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Either give snipers a non-scoped aiming mode, or revert the hipfire accuracy nerf


AdunSaveMe
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-You need to zoom in to hit an enemy because hipfire accuracy is awful.
-You can't use zoom at close- to medium-range (which makes up, oh, I don't know, most of the tilesets in the game) because trying to zoom in at an enemy that isn't far away is just clunky and not fun in the slightest. You want to count that guy's eyelashes? Oh, whoops, he moved slightly to the side! Also you're dead.
-You can't switch to your secondary as a backup in a tight spot because weapons swapping speed doesn't allow it, and even if it did you'd be using it more than you use your sniper, making snipers just as useless.
-You can't hipfire like you used to because the accuracy is gone and won't hit anything unless it's touching you because anti-skill RNG aim.

Enough with the pseudo-realism. It's not fun. It's not interesting. Snipers are in a worse spot than they were before the buff. I don't care if we have to lose the combo counter from hipfire/unscoped aim as long as snipers are actually USABLE like they used to be.

Add a normal non-scoped aiming mode (no combo counter maybe, accuracy is debatable), like this;
cdede5de54.jpg

And have the alt fire/zoom switch key activate the scope. Boom, problem solved. A small fix that makes a huge difference.

Or revert the hipfire accuracy nerf, because it makes no sense (as no other weapon in the game is gimped without scope/ADS), it's counter-productive (because this is a fast-paced parkour flip-across-the-map shooter) and it feels pointless. Yeah, snipers are meant for sniping. Why does that mean they should be useless at every other range? The majority of tilesets in the game do not allow for dedicated long-range sniping. Other weapons are now better at sniping than snipers purely because you can use them at closer ranges. You've gimped them for no good reason.

Edited by AdunSaveMe
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just like every other Thread, as someone that does use Sniper Rifles (as well as most of the Weapons in the game), i'm going to have to go with git gouda.

people don't like it but that's all i can really say when it's very rare for any Sniper Rifle that isn't Lanka to actually miss a shot when not using the Optic in Gameplay.

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6 minutes ago, taiiat said:

just like every other Thread, as someone that does use Sniper Rifles (as well as most of the Weapons in the game), i'm going to have to go with git gouda.

people don't like it but that's all i can really say when it's very rare for any Sniper Rifle that isn't Lanka to actually miss a shot when not using the Optic in Gameplay.

That's just downright incorrect.
9aa02ec97f.jpgf2fd37ce35.jpg

This is with the vectis. None of these were near the center. Most of them went diagonally to the bottom right.

"git gud cus I don't have a problem with it", that's a stellar one.

3 minutes ago, maj.death said:

Meanwhile I just mouse over an enemy beforehand. Zoom in. Take an optional second to count his nose hairs. Then blow his head away and repeat. Scoping really ain't a problem. But of course I am a special snowflake.

Quickscoping doesn't work either as there's inaccuracy for a short window, so you still have to zoom. At close range. Which is clunky.

Edited by AdunSaveMe
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11 minutes ago, taiiat said:

just like every other Thread, as someone that does use Sniper Rifles (as well as most of the Weapons in the game), i'm going to have to go with git gouda.

people don't like it but that's all i can really say when it's very rare for any Sniper Rifle that isn't Lanka to actually miss a shot when not using the Optic in Gameplay.

I feel as though "git gud" doesn't really apply to when weapons have gigantic spreads that are entirely beyond your control. I mean, sure, the player can spend hours getting used to quickscoping every single crate or fodder unit that they fire at, but that's so tedious. It's also feels, dare I say, less realistic.

I can see why the hipfire accuracy nerfs would be justified in a tactical PVP game, but this is a PVE horde shooter. These crappy accuracy adds nothing to the fun of sniper rifles, and does nothing to improve balance. The way I see it, there is no reason for it to be in this game.

Edited by SortaRandom
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9 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

This is with the vectis. None of these were near the center. Most of them went diagonally to the bottom right.

 

8 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

I feel as though "git gud" doesn't really apply to when weapons have gigantic spreads that are entirely beyond your control.

and yet, when you go to shoot Enemies, you'll find that you can fairly reliably hit Enemies without using the Optic as long as you actually pointed at the Enemy.
the outlier situations that do happen are poo.
just as it is with say, Castanas. where there are outlier results that are ridiculous, but the vast majority are much more reasonable. obviously Sniper Rifles experience much less than Castanas does.

