Either give snipers a non-scoped aiming mode, or revert the hipfire accuracy nerf

[shut]

9 minutes ago, taiiat said:

realistically, in Warframe, it is. since you expect to always have two Projectiles (or more i guess but Rivens don't count and won't), your expected rate of being able to hit center mass at an Enemy that's fairly close is quite good.

if you're expecting reliable Weakpoint Crits without aiming, uh....
but that would mean there'd be no point in aiming (full potential Damage without using Optic)? just as there mostly isn't one for anything that isn't Vulkar, Lanka, or Rubico.

- When I fire multiple bullets using the most accurate weapons in the game, I expect both bullets to hit their mark.
- "Without aiming"? I hope you mean "without scoping". Quickly pointing at enemies' heads from halfway across rooms most certainly requires a small bit of aim.
- "Full potential damage without using Optic"? Didn't I make it clear in my previous post that scoping would provide benefits that hipfire doesn't have access to? Hell, didn't you make it clear in your previous post that you'd be worried about scoped shots being too strong in comparison?

I'm starting to notice a bit of inconsistency in your posts. Maybe I'm just too tired to make sense of things or something, but I think it's time for me to go to bed.

Edited November 30, 2016 by SortaRandom

[taiiat]

10 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

- When I fire multiple bullets using the most accurate weapons in the game, I expect both bullets to hit their mark.
- "Without aiming"? I hope you mean "without scoping". Quickly pointing at enemies' heads from halfway across rooms most certainly requires a small bit of aim.
- "Full potential damage without using Optic"? Didn't I make it clear in my previous post that scoping would provide benefits that hipfire doesn't have access to? Hell, didn't you make it clear in your previous post that you'd be worried about scoped shots being too strong in comparison?

• within such a Spread value you have a good rate to do so. within the Ranges that it makes sense to be shooting that way in the first place.
• as far as the game is concerned, using the Optic is aiming. just as FineAim is aiming. don't look at me, i didn't come up with this, the game did. it uh, makes sense though. not only about whether you pointed at the Enemy, but also taking the somewhat restricted movement and not quite as much situational awareness as well.
• i was saying that the Damage and Crit Stats of Sniper Rifles would have to be severely reduced, and all of those stats moved into the Optics for unaimed Shotgunning to work without defeating the Optic, but Players wouldn't be okay with that happening.

Edited November 30, 2016 by taiiat

[AdunSaveMe]

1 hour ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

need i say more?

Yes. Much more. Why is it a dead horse if we're giving feedback on something that can be improved?

Should we give up on talking about any flaw in the game just because it's either been around for a while or been talked about a few times? Maybe we should have never talked about vacuum after the first few posts, then we wouldn't have it on all sentinels, would we? SHould we have never given (or stop giving) feedback on parkour, and not gotten parkour 2.0 or any possible improvements afterwards? This "dead horse" meme is an ill-fitting and ridiculous implication. And it's not an argument.

1 hour ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

look, i don't complain about the fact that i can't non-scope ADS with an SVD in BF3, because snipers are meant to hang back and take pot shots at any flankers or high priority targets, so why should you complain about not doing the same in warframe with the vectis? if you want versatility in a sniper, just go with the vulkar/wraith

Because BF3 is a completely different game. It's slower, it's more like a modern shooter simulator, how can you even pretend to compare the two? "Snipers are meant to hang back and take pot shots at any flankers or high priority targets", in a semi-realistic military shooter, with huge open maps and an emphasis on mid- to long-range gunplay against a handful of people at a time maximum, unless you're in a small CQC-friendly map, in which case snipers are useless. That comparison does not work in a horde-mode ninja parkour shooter with small, cramped maps. That's like saying melee should should make you run faster and instakill backstab enemies because that's how it works in CSGO.

Edited November 30, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[Insizer]

This is the reason why the Vulkar Wraith is one of the only snipers that I would even consider using in general gameplay. I've yet to see more than a couple of times in the game where engagement ranges warranted a highly scoped zoom.

