Jump to content

We need an actual endgame again, and soon.


Recommended Posts

On 11/29/2016 at 5:27 PM, Jackviator said:

We need an actual endgame again, and soon.

Tenno, Warframe is a game that is highly dependent on replayability. There are quest lines and linear stories, but the vast majority of play is mission-focused, and so cannot really have an end. It's like Halo multiplayer, or League of Legends, or pretty much any multiplayer game on the market. It's designed to keep players playing, not to play the campaign mode and discard for another game. There will not be a "Warframe 2" (knock wood), and as long as there isn't then Warframe cannot "end" in the traditional sense, or the IP dies.

If you're looking for a reason to finish playing the game, try the bottom tab in the Main Menu (press Esc on PC).

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Tenno, Warframe is a game that is highly dependent on replayability. There are quest lines and linear stories, but the vast majority of play is mission-focused, and so cannot really have an end. It's like Halo multiplayer, or League of Legends, or pretty much any multiplayer game on the market. It's designed to keep players playing, not to play the campaign mode and discard for another game. There will not be a "Warframe 2" (knock wood), and as long as there isn't then Warframe cannot "end" in the traditional sense, or the IP dies.

If you're looking for a reason to finish playing the game, try the bottom tab in the Main Menu (press Esc on PC).

I think the point is to create something for those on the end of the chain.

If you played everything, have everything...what can you do instead playing the regular missions?

There should be something to do for this or "high levlers" in regular meaning. To keep them playing in game. It is actualy like finishing a game, if you have reached anything.

So how to help them out?

1 example way i had written, one page before this here. Competition/Challenge/ultimative rewards/rewarding. (Like special MODs that can be stacked ect..)

Link to post
Share on other sites

But then you just complete those challenge rewards.

Ultimately, if you get to the point of having literally *everything* in Warframe, the most mature, and probably even DE endorsed solution, is to take 6 months off then come back.

Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, lodoubt said:

But then you just complete those challenge rewards.

Ultimately, if you get to the point of having literally *everything* in Warframe, the most mature, and probably even DE endorsed solution, is to take 6 months off then come back.

Read my example.

Its dynamic/ changing/ rewarding/ challanging/ inclusive clan tasks & rewards to be claimed.

Edited by P0Pz
Link to post
Share on other sites

de wants all content for everyone (well now we have rivens, which does not satisfy the need for endgame)
you won't ever have endgame cuz this would require barriers 

accept it: wf is a game where you don't need skill, intelligence or social skills in order to access all content. and DE does everything to keep it this way.
-> this prohibits all forms of endgame

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/29/2016 at 11:21 PM, Shockwave- said:

Not really. In teh void, if you ran your key in chat for a 60 min survival most people who joined your free key would stay 60 minutes.

In the endless fissure nobody stays. I've done 3 or 4 of them and now and 20 minutes /20 waves people start dropping out. They aren't incetivized to go to 40 minutes or 60. We had definite high level rewards at that level - the prime part they were after - in the void. In endless fissure we don't have that. Nobody runs raidents in endless, so it's only for ducat farming. Unless you have a 4 group of friends all ready to go, you can't really do endless well here, and if you want to the endless fissure you need  is usually not available. as in 80-90% of the time.

My experiences have often been the opposite. Back with Keys, 90% of the time my squad would peace at 20 or 40 minutes because they didn't want to keep playing until the next Rotation C drop, even if it was clear they could handle it. (And besides, it wasn't their Key, why would they care if they left? Nothing lost, right?) However, on my first endless Relic mission, I dropped into a public and stayed for 45 minutes, leaving only when we were tripping over each other. Don't get me wrong, I find a lot of people leaving with the Relic system and it's not perfect, but the Void system wasn't perfect either and I've had good and bad experiences with both. The most noticeable improvement I've seen is that when I'm hunting Prime stuff, Relics have me actually playing the game more. Before the rework, I would spend a whole lot of wasted time standing around in my Orbiter while I tried to get a decent squad together, and usually they'd all just be mooching off me for my key and want to leave at 20 minutes anyway. This trend of "nobody stays" is much, much older than Relics.

And frankly, you are wrong about incentives. Tenno are incentivized to continue into later rounds of endless now, with bonuses to Affinity and resources drops, extra traces and later even free refined Relics. They stack up so nicely that I can get all my farming done for exp, Focus, the planet's resources, Prime parts, Forma, Ducats and usually Endo, all in the same mission. I can't see how this new system isn't better.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

And frankly, you are wrong about incentives. Tenno are incentivized to continue into later rounds of endless now, with bonuses to Affinity and resources drops, extra traces and later even free refined Relics. They stack up so nicely that I can get all my farming done for exp, Focus, the planet's resources, Prime parts, Forma, Ducats and usually Endo, all in the same mission. I can't see how this new system isn't better.