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Just now, taiiat said:

and yet, when you go to shoot Enemies, you'll find that you can fairly reliably hit Enemies without using the Optic as long as you actually pointed at the Enemy.
the outlier situations that do happen are poo.

Maybe you have RNGesus watching over your gameplay at all times, but folks like me have to constantly deal with perfectly-aimed shots completely missing the target because of a crappy roll of the dice. I could noscope enemies with the Lanka and Vectis just fine before the change, but after the rework, these two weapons have become unbearable for me to use.

I'm glad we agree that these situations are poo, but the issue is that these situations are hardly the "outlier" beyond medium range. And even if they are the outlier, I don't understand what the harm would be in reverting the nerf.
What do you see in low hipfire accuracy that we don't?

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sadly snipers are the only intresting mechanic for guns because it forces you to take aim instead of just pulling the trigger to kill everything. The problem with snipers isnt them its the fact the game is still running on the old run and gun mentality without any real fundamental changes to core gameplay.

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11 minutes ago, taiiat said:

 

and yet, when you go to shoot Enemies, you'll find that you can fairly reliably hit Enemies without using the Optic as long as you actually pointed at the Enemy.
the outlier situations that do happen are poo.
just as it is with say, Castanas. where there are outlier results that are ridiculous, but the vast majority are much more reasonable. obviously Sniper Rifles experience much less than Castanas does.

The 'outlier situations' are the ones where you hit the enemy you're aiming at, and the bullet doesn't go off to the side.

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2 minutes ago, Kanlor said:

sadly snipers are the only intresting mechanic for guns because it forces you to take aim instead of just pulling the trigger to kill everything. The problem with snipers isnt them its the fact the game is still running on the old run and gun mentality without any real fundamental changes to core gameplay.

The problem with snipers IS snipers, not anything else. The "run and gun" thing isn't problematic, it's not holding snipers back, snipers are holding snipers back. You have to aim with most guns, from full autos to bows, just because you have to zoom in with snipers doesn't mean everything else is holding them back. The only fundamental change to core gameplay that would make snipers work in their current state would be turning the game into a slow, limited-mobility non-horde-mode shooter. A different game, essentially.

I wish people would stop pretending mechanics like this are a godsend because they cull the casual point & click masses when in reality they're just clunky ill-fitting mechanics that don't require near as much master-race genetics and extreme thinking that some imply they do. It's literally the same as pointing and clicking with any other weapon, except it doesn't reward skill and it's mechanically broken.

Edited by AdunSaveMe
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4 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

but the issue is that these situations are hardly the "outlier" beyond medium range.

What do you see in low hipfire accuracy that we don't?

wait, maybe that's the problem "everybody else in the game except just me" has apparently. i don't hipfire at Enemies on the other side of a room - only at ones that are close, which is... when you'd logically shoot that way?
i'm not 'hipfiring' past like 20-25 meters usually, give or take. because if they're further away then that, i definitely should be actually aiming anyways.

gives reason to use the Optics, and finally prevents Sniper Rifles from being able to directly compete with Shotguns at Close Range.
when Snipetron Vandal was released, if i had a nickel for every time someone expressed that they would use it simply as a Shotgun... and why wouldn't they, there wasn't any reason not to.

 

 

if the problem is "why can't i use my Sniper Rifle as a replacement Shotgun" - then those people are definitely barking up the wrong tree.

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4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

wait, maybe that's the problem "everybody else in the game except just me" has apparently. i don't hipfire at Enemies on the other side of a room - only at ones that are close, which is... when you'd logically shoot that way?

The enemy has to be practically right up against you for hipfire to work. Nobody said anything about "across the room".

Having a reason and being forced are two different things. And snipers NEVER competed with shotguns. You could use them close up, wow, what a competitor. Never mind that shotguns deal a ridiculously high amount of damage at close range compared to snipers, right? Tell you what, you hit a close range bodyshot with a fully modded vectis, then hit a close range bodyshot with a fully modded hek or tigris, and tell me how that competes, along with DPS output, counting magazine size, reload speed and fire rate.

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

if the problem is "why can't i use my Sniper Rifle as a replacement Shotgun" - then those people are definitely barking up the wrong tree.