[Siekier]

I support this idea ever since the sniper rework. I'd say remove the scope sway as well while we're at it.

 

This whole sniper rifle rework... It feels like a complete miss.

It didn't adress any of the major issues sniper rifles suffered from. Instead it added some further problems (like really, we wanted consistent damage and instead we get a reduction in accuracy).

And there's the standard reaction to our feedback, which is no reaction whatsoever.

 

Anyway, hipfire accuracy nerf should be reverted.

Adding a non-scoped aiming mode (something like in Sniper Elite series I think?) might be nice, though the execution could prove somewhat problematic (basically adding another zoom level to cycle through). So instead of this, I would rather see a reduction in zoom levels. Who even needs a 12x zoom in Warframe when there are very few tiles big enough for it to be (somewhat) useful? 8x should be max, anything higher is just not practical.

[shut]

17 hours ago, taiiat said:

• within such a Spread value you have a good rate to do so. within the Ranges that it makes sense to be shooting that way in the first place.
• as far as the game is concerned, using the Optic is aiming. just as FineAim is aiming. don't look at me, i didn't come up with this, the game did. it uh, makes sense though. not only about whether you pointed at the Enemy, but also taking the somewhat restricted movement and not quite as much situational awareness as well.
• i was saying that the Damage and Crit Stats of Sniper Rifles would have to be severely reduced, and all of those stats moved into the Optics for unaimed Shotgunning to work without defeating the Optic, but Players wouldn't be okay with that happening.

- The thing is, "a good rate" isn't good enough. If a player aims perfectly at his target using the most accurate weapon in the game, there should be a zero chance of missing.

- How does the zooming requirement "make sense"? You could extend the requirement to literally every other primary weapon by that logic. The only thing setting Snipers apart is their long shape making them harder to swing around-- which is a completely moot point for space ninjas who routinely twirl battleaxes like batons.

- No aspect of hipfire would "have to be severely reduced". What makes you think that improved hipfire accuracy would be overpowered?

Edited December 1, 2016 by SortaRandom

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

there should be a zero chance of missing.

You could extend the requirement to literally every other primary weapon by that logic.

What makes you think that improved hipfire accuracy would be overpowered?

in a game with Random Crits and Status, while i bring heavy influence from Battlefield with me, i'm not applying realism very heavily to Warframe.

(actually most if not all Weapons in the game experience reduced Spread when using FineAim)

not Overpowered, but rather that there isn't a whole lot of reason to use the Optics otherwise. as you'd click on dudes and they'd die, whether you used the Optic or not.

[shut]

18 minutes ago, taiiat said:

(actually most if not all Weapons in the game experience reduced Spread when using FineAim)

not Overpowered, but rather that there isn't a whole lot of reason to use the Optics otherwise. as you'd click on dudes and they'd die, whether you used the Optic or not.

- (kinda off-topic) I haven't played much Battlefield. I know that most weapons have harshly decreased accuracy when not zooming, but would I be correct in assuming that sniper rifles have it a lot worse?

- There's a middle ground. As I mentioned before, zooming should give access to bonus stats and combo multipliers and such (ideally with better mechanics than what we have now)-- which allows the player to take out priority targets quickly with scoped shots, while using hipfire to take out weaker targets such as lancers and loot crates.
If hipfire accuracy were improved and the scoped combo counter were altered to make missed shots less punishing, then we'd be pretty darn close to this middle ground.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

- (kinda off-topic) I haven't played much Battlefield. I know that most weapons have harshly decreased accuracy when not zooming, but would I be correct in assuming that sniper rifles have it a lot worse?

