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《 Sorties , RNG And The Need For A Token System 》


(PSN)Mofojokers
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last 2 weeks of sorties have been nothing but endo for me and my friends, with a random potato thrown in... when the rivens first came out we were getting them consistently, but then once the endo chance got "reduced" it's been nothing but. honestly we don't even feel like playing the sorties any more since we get no satisfaction from doing difficult mission for minuscule reward that we can can get easily from low level survivals and excavations.

i understand that maybe they don't want us to get them so quickly due to they server resources, but from i can tell, rivens are the only reason anyone is doing sorties now since weapons no longer drop from them nor the nezha parts and even then they were one and done. 

i would like to feel a sense of accomplishment for doing these frustrating missions, rather than disappointment. it's like mowing a half acre lawn and getting paid 5 bucks for it

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On 1/12/2016 at 2:21 PM, (PS4)Mofojokers said:

 

☆  Example 

    Total - 100 tokens per day

 

☆ Vendor Location

We actually have room on our liset for a console or just chuck it on the relay. But this area could use it or maybe its my ocd of 2 right and 1 left. 😂

 

☆ Vendor List Setup

With the lack of RNG , increase prices (on some) and change what you can get.

- 》2000 Endo 50 tokens / 4000 Endo 100 tokens?.

- 》Focus Lens 50 tokens?.

- 》3 Nitain  75 tokens?.

- 》Forma 100 tokens?.

- 》Riven Mod - Rifle 150 tokens?.

- 》Riven Secondaries 150 tokens?.

- 》Riven Melee 150 tokens?.

- 》Riven Shotgun 150 tokens?.

- 》Greater Focus Lens 250 tokens?.

- 》 Exlius 275 tokens?.

- 》 Reactor 300 tokens?.

- 》Catalyst 300 tokens?.

- 》Legendary Core ???, possibly kept as a ultra rare drop from sortie 3 - [Bonus].

 

☆  Possible Future?

- 》Arcanes  Common 100 tokens , Uncommon 175 tokens , Rare 300 tokens?.

 

100 tokens for day -> OK

2000 endo -> 100 tokens

4000 endo -> 200 tokens

Focus lens (normal) -> 25 tokens

Focus lens (greater) -> 75 tokens

3 nitain -> 50 tokens

Forma -> 50 tokens

Riven mods -> 200 tokens

Reactor and Catalyst -> 300/400 tokens

Legendary core -> no sell

 

Possible future? 

Give up with that absurd idea of moving arcanes to sorties, they are an exclusive reward from raids and their only purpose, and so MUST be. Learn to do raids instead. 

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4 minutes ago, Cloud said:

Focus lens (normal) -> 25 tokens

Focus lens (greater) -> 75 tokens

Forma -> 50 tokens

These numbers aren't high enough, it would be shooting in their own feet if they did this.

5 minutes ago, Cloud said:

Give up with that absurd idea of moving arcanes to sorties, they are an exclusive reward from raids and their only purpose, and so MUST be. Learn to do raids instead. 

We know how to do raid... And you don't get the point.

Raid > 1 random arcane per raid per day (up to 3 random arcanes per day)

Sortie would be more something like "after several days you get ONE arcane you want" and obviously uncommon & rare arcane take even more tokens.

Raids would grant more arcane than sortie but they would be random while sortie only reward one every few days but you get the one you want, which is good to complete a set.

These 2 ways of obtaining arcanes complete each others without making the other one useless.

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4 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

These numbers aren't high enough, it would be shooting in their own feet if they did this.

the problem is that forma, lens and nitain should not even be in sortie reward tables. I know that those value would hurt their economy but that is what they are worth in this moment, considering 100 tokens per day.

6 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

Raid > 1 random arcane per raid per day (up to 3 random arcanes per day)

Sortie would be more something like "after several days you get ONE arcane you want" and obviously uncommon & rare arcane take even more tokens.

Raids would grant more arcane than sortie but they would be random while sortie only reward one every few days but you get the one you want, which is good to complete a set.

These 2 ways of obtaining arcanes complete each others without making the other one useless.

What you say should be a raid token system. So when you do raids, you get tokens too. Sorties has nothing to do with raids and their rewards, and even if you must wait a bit to claim your reward with your sistems, you could still aim at the rarest arcanes who certain people spend months to get.