Nobody said this, either. Is a soma a replacement sniper because you can use it at long range? Is a latron a replacement shotgun because the bullets actually go where you aim at close range? Not in the slightest.

Edited by AdunSaveMe
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6 minutes ago, taiiat said:

wait, maybe that's the problem "everybody else in the game except just me" has apparently. i don't hipfire at Enemies on the other side of a room - only at ones that are close, which is... when you'd logically shoot that way?
i'm not 'hipfiring' past like 20-25 meters usually, give or take. because if they're further away then that, i definitely should be actually aiming anyways.

gives reason to use the Optics, and finally prevents Sniper Rifles from being able to directly compete with Shotguns at Close Range.
when Snipetron Vandal was released, if i had a nickel for every time someone expressed that they would use it simply as a Shotgun... and why wouldn't they, there wasn't any reason not to.

 

 

if the problem is "why can't i use my Sniper Rifle as a replacement Shotgun" - then those people are definitely barking up the wrong tree.

I see what you're saying.
But, my issue with it is that the low accuracy isn't so much "encouraging scoped shots" so much as it is "discouraging hipfire". I totally agree that scoped shots should be encouraged, but discouraging what should be (and once was) a perfectly good way of taking out weaklings is a bit less okay in my book.

Team Fortress 2 handled this pretty well. The Sniper Rifles in that game have perfect accuracy at all times-- but scoped shots have access to rampup-while-zoomed-in and critical (headshot) damage.
I think Warframe should do something similar. Hipfiring should just be a standard shot with perfect accuracy, as it was pre-rework. Scoped shots should have all the bells and whistles that came with the rework-- increased <stat> with zoom levels, combo system, all that fun stuff.

Edited by SortaRandom
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Never really understood why ALL the snipers have poor hipfire accuracy, guns like Grinlok and Syb have good accuracy without the slow fire speed, wonky mechanics, and/or slow reload. It doesn't make sense as a balance since they're single shot without the zoomed in bonuses anyway or even realistically since guns that shoot larger rounds still have good hipfire accuracy.

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Look, this is simple. You want to encourage using a scope? You can already do that. Keep the combo counter and zoom crit increase while scoped. That's literally all you need to make scoping an encouraged option. Then hipfire can be viable without being the best thing to do with the weapon. Astonishing, right? Hipfire or non-scoped fire doesn't have to be completely bloody useless for scopes to be an appealing option.

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58 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

-You can't switch to your secondary as a backup in a tight spot because weapons swapping speed doesn't allow it,

I know you said we'd just use the secondary more but what if they (also, along with actually fixing snipers) granted a major swap speed boost to hostering whenever a sniper is equipped.  Two birds, one stone?

I often have situations where I switch back and forth so it isn't uncommon to use secondary for close combat and switch to sniper in various scenarios.  Though to be honest, snipers are used (by me) mostly when I absolutely have to and/or in defense/md/interceptions, where we are mostly stationary.

I dislike snipers so much I freely traded a snipetron riven for a panthera riven just for laughs.

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THe7ysy.jpg

need i say more?

look, i don't complain about the fact that i can't non-scope ADS with an SVD in BF3, because snipers are meant to hang back and take pot shots at any flankers or high priority targets, so why should you complain about not doing the same in warframe with the vectis? if you want versatility in a sniper, just go with the vulkar/wraith

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10 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

but discouraging what should be (and once was) a perfectly good way of taking out weaklings is a bit less okay in my book.
Scoped shots should have all the bells and whistles that came with the rework-- increased <stat> with zoom levels, combo system, all that fun stuff.

but they should be. unless Players are okay with having like half or more of the Stats of Sniper Rifles being weighted into using the Optic. which Players won't be.

 

- - - - - 

 

people must be able to identify what they're looking at, and what they're looking at, is much less extreme than they suggest.
there are Outliers. and those should be resolved.

bnNDu4N.png

but what you see here, that second 'ring' on Vectis' Aiming Reticule there, which most of the hits landed inside of? that's ~5° from the center point. i didn't write on my Monitor with a Protractor but it's 7° absolute standing on one leg planets aligned tops, and much closer to 5°.

and most of the hits are contained there, with a few basically stacked on top of each other (by chance ofcourse, but still important to identify how many Projectiles are going significantly off center vs not)

 

if all Projectiles stayed within ~5° of the aim point, that's very reasonable. there's just Outliers which do not.
aimed shots firing wildly off center for no particular reason even after aiming for several seconds has been addressed (after much grumbling), just an issue with unaimed Shots in a... similar regard.