One word: Inconsistency.

If I'm going into a mission for a long time, I'd prefer to be able to choose what faction I'm up against, what type of mission it is, and what type of relic I can run on it.

Sure, the old system restricted you to Corrupted, but at least you had a measure of choice when going into it what experience you would be getting. Now it's randomly generated and sometimes these missions aren't even available at all.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

And frankly, you are wrong about incentives. Tenno are incentivized to continue into later rounds of endless now, with bonuses to Affinity and resources drops, extra traces and later even free refined Relics. They stack up so nicely that I can get all my farming done for exp, Focus, the planet's resources, Prime parts, Forma, Ducats and usually Endo, all in the same mission. I can't see how this new system isn't better.

 

I have to disagree with you there. Fissure defence is THE thing I play most of in WF by far. When the new changes dropped it made a little difference for a short while, and I was regularly passing 30 waves, but it's reverted to normal again: people leave after 15 waves or less. The new incentives are a step in the right direction, absolutely, but are not enough. The time/reward ratio is simply not enough. Like I said before, drop a Riven mod on wave 50 and everyone will stay to wave 50. Simple.

I'd also like to see the enemy chosen at random on these defences. Always having Grineer on Helene or Corpus on Sinei gets old fast.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, P0Pz said:

I think the point is to create something for those on the end of the chain.

If you played everything, have everything...what can you do instead playing the regular missions?

A year ago, the devs answered this question with Sorties. Now the high-level players are done and need a new endgame. Before this, it was the Trial. I read your example, and with the literal room-looting dungeon crawl you suggest, fun as it may be, it would take no more than another year for high-level players to get bored of, and then we're back here again talking about player demands for new "endgame" content.

In a PvE game, updates and new content are the lifeblood of the game, and we will always have a large number of consumers of this content finishing it faster than the creators can make it. It's like binge-watching the new season of your favorite show on Netflix, then getting angry/bored/impatient when you have to wait a year for more, because guess what, it takes many times more time, money and effort to make new content than it does to play it. If a Tenno goes ham and considers themselves done with a new round of content in a couple of days, they shouldn't be getting pissed off when the studio needs a couple of months to give them a new piece of entertainment, especially in a free-to-play where the average player plays $0 for the new content and contributes nothing to the support of the company that is making the game. This is why more content-heavy games charge for expansions, because making new content is expensive.

Furthermore, the devs can't always be adding the new content solely to the top-most end of the game. Since a free-to-play relies on bringing in new players, they need to be able to give new stuff to all levels of play and all calibres of player (serious and casual). imagine learning about this game and its brand-new update to come and try, only to find out that you'll need to play for several months just to get to the content you wanted in the first place, all the while watching new content you can't access either pile up on top. That's what would happen if they added only progressively more end-game content. Since they don't do this, it slows down the additions to the end-game and leaves our more hardcore players with more and more idle time.

The fix? DE needs more money to hire more artists and programmers and create more assets. And if you look at the high price of PA and believe DE is rich enough, consider that in f2p, for every player that actually buys the game, there are dozens who don't.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎29‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 10:53 PM, xRufus7x said:

IDK that I have ever seen a time when there isn't at least one running or at least for a small amount of time and they cycle what, every hour. Play something else for a while or do a raid or sortie. I mean I wouldn't complain if there was always 2 missions per relic type, one endless and one not but it has never really been an issue for me.

They cycle every 90 minutes, and believe it or not most of the time there is no endless* mission available. And even if there is, it's the same ones over and over: Grineer defence on Helene, Grineer defence on Stephano, Corpus defence on Uranus snow (forget the name sorry), etc etc. No variety.

* I personally don't count Interception as no ever wants to go endless on that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

If I'm going into a mission for a long time, I'd prefer to be able to choose what faction I'm up against, what type of mission it is, and what type of relic I can run on it.

Are you somehow not able to do this with Fissures? Can you not read the detailed information on the mission?

12 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

Sure, the old system restricted you to Corrupted, but at least you had a measure of choice when going into it what experience you would be getting. Now it's randomly generated and sometimes these missions aren't even available at all.

You still have choice, just now not all the choices are available all the time. History shows that the majority of the player base is not mature or responsible enough to be given this option. You can go back into the Archives and find tons of threads complaining that Tenno were sick and tired of the grind after playing nothing but T3 Survival for hours at time for many days in a row.