A token systems for raids could be absolute good but that must be a different tokens market from sorties. Sorties are a piece of cake, and can be completed under 10 mins, raids require organization, people with experience and precise builds and more time.  

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19 minutes ago, Cloud said:

Focus lens (greater) -> 75 tokens

Reactor and Catalyst -> 300/400 tokens

That makes no sense whatsoever, a greater lens costs 40p in the market, a built reactor/catalyst (sortie reward is just a BP) costs only 20p. 

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6 minutes ago, Cloud said:

the problem is that forma, lens and nitain should not even be in sortie reward tables. I know that those value would hurt their economy but that is what they are worth in this moment, considering 100 tokens per day.

as I said countless times already, that's the point of a token system : give us a huge amount of things obtainable from tokens and players will just decide to pick whatever they want.

if 100 tokens is the sortie reward, at least 200 should be the amount for a lens, probably 400 for a greater one and a fully crafted forma is at least worth 200.

8 minutes ago, Cloud said:

you could still aim at the rarest arcanes who certain people spend months to get.

well now they can spend as much time as you and get it from sortie OR use raid to try and randomly obtain it.

9 minutes ago, Cloud said:

A token systems for raids could be absolute good

I know that but that's another fight for another day... It's already close to impossible to add any feature to warframe since we aren't DE.

Right now I think sortie needs this way more because it's more accessible to the public and more people run sortie than raid.

(but raids really need to change aswell...)

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1 minute ago, Snib said:

That makes no sense whatsoever, a greater lens costs 40p in the market, a built reactor/catalyst (sortie reward is just a BP) costs only 20p. 

this make no sense because the market prices make no sense. Lens are something you use on a great variety of weapons and frames to get as much focus possible, and you must also change them to get the affinity for the others schools. So the demand and use is very high , and the price should be low.

Instead reactor and catalyst give HUGE bonus, must be used only 1 time and for most weapons remove also the need of formas.

As always the balancing is not the strong point of the game. 

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10 minutes ago, Cloud said:

this make no sense because the market prices make no sense. Lens are something you use on a great variety of weapons and frames to get as much focus possible, and you must also change them to get the affinity for the others schools. So the demand and use is very high , and the price should be low.

Instead reactor and catalyst give HUGE bonus, must be used only 1 time and for most weapons remove also the need of formas.

Nope. You would only put a lens or a potato on a frame/weapon you actually use, at which point you need the same amount of them. If you even switch them out (people do that?) then you've got even less need for catalysts because apparently you're using less than 5 weapons. 

Besides, it's their business and for them to decide. Considering they were one of the top 24 gross earning games on Steam in 2016 and they are not even Steam exclusive they clearly must be doing something right.

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1 minute ago, Snib said:

they clearly must be doing something right.

that's called prime access / prime vault and accessories.

People tend to think DE will go bankrupt if they don't release content & feature all the time but as long as they keep making prime frames, cosmetics, and doing this scam prime vault thing, everything is fine...

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6 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

that's called prime access / prime vault and accessories.

I'm reasonably certain that you cannot buy prime access via Steam, at least I've never seen it there.

Tennogen is the Steam-exclusive part, it'll be a major factor.

Edited by Snib
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2 minutes ago, Snib said:

I'm reasonably certain that you cannot buy prime access via Steam, at least I've never seen it there.

I was more talking about the general money gain of warframe and not exclusively steam, but for the steam part, well you use the steam wallet to pay for plats and there are packs on the warframe steam page.

And you know there aren't that many games with ingame currency on steam if you remove TF2/dota2/cs:go, these kind of game make a lot of money simply because of the ingame currency that you can buy with the steam wallet.

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Those Steam stats I mentioned weren't about in-game currency, they were about total gross revenue across the entire Steam store. Anyway, we're getting side-tracked a lot here.

tl;dr: Tokens are a good idea, but let DE decide their own "pricing".

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1 hour ago, Snib said:

I'm reasonably certain that you cannot buy prime access via Steam, at least I've never seen it there.

Tennogen is the Steam-exclusive part, it'll be a major factor.

You can get Prime Access through Steam, but it's not really anything to do with Steam directly.

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Everyone will have different opinions. Some struggle to do sorties and some clear it with ease. Some don't feel rewarded when spending 30-60 minutes every day getting nothing useful to them.

Market prices are really strange but it's DE pricing something i doubt will change.