1 minute ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

look, i don't complain about the fact that i can't non-scope ADS with an SVD in BF3, because snipers are meant to hang back and take pot shots at any flankers or high priority targets

to be fair, in Battlefield 4 Sniper Rifles were given the option for Canted Iron Sights, so that one could opt for that instead of another Attachment to make them more practical to use at Close Range.
but as an option that would replace other types of Close Range Attachments, or ones that help make Sniping easier. so it didn't come free.

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24 minutes ago, taiiat said:

but what you see here, that second 'ring' on Vectis' Aiming Reticule there, which most of the hits landed inside of? that's ~5° from the center point.

You say that as if it's a small angle.

Let's punch that into a calculator. If hipfire accuracy is up to 5° off, then attacking a target 15m away will have the bullet veering up to 1.3m off-target. This is against targets whose heads are barely half a foot (~0.20m) in radius. That's a huge discrepancy.

 

Granted, most shots would still "focus" near the center if we actually take the Gaussian nature of target-shooting into account (as opposed to being evenly distributed across the effective cone of where bullets can land). But even despite this, the chance of missing the target is still very uncomfortably high.

 

I know the 5° thing was just eyeballing it, though, so setting that aside...

24 minutes ago, taiiat said:

but they should be. unless Players are okay with having like half or more of the Stats of Sniper Rifles being weighted into using the Optic. which Players won't be.

How on earth would "improve hipfire accuracy" push Sniper Rifles toward the path of "hipfire is too weak compared to scoped shots"?
Improving hipfire accuracy would have the opposite effect, mate.

Edited by SortaRandom
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1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

"git gud cus I don't have a problem with it", that's a stellar one.

I personally don't have cancer. Eh, might as well cut all funding to search for a cure for it, amirite lads?

Anyhow yeah +1 to this post, if only because I've personally said both of the things in the title and will continue to do so if it doesn't change.

Firing a sniper without using the scope is like firing a shotgun with a single, solitary pellet and absurd amounts of spread. That's just not ok.

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1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

That's just downright incorrect.
9aa02ec97f.jpgf2fd37ce35.jpg

This is with the vectis. None of these were near the center. Most of them went diagonally to the bottom right.

"git gud cus I don't have a problem with it", that's a stellar one.

Quickscoping doesn't work either as there's inaccuracy for a short window, so you still have to zoom. At close range. Which is clunky.

Quickscoping works, but there is also scope sway when you zoom in. Sometimes as you're zooming in, you get scope sway that makes your shot go way wide. You just don't notice this when quick scoping. Doesn't happen too often, certainly less so than missing while hip-firing.

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2 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

You say that as if it's a small angle.

Let's punch that into a calculator. If hipfire accuracy is up to 5° off, then attacking a target 15m away will have the bullet veering up to 1.3m off-target. This is against targets whose heads are barely half a foot (~0.20m) in radius. That's a huge discrepancy.

realistically, in Warframe, it is. since you expect to always have two Projectiles (or more i guess but Rivens don't count and won't), your expected rate of being able to hit center mass at an Enemy that's fairly close is quite good.

if you're expecting reliable Weakpoint Crits without aiming, uh....
but that would mean there'd be no point in aiming (full potential Damage without using Optic)? just as there mostly isn't one for anything that isn't Vulkar, Lanka, or Rubico.

 

it would all work a lot better if Warframe mostly adopted First Shot Multiplier, Spread Increase Per Shot, Spread decrease over time, Et Cetera from Battlefield, this would all be a lot easier. "but this isn't a PvP Shooter" - these values don't have to be anywhere near as strict. they're tools, and can be used for many tasks. which can include encouraging Bullet Hoses to both spray and not spray, encouraging Precision Weapons to aim and not aim, encouraging Shotguns to get in close and not get in close.... goes on down the line.
because every 'bullet' Weapon in Warframe that isn't a Shotgun can be considered to be quite unreliable with huge discrepancies. because everything is fixed Spread Cones with no encouragement to use Weaponry correctly and almost no deterrant to use it incorrectly or carelessly.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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