affects other players. They are absolutely not blameless.

Great then you are not forcing a playstyle on them, so they are fine playing in public games. However if you say they shouldn't join them, you are then forcing your play-style on them. You are directly affecting their game experience. In order to not do that they have to be free to join public games.

" Shared public spaces require people to behave with dignity and respect for others "

Yes, and using the simulor does not show disrespect for others. That, right there, is your opinion, that they do not share. You can do this with anything like i said. Speed Novas, Banshees in low level defense, Saryn's in low level defense, Ember etc

" it is in private that you make your own rules. '

EXACTLY... now you are getting it... rules like "you shouldn't use the simulor". That's a rule that should be saved for a private game.

" Will you tell me to "stay out of pubs" if some Limbo won't stop Banishing me mid-fight, or a Vauban puts bounce pads on terminals? Yes, auto-winning the mission with Simulor spam is in that category. "

No, it is not even remotely close to being in that category. Someone efficiently killing things fast is not trolling. It is not doing anything to YOU. It is not using something just to be annoying. It is actually playing the game very very efficiently. Your logic here is that the simulor is TOO good, so people should not use it. Which means that ANY weapon that is TOO good should not be used in public servers. Which logically means that any weapon that ANY player considers TOO good shouldn't be used. Who decides what is TOO good? Is the tonkor? the ignis? Saryn with Hikou prime?

You personally are deciding what things should and should not be used by other players. Last I checked that was DE's job, not yours. Using Bounce pads on terminals to prevent other players from using them is not what DE had in mind for the use of the power, but killing enemies with the simulor is EXACTLY what they had in mind, it is why the weapon is released. Players using a legal weapon, in the manner it was intended to be used, against the enemies (and not other players) is not "rude".

" And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with opinion. Simulor spam objectively trivializes the game for everyone in the squad. "

This is OPINION. The opinion is that trivializing the game in that context is BAD. You are deeming it bad. That player might want to get things over and done with easy and quick. That is what THEY consider a good match. Your opinion is that this is bad. They don't share that opinion. Again, do you think that any weapon i decide "trivializes" the game too much is off limits for you to use in pubs? That's now how public games work.

[DreamsmithJane]

1 hour ago, Shockwave- said:

Great then you are not forcing a playstyle on them, so they are fine playing in public games. However if you say they shouldn't join them, you are then forcing your play-style on them. You are directly affecting their game experience. In order to not do that they have to be free to join public games.

They are free to do so. I'm not stopping them. I'm just saying they shouldn't do that in a public game. And I'm not even saying it in-game. If they don't come here, they'll never see me say it. It doesn't affect their game experience at all.

Anyway, you're attributing a lot of claims and attitudes to me that I have never expressed, and I'm not okay with this. I'm not here to serve as a proxy for your grievances with an imagined viewpoint. Take your straw-men elsewhere. I do not want people to stop using Synoid Simulor. I want Synoid Simulor to stop making the game's core mechanics irrelevant.

Because it does, and that is trivializing the game. That's a fact, not an opinion. If you want to call the idea that trivializing the game is bad an opinion, then it's one that a majority of players share. It's one that a majority of gamers share, regardless of what they play, which is why there's a broad distaste for "cheese" and exploits. With that in mind, "Synoid Simulor shouldn't be mindlessly spammed all over every map" isn't a private rule, but a fairly common belief. Just look at the number of threads about it. It is a widely recognized problem.

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

5 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Because it does, and that is trivializing the game. That's a fact, not an opinion. If you want to call the idea that trivializing the game is bad an opinion, then it's one that a majority of players share. It's one that a majority of gamers share, regardless of what they play, which is why there's a broad distaste for "cheese" and exploits. With that in mind, "Synoid Simulor shouldn't be mindlessly spammed all over every map" isn't a private rule, but a fairly common belief. Just look at the number of threads about it. It is a widely recognized problem.

The synoid simulor damage falls off easily even with the appropriate elemental combo for a faction type. A serration/heavy caliber/splitshot with it's elemental combo isn't that crazy in endless missions, I ran it in derelict survival and the vortexs do less damage and reliance on a secondary or melee becomes 2nd best.

[DreamsmithJane]

2 minutes ago, LittleArachnid said:

The synoid simulor damage falls off easily even with the appropriate elemental combo for a faction type. A serration/heavy caliber/splitshot with it's elemental combo isn't that crazy in endless missions, I ran it in derelict survival and the vortexs do less damage and reliance on a secondary or melee becomes 2nd best.

I saw you say this the last time you replied to me. Based on the numbers, I don't buy it. By the way, Split Chamber is generally not recommended, because the bulk of its damage is merge damage, which means you benefit more from fire rate (due to multishot not causing additional merges). The vortex never did much damage, so getting it faster with multishot doesn't help you. Just the spam. And the spam is the problem.

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

31 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

I saw you say this the last time you replied to me. Based on the numbers, I don't buy it. By the way, Split Chamber is generally not recommended, because the bulk of its damage is merge damage, which means you benefit more from fire rate (due to multishot not causing additional merges). The vortex never did much damage, so getting it faster with multishot doesn't help you. Just the spam. And the spam is the problem.

Think what you will of it, I've put a few forma and optimised my simulor for high damage and that's what I've seen from using it.