RNG is never bad unless tied to something that has a time lock to it.

My pricing on the front page is just for show. If DE went with tokens they will use their own knowledge to make pricing that they are ok with.

Hope this clears things up. 😊

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Mofojokers said:

Everyone will have different opinions. Some struggle to do sorties and some clear it with ease. Some don't feel rewarded when spending 30-60 minutes every day getting nothing useful to them.

Market prices are really strange but it's DE pricing something i doubt will change.

RNG is never bad unless tied to something that has a time lock to it.

My pricing on the front page is just for show. If DE went with tokens they will use their own knowledge to make pricing that they are ok with.

Hope this clears things up. 😊

Agree with most of this, except, "RNG is never bad unless tied to something that has a time lock to it."

RNG can be really bad, regardless of time locks, based on how it works. While a certain amount of it is fun, especially within the context of targeted farming (like this game and Borderlands, Torchlight 2, and more), there are kinds of RNG that are definitively not fun. I actually point towards the relic system as something with a strong concept, but less than ideal implementation.

Specifically, I think you should be able to push the % chance to get the rare drop (or any drop you want, for that matter) all the way to 100% by spending enough traces on it, and that refinement shouldn't have to be done all at once. I'd like to be able to take a Neo S5, for example, and select the Frost P Systems, dump 500 traces into it (since it's uncommon, 1000 for rare would be fair), and know that I'm going to get that drop. This leaves a healthy balance between RNG getting you items for a lot less work, or putting enough time/effort into something to guarantee that you get what you want.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Sange13 said:

Agree with most of this, except, "RNG is never bad unless tied to something that has a time lock to it."

RNG can be really bad, regardless of time locks, based on how it works. While a certain amount of it is fun, especially within the context of targeted farming (like this game and Borderlands, Torchlight 2, and more), there are kinds of RNG that are definitively not fun. I actually point towards the relic system as something with a strong concept, but less than ideal implementation.

Specifically, I think you should be able to push the % chance to get the rare drop (or any drop you want, for that matter) all the way to 100% by spending enough traces on it, and that refinement shouldn't have to be done all at once. I'd like to be able to take a Neo S5, for example, and select the Frost P Systems, dump 500 traces into it (since it's uncommon, 1000 for rare would be fair), and know that I'm going to get that drop. This leaves a healthy balance between RNG getting you items for a lot less work, or putting enough time/effort into something to guarantee that you get what you want.

One thing i love about rifts in Diablo Sange is that over time the % goes up on getting rare items and resets again once you get one. 

Something that Warframe could do very well. 

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I think adding yet another currency system is the wrong way to go with this game.  We got credits, with got platinum, we got ducats which we got to go to the relay to spend, we got syndicate medallions which we got to go to the relay to use.  Now you want another one?  The whole token system is basically "I don't want to wait, give it now".  This entire game is about getting stuff, making something easy to get just kills the game.  Sorties are a joke to begin with, they are easy, the only want to make them hard is to do it yourself.  Just because you don't want to play with others, doesn't mean I could be stuck with yet another currency.  You want arcanes in there too?  Whats the point of raids?  I hear only like 15% of Warframe have done raids, adding them to sorties would completely make running the raid pointless as "why run the raid when I can save up tokens for a few days and get the rare arcane i wanted".  The only people I see a token system helping is those who don't want to put the work in to get stuff, those who don't want to wait, or those who don't want to wait and don't want to spend the plat so they don't have to.  It hurts all those who enjoy coming on to do the sortie, get to together with some clanmates, run a raid with alliance members.  no offense to you personally, but I really hope DE never makes this a thing

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18 minutes ago, (PS4)Agent-7oh9 said:

The whole token system is basically "I don't want to wait, give it now".

did you even read the concept ?

It's not "I don't want to wait, give it now", it's "I don't want some irrelevant random loot and I prefer to wait and work toward having THE loot i'm looking for"

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31 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

did you even read the concept ?