DE understands that players need to be given some variety, and so they made the missions rotate, but allowed you to hunt for the same rewards if you were after something in particular. If your problem is that you only want to fight one faction in one mission type, DE doesn't agree with you and wants you to experience more of the game, or at least one or two other mission types once in a while.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎30‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 2:22 PM, Mudfam said:

Uh, I thought the new endgame was doing the sortie, getting riven mods, farming kuva, rolling them and trying out old weapons with new buffs.

Correction: do the sortie, consistently get useless junk, stare at trade chat for an hour / until headache, buy mod for meta weapons because they only have stats worth buffing in the first place.

Oh well, we always have trials... Right..?

Cheese everything, complete objective, 1% chance of getting 1/20 arcane that isn't usles trash for one cosmetic setup on one frame.

*Sigh* what about focus then?

Get a lens, unlock one "way", laugh at how useless and impractical all the others are...

 

Basically, everything there is to do at "end game" is either completely worthless or potentially locked behind an exasperatingly idiotic RNG wall. There is no actually difficult content to challenge us, and no motivation to do it even if there was. We went from tedious grinding that at least rewarded effort to some kind of lottery system where only the lucky thrive, regardless of anything else.

You win the internet.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe we could have specific missions we can start along the lines of the recent Kuva farming missions. They are there so you know the other 3 players have the same objective as you. So how about when we start our endless mission we get asked how far we want to go and get matched accordingly..."15, 30, 50 or 100 waves" for example. I'd prefer to have to wait 5 minutes for a team that has the same objective as me, than be constantly disappointed when everyone chickens out after 10 or 15 waves.

Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Furthermore, the devs can't always be adding the new content solely to the top-most end of the game. Since a free-to-play relies on bringing in new players, they need to be able to give new stuff to all levels of play and all calibres of player (serious and casual). imagine learning about this game and its brand-new update to come and try, only to find out that you'll need to play for several months just to get to the content you wanted in the first place, all the while watching new content you can't access either pile up on top. That's what would happen if they added only progressively more end-game content. Since they don't do this, it slows down the additions to the end-game and leaves our more hardcore players with more and more idle time.

The thing is, although giving all players access to one thing at once sounds good, it also has some flaws to it. For me, Warframe is sorta set up as an RPG game. You do missions, kill stuff, get better equipment and gear, maybe level up a bit, and repeat. In some of the really good F2P RPG games that I've played, they were able to keep me entertained in the early levels, and the updates that veterans got only made me want to progress even further so that I can achieve that content. It's pretty much the carrot-on-a-stick analogy.

Before, the Sorties was available to all players who were MR 4 or above. Now, it's locked behind a Quest that's locked behind Junction that's only obtainable after significant progress through the Star Chart. Newer players could have just been taxied to popular farming nodes, brought on Void runs, and quickly obtain and level their gear to reach MR 4 in a quick pace. But, there's no satisfaction in that method. And yet, the game is so beginner-unfriendly that outside help is needed before the new players leave the game and not try out the rest of the content the game has to offer. So, to me, it's either have new players burn their butts off trying to get to the meat of the game, or to get carried through it and not have the satisfaction that comes with achievement.

There are people who praise some MMORPG games, like FFIV, for their endgame content. Warframe, though, has no real satisfying endgame content, in my perspective. The most we have are Raids and Sorties, and yet they do not satisfy the veterans enough. The issue here is the quality of endgame content that DE releases. In Raids, many teams would just stack on CC frames and bring Trinity so that enemies won't be able to do anything. In other cases, some players may just bring all killing frames and a Trinity to kill enemies before they do everything. There just isn't that great satisfaction you get from a normal team composition, with a tank, a dmg dealer, and a healer, where everyone depends on each other for success. In Warframe, it's the usual "stack this type of frame and bring a Trinity". In Sorties, it is more or less the same content with additional modifiers for challenge. Whether or not it's enough for veterans depends on their tastes. I myself enjoy doing it, but I don't see it as a significant part of Warframe's endgame due to the lack of content it provides for me.

What DE should do, in my opinion, is add enough content for newer players to enjoy, and then spread out their content more consistently, rather than overwhelming the player with a ton of stuff to do. Have the new players earn the content, and make it satisfying to do. Newer players should also be introduced to the game's mechanics better. DE should also reconsider how they make endgame content. One of my biggest gripes with the Law of Retribution Raid is the puzzle room. If you make one bad move, then the entire team gets punished and you have to restart it all over again. What I like about Kela De Thaym's puzzle is that even if you get downed, you and your team are not forced to redo the puzzle from the start; you can just resume the puzzle after getting picked up by your teammates. The content should be fun to do and be rewarding, not tedious and cheese-able (like how CC is so overpowered in this game and that players can just cheese the game with it).

Grind helps lengthen content, but it's useless if that content is not fun in the first place. DE must find a balance between grind and fun to make a great game.

