Rivens: Not Rewarding, Still Don't Fix Bad Weapons

[GreenVajene]

The stated intent of Rivens was