- There's a middle ground. As I mentioned before, zooming should give access to bonus stats and combo multipliers and such (ideally with better mechanics than what we have now)-- which allows the player to take out priority targets quickly with scoped shots, while using hipfire to take out weaker targets such as lancers and loot crates.
If hipfire accuracy were improved and the scoped combo counter were altered to make missed shots less punishing, then we'd be pretty darn close to this middle ground.

certainly more than a Weapon intended to be used at Close Range, but it's not so bad. both standing hipfire, Sniper Rifles are about 40% as Accurate as SMG/Assault Rifles.
which means you can't just point and click, but infact if you point at an Enemy, you have a pretty good rate of hitting them within ranges where hipfiring makes any sense at all. it's actually quite similar to what i described earlier, in context of the other Weapons they see in each game, respectively. 
Sniper Rifles do actually gain a reduction in hipfire penalty if the Player is Crouching or Prone however. more Close Range Weapons tend to not or get very little.

 

while most of the Optic bonuses are meh, they were added on top of the existing (well increased at the same time but w/e) stats for Sniper Rifles. which Kill things pretty aptly. so more Damage on top of that can be a troublesome proposition. may be why the Optic bonuses on most are so incredibly minor.
if Sniper Rifles either had notably lower Crit Chance normally, but the Optic gave them a large Crit Chance bonus in some form (can either be a large Percentage bonus, significant flat bonus, actual increase of base stats, Weakpoint only bonus Et Cetera), that could cover ensuring that aiming is always the superior choice, and at the same time make Sniper Rifles less consistent with Critting, since we all know that's an unnecessary weakness of them.

that could work. helps everyone. flat bonus, increasing base stats, or Weakpoint bonus probably the most interesting. flat bonus could make Sniper Rifles not use Crit Chance Mods (which would make people grumble but fite me) and achieve helping make consistent Crits, increasing base stats meaning Crit Chance Mods do a hell of a lot when aiming, Weakpoint bonus would be something like probably a flat bonus to Crit Chance when you hit a Weakpoint.

if things as such were in place somewhere between 1-1.7° without Optic wouldn't be a problem.

[Vance.Stubbs]

23 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

The enemy has to be practically right up against you for hipfire to work. Nobody said anything about "across the room".

Having a reason and being forced are two different things. And snipers NEVER competed with shotguns. You could use them close up, wow, what a competitor. Never mind that shotguns deal a ridiculously high amount of damage at close range compared to snipers, right? Tell you what, you hit a close range bodyshot with a fully modded vectis, then hit a close range bodyshot with a fully modded hek or tigris, and tell me how that competes, along with DPS output, counting magazine size, reload speed and fire rate.

Nobody said this, either. Is a soma a replacement sniper because you can use it at long range? Is a latron a replacement shotgun because the bullets actually go where you aim at close range? Not in the slightest.

Why are you even replying to this guy? It makes me cringe because of that amount ignorance his posts contan, in every single thread.

[shut]

29 minutes ago, taiiat said:

while most of the Optic bonuses are meh, they were added on top of the existing (well increased at the same time but w/e) stats for Sniper Rifles. which Kill things pretty aptly. so more Damage on top of that can be a troublesome proposition. may be why the Optic bonuses on most are so incredibly minor.
if Sniper Rifles either had notably lower Crit Chance normally, but the Optic gave them a large Crit Chance bonus in some form (can either be a large Percentage bonus, significant flat bonus, actual increase of base stats, Weakpoint only bonus Et Cetera), that could cover ensuring that aiming is always the superior choice, and at the same time make Sniper Rifles less consistent with Critting, since we all know that's an unnecessary weakness of them.

that could work. helps everyone. flat bonus, increasing base stats, or Weakpoint bonus probably the most interesting. flat bonus could make Sniper Rifles not use Crit Chance Mods (which would make people grumble but fite me) and achieve helping make consistent Crits, increasing base stats meaning Crit Chance Mods do a hell of a lot when aiming, Weakpoint bonus would be something like probably a flat bonus to Crit Chance when you hit a Weakpoint.

if things as such were in place somewhere between 1-1.7° without Optic wouldn't be a problem.

That's fair enough, I suppose. As long as hipfiring is powerful and accurate enough to reliably oneshot fodder units at decently high levels, I'd welcome such changes with open arms.

That's a really big "as long as hipfiring is powerful and accurate enough to reliably oneshot fodder units", though. To me, the pre-rework hipfire shots were perfectly enjoyable; weakening them to the point of being unable to do their job properly (i.e. taking out weaker targets in a convenient manner) would be a massive no-no.

Edited December 1, 2016 by SortaRandom

[AdunSaveMe]

12 minutes ago, Vance.Stubbs said:

Why are you even replying to this guy? It makes me cringe because of that amount ignorance his posts contan, in every single thread.

Because I'm not against discussion

[Jackviator]

20 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Because I'm not against discussion

A rational person on the internet willing to listen to points and perspectives other than their own? Just... wait a moment. Need to do something real quick.

*turns on the telly + flips the channel to the news*

Hmm... no news on pigs flying, nor on Hell freezing over. Huh. Could have sworn... eh, never mind.

[DrBorris]

To me, it comes down to there not being a weapon in the game that acts as an accurate hip fire (or even ADS) cannon. Yes... this is a class of weapons. I would love to have a slow fire rate gun that deals insane damage, but the only way to get that outside of snipers is charging weapons. And sure, I love my bows and Opticor, but what if I want to, ya know, shoot with bullets?

Seriously, Warframe has pretty much every type of weapon, besides what seems to me to be a pretty major class of weapons. I like having to be methodical with my shots, aiming for the head and lining up punch-through, but unless I want to use something that charges or has a scope I am SoL.

Maybe if DE released what basically came down to a scope-less Rubico, I would be happy, but why do that when just allowing us to use Rubico without a scope would be a much cleaner option? That would just be awkward overlap if there are two weapons that perform very similarly, but one has a scope and another doesn't.

[AdunSaveMe]

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

That's fair enough, I suppose. As long as hipfiring is powerful and accurate enough to reliably oneshot fodder units at decently high levels, I'd welcome such changes with open arms.

That's a really big "as long as hipfiring is powerful and accurate enough to reliably oneshot fodder units", though. To me, the pre-rework hipfire shots were perfectly enjoyable; weakening them to the point of being unable to do their job properly (i.e. taking out weaker targets in a convenient manner) would be a massive no-no.

There doesn't need to be any fancy mechanic, no change of stats, no bells and whistles. Literally all they need is for hipfire to be as accurate as it was before the rework. That's it. Nothing else. That's the only thing it needs. It doesn't make them overpowered, or make scopes useless, you don't need any other change whatsoever. Fix hipfire and you fix sniper usability as a whole, aside from the obvious arguments about innate punchthrough. There is absolutely no downside, from a point of usability, viability or balance, to making hipfire as accurate as it was.

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

but infact if you point at an Enemy, you have a pretty good rate of hitting them within ranges where hipfiring makes any sense at all.

Not only is this a hugely inaccurate (har) claim, as bullets can (and often do) come out of the gun at least TWO reticles' width to the side, it's also silly. "It's okay because sometimes the bullets go where you're aiming"? That's what it seems like you're saying. Every single gun in the game has its shots go where you're aiming, even if those guns are being used outside of their intended ranges. Some are a bit inaccurate, sure, but none of them go sideways, none of them are downright unusable at anything except extreme ranges (and even then they're still usable) aside from maybe launchers, except sniper rifles apparently have to be the exception because reasons.

Why are you so against making hipfire accurate again? Should we make shotguns useless past ten feet again and remove the minimum % damage because they're meant to be close-range weapons? Should we make carbines like the latron hugely inaccurate at long range and close range because they're designed as a mid-range weapon? No, because that doesn't make any sense, it's pointless, it doesn't contribute to balance in a positive way and it makes them unwieldy and unfun to use.

The only reason for nuking hipfire accuracy with snipers is a meaningless need for pseudo-realism and a misguided attempt to make scopes appealing. The former is a ridiculous design  philosophy and the latter doesn't even work and has better alternatives.

Edited December 1, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[Vance.Stubbs]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Because I'm not against discussion

Can't really call "git gud" statements and putting words in someone else's mouth with "I know better" attitude from that guy a discussion, but that's alright. Anyway, I agree with all of your points.

[taiiat]

3 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

bullets can (and often do) come out of the gun at least TWO reticles' width to the side, it's also silly. "It's okay because sometimes the bullets go where you're aiming"? That's what it seems like you're saying. Every single gun in the game has its shots go where you're aiming

Why are you so against making hipfire accurate again?
Should we make shotguns useless past ten feet again because they're meant to be close-range weapons? Should we make carbines like the latron hugely inaccurate at long range and close range because they're designed as a mid-range weapon?

The only reason for nuking hipfire accuracy with snipers is a meaningless need for pseudo-realism and a misguided attempt to make scopes appealing.

~5° is actually on par with most Weapons that 'just shoot'. outliers that don't fit with that is poo and it should be a consistent Cone, like other Weapons are.
so then it would be like the supposed every single other gun in the game (there are some that don't work right in their own ways too though).
so rather the idea being that "it's okay because the bullets do go where you're pointing".

because it exists this way for a reason, it's just quite extreme.
sure, because they're Overpowered enough to the point that even at Range they out DPS most Weapon Archetypes, which means something is wrong. yes, some DMR's should have a bit more Spread. Latron Wraith in particular should actually be a relevant amount less Accurate than Latron Prime so that it isn't just Powercreep over Latron Prime.

it doesn't even really have much of anything to do with realism - if click A does way more Damage than click B, what about click A keeps it from usurping click B at what click B is supposed to do? the only requirement for both of them is going to tend to be 'point at the dude'. same requirement therefore must be same result(which would then be equal exchange in Damage per Shot and Rate of Fire, Et Cetera), yet somehow it is a different one.
we have far, far more than enough complete obsolescence of all kinds of Equipment, even Equipment that already Powercreeped some other things. Weapons defeating the existence of others.... "makes no sense, makes many Equipment choices pointless, doesn't contribute to balance but instead prevents it...".

- - - - - 

yeah, people in Warframe expect everything to be another zero on the end to 'balance' things, but that doesn't work and anyone talking about balance should know that.
Sniper Rifles already deal plenty of Damage per Shot, and between Combo and Optic bonuses, the only encouragement you have is more Damage on top of that, which is nice vs Lv200 Enemies but in balance terms means very little because like people say to me all the time to try and justify strange nonsensical Loadouts as to why Precision Weapons are a waste of time "if you Overkill your Enemy you've wasted your time, and Overkilling them harder doesn't make your gun better".

~5° of consistent unaimed Spread makes for pretty easy Weakpoint shots within ~20 Meters, and acceptable body shots within ~30-40 Meters (35 probably more practical than 40).
which is apparently no bueno srangely. but if Optics give you actual reason to use them, which means helping to reduce some of their weaknesses, then you can get away with much more if you increase the Weakness, but have the Optic compensate for that + a bit more.

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

To me, it comes down to there not being a weapon in the game that acts as an accurate hip fire (or even ADS) cannon. Yes... this is a class of weapons. I would love to have a slow fire rate gun that deals insane damage, but the only way to get that outside of snipers is charging weapons. And sure, I love my bows and Opticor, but what if I want to, ya know, shoot with bullets?

Sybaris Series? Hek Series? Zarr (lol literally a cannon huehue)? that ridiculously Overpowered thing Lex Prime?
DMR's also rather fit that bill.

[DreamsmithJane]

I like the idea of non-scope aiming added to the rotation of zoom levels.

On the other hand, what I really want is literal hip-firing for secondaries. That is, drawing the weapon from a hip holster and firing it immediately without raising it for careful aim, which is what "firing from the hip" actually means. Basically, I want a quick-fire button that lets us use secondary weapons without having to deal with agonizingly long holster times to fully switch weapons. That way, I can keep a Vaykor Marelok on hand, and actually use both it and my primary in the same mission (or the same fight), the way I do with gunblades now.

[----Fenrir----]

On 30.11.2016 at 6:28 AM, AdunSaveMe said:

Quickscoping doesn't work either as there's inaccuracy for a short window, so you still have to zoom. At close range. Which is clunky.