TL;DR: Warframe does not do much good for new or old players. New players have a difficult time playing the game without any outside help, and that help may trivialize their overall experience by removing the satisfaction of achievement. Old players do not have sustainable endgame content. The endgame content that they do have are tedious and do not reward skilled gameplay or complex team composition.

Edited by Yazeth
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

A year ago, the devs answered this question with Sorties. Now the high-level players are done and need a new endgame. Before this, ...

I agree to everything. Well written ♡

Edited by P0Pz
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Yazeth said:

There just isn't that great satisfaction you get from a normal team composition, with a tank, a dmg dealer, and a healer, where everyone depends on each other for success. In Warframe, it's the usual "stack this type of frame and bring a Trinity". In Sorties, it is more or less the same content with additional modifiers for challenge. 

...

Oh god... Yeees...

I am total with you. 

It is cool to solo, to do this and that... fun running arround freez/hold/..CC everything to have that RAMBO feeling...

but there is no real basic for endgame when noone has a defined role.

 

Tank: Mega Health/Mega armor Mega Damage reducing. Low/Medium damage. He is the frontman, he takes all dmg for the team. Damage reducing/reflecting skills. Healing skill moderate but Energycost high. Can hold/generate AGRO/Hate pool in a Aoe or vs a single target, which forces the target(s) only to focus atacks agains him. Tanks Kills slow. Bc of slow KS he need to tank with his hp/armore.

Healer: Opposite of a tank. Low health/armor. Does have only 1/2 range cc/dd skill. Most over skills to heal and buff team/tank. Slow KS. Moderate damage. She is the one focusing to heal the Tank and hold him alive. Healing create agro too. So the healer needs to watchout her tank is generating more agro.

2nd Healer: he does DD/CC and most over supports the main healer to "shield" healing some friendly over time (agro sharing). Does have tean buff/support skills.

DD (Damage Dealer): Moderate/low health. Does do fast high damage. All skills focus to inflict more damage or reducing target(s) defends.

Mage: (Abbility power): low health. The tricky man. CC / DD and HIGH Burst (AOE) damage.

Summoner: Normal health/Armor. He is the "pets" supporter. Can dual summon 2 pets at the same time. Generats a supportfield that increases all pets stats (health/ damage/ crit rate/ atack speed/ ...). He lets his pets fight infront of him. Supporting them with heals/damage resists/evade buffs or even vampire (hp leaching) with each hit.

------

Alone the agro pool generating AND sharing; from Tanks and Healers would produce a kinda symbiosis.

And a kind of "i have to defend MY Healer/Team" ~ "i won't let you die my tank"

This would effort skills to time skills to hold all alive in a chain, as long the tank hold them all...1 wrong move could force a chain reaction if all not react fast enough... healer is the main key to deff from all damage source.

 

Thanks for the backflash to a game i played constant over 13 years ♡


 
Edited by P0Pz
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

 

And frankly, you are wrong about incentives. Tenno are incentivized to continue into later rounds of endless now, with bonuses to Affinity and resources drops, extra traces and later even free refined Relics. They stack up so nicely that I can get all my farming done for exp, Focus, the planet's resources, Prime parts, Forma, Ducats and usually Endo, all in the same mission. I can't see how this new system isn't better.

 

Actually no, they aren't. 60 minutes in a survival already leveled a frame or weapon to 30 or got you your 100K focus. The bonus affinity doesn't help at all in incentivizing longer runs. You will run out of trace cap if you have a booster and an smeeta, and you can't upgrade relics mid stream. The entire process is so clunky and unrewarding compared to jsut doing multiple 5 wave/ 5 minute runs.

The planets resources aren't usually needed. and if they are you have to get super lucky to be ready to do an endless when it shows up on the planet you need. Usually there is no endless present, never mind for the era you want and the planet you want. Especially if you have a group of friends to play with. You can't ever find a decent endless to do.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎29‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 8:46 PM, xRufus7x said:

Endless relic runs are more rewarding than void endless runs were, offering traces, multipliers to credits and resources and already refined relics at certain milestones that actually increase the longer you stay all while getting shots at additional relics through the standard rotation. This makes them far more rewarding than the traditional AABC that we had in the void.

 

So if your old "end game" was the void you should be far happier with the new "Endless Fissure" endgame which brings more variety, better rewards and actually scales rewards the longer you stay.

Happier? Why?

After 3 hours farming traces I used 16 radiant (meso and neo) and got 12 formas and one rare!

How good relics are? Where are the BETTER REWARDS? I dont see them!

I expended 4 hours playing to get garbage drops!

The rare parts I wanted  never show up, so I preffer the old system of Keys AABC! Yeah, bring it back DE! 

The Void its much better than these repetitive, common and boring locations  

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...