It's not "I don't want to wait, give it now", it's "I don't want some irrelevant random loot and I prefer to wait and work toward having THE loot i'm looking for"

Yes, I did read it, and that's exactly what it seems like to me?  What do you want out of sorties?  Riven mods correct?  Rare Arcanes?  Instead of just keep running these simple missions daily, until you get them, you spend a few days save up your tokens, get what you wanted then your done.  No more Sorties?  Why because in a matter of a few days or even a few weeks, you got everything you needed.  Sorties are none pointless because you got what you wanted.  It's quickly save up the token you need, to get what you want.  That is exactly I don't want to wait for it.  What's the worst thing in Sorties?  2000 endo?  Sorties takes a half hour?  2000 Endo is not a bad reward for a half hours work.  Is what you wanted?  No, but its still not a bad reward with how easy the missions are.  Exterminate, Spy, Rescue is today's sorties, 20 minutes, that's counting your load time.  So yes to me, a token system is a "give me what I want because I'm salty" system.  It doesn't help the game, the relic system which some people didn't like, help the game by adding changes in the mission types you ran when you were looking for that one part.  A token system doesn't help the game, it just gives you what you want so you can stop running them.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Agent-7oh9 said:

I think adding yet another currency system is the wrong way to go with this game.  We got credits, with got platinum, we got ducats which we got to go to the relay to spend, we got syndicate medallions which we got to go to the relay to use.  Now you want another one?  The whole token system is basically "I don't want to wait, give it now".  This entire game is about getting stuff, making something easy to get just kills the game.  Sorties are a joke to begin with, they are easy, the only want to make them hard is to do it yourself.  Just because you don't want to play with others, doesn't mean I could be stuck with yet another currency.  You want arcanes in there too?  Whats the point of raids?  I hear only like 15% of Warframe have done raids, adding them to sorties would completely make running the raid pointless as "why run the raid when I can save up tokens for a few days and get the rare arcane i wanted".  The only people I see a token system helping is those who don't want to put the work in to get stuff, those who don't want to wait, or those who don't want to wait and don't want to spend the plat so they don't have to.  It hurts all those who enjoy coming on to do the sortie, get to together with some clanmates, run a raid with alliance members.  no offense to you personally, but I really hope DE never makes this a thing

So aside from the straw-man argument about wanting stuff now, this boils down to, "I don't want another currency because currencies are bad."

I don't buy it. Bad argument.

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Sange13 said:

So aside from the straw-man argument about wanting stuff now, this boils down to, "I don't want another currency because currencies are bad."

I don't buy it. Bad argument.

basically the whole reason for a token system is "half these rewards are no good to me so i should be able to pick my reward."  bad reason to add a new system.  My other points were just as valid just because you choice to ignore them, doesn't change that.

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Agent-7oh9 said:

basically the whole reason for a token system is "half these rewards are no good to me so i should be able to pick my reward."  bad reason to add a new system.  My other points were just as valid just because you choice to ignore them, doesn't change that.

You had no other points, and getting useless rewards for something that you can only do once a day is definitely a bad thing. You have yet to show anything to the contrary, and many points in this thread have been made which support it.

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Just now, (PS4)Sange13 said:

You had no other points, and getting useless rewards for something that you can only do once a day is definitely a bad thing. You have yet to show anything to the contrary, and many points in this thread have been made which support it.

Being able to run the sortie more then once a day would be a far better system then a token system.  Just because there are some people who agree with it, doesn't mean it is a good idea.  There has been people who commented against it.

Other points

rewards based on how easy it is to do

adding arcanes makes raids points (also hurts the market on arcanes)

no point in adding this system as it doesn't add to the game, only take awake

I have not seen any real points in this other then I can only run it once a day and I don't get what I want

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)Agent-7oh9 said:

Being able to run the sortie more then once a day would be a far better system then a token system.  Just because there are some people who agree with it, doesn't mean it is a good idea.  There has been people who commented against it.

Other points

rewards based on how easy it is to do - "Easy" is subjective, but it's harder than the majority of the content in the game.

adding arcanes makes raids points (also hurts the market on arcanes) - Not by much considering the way arcanes work

no point in adding this system as it doesn't add to the game, only take awake - Nothing is being taken away, but it adds to the game through player satisfaction, which increases player retention. The current sorties system is so bad that many players don't even bother with it at all, and THAT takes away from the game.

I have not seen any real points in this other then I can only run it once a day and I don't get what I want

If you haven't "seen any real points," it's because you don't want to--not because they aren't there. As for whether it's a good idea, the support for it is overwhelming compared to the resistance, and from a f2p perspective, it's generally better to give people some form of what they want rather than let a bad system fester and pollute the mood toward the game.

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