It's not just clunky. Having to use the scope at close range has basically the same effect as playing with ultra low FOV. And for a lot of people that causes motion sickness.

 

Edit: Also I really can not understand how people can defend the way snipers currently work in this game. Because I never see anyone using those outside of sniper-only sorties. DE must have usage statistics and I would be surprised if snipers make up more than 1% of primary usage.

Edited December 3, 2016 by ----Fenrir----

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Just give snipers iron sights.

[AdunSaveMe]

On 04/12/2016 at 6:58 AM, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Just give snipers iron sights.

Or fix hipfire, because hipfire is part of Warframe's core gameplay and ADS is a minority action.

[Insizer]

On 12/7/2016 at 0:08 AM, AdunSaveMe said:

Or fix hipfire, because hipfire is part of Warframe's core gameplay and ADS is a minority action.

That's the first I've heard that. I rarely hipfire, even with shotguns.

Iron sights would make snipers a whole heck of a lot better.

[TaylorsContraction]

Just thought I'd give an example of a tile-set where sniping works just fine. This was a sortie we had not long ago,

I realize that's just one example but there are many tiles where there are good vantage spots. We have a lot of freedom of movement in warframe so it's not hard to find them. Many grineer tiles have vantage points and so do many corpus. Not so much infested though.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

On 12/13/2016 at 10:42 AM, TaylorsContraction said:

I realize that's just one example but there are many tiles where there are good vantage spots. We have a lot of freedom of movement in warframe so it's not hard to find them. Many grineer tiles have vantage points and so do many corpus. Not so much infested though.

"Many" tiles, while not necessitating, heavily implies that at least a large fraction of tiles is decent or excellent for snipers.  Let's just break this down.

There are maybe 3 Corpus tiles (the really long hangar space and the two open snow spaces with the mini-chasms and bridges as long as the long frozen-river gorge, but really one of those snow spaces is pretty obstructed from sniper fire to most of the choke points) where one is "okay" and two are "good" for sniper rifles.  Apart from that, There are no good sniper corpus tiles apart from "hijack" missions.

For Grineer tiles, there are again a handful of tiles that are okay or good for snipers, such as the "amphitheater" type room with the floor descending in tiers towards the center, and the two rooms you've shown, but really none other than that except for the "hijack" missions, for obvious reasons.  There are also a handful of Earth tiles that are "okay" for snipers, even though being very uneven/cluttered often leaves very few usable lines of sight.

Infested have...... well......... yeah no.  Literally everything is way too obstructed or constrictive for snipers to be useful at all on infested tile sets.

So you have, what, Hijack missions and maybe a handful of tiles out of thousands that are okay or good for snipers?  Yeaaahhhh.... I guess it's still a lot better than when the old-school orokin void tower tiles was the largest and most open tile set, since we have things like the earth tiles and the corpus snow planet tiles, but it's still pretty horrifically bad for snipers over what, (total guess here, but it's very high if we're being honest) 93-96% of tiles in the game?

 

No one sane would agree with the spirit of "many tiles" where there are good vantage spots.  There are lots, but not with good vantage spots for snipers.  Of those there are something like 10 (to be generous) and the hijack tiles out of hundreds and hundreds of tiles in the game.

[Insizer]

I'm reading all of this and all I'm thinking is: I don't need a bloody scope to snipe targets across very long distances (>=50m), I do it with my Lex fairly often, plus I rarely hipfire to begin with (especially single shot non-shotgun guns). All I want is some bloody ironsights or a 1.5-2x scope setting on all snipers, or, at the very least, the Vulkar and Snipetron series' 2.5x scope setting. At least that zoom setting is functional on close-ish range targets.

On 1/3/2017 at 7:38 AM, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

-snip-

Plus, all of those maps do not necessitate snipers. A gun with good accuracy can easily tackle those ranges if you zoom in (no zoom mod needed). On multiple occasions, I've sniped across that snowy gorge map you mentioned, using nothing but a Lex. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Insizer
forgot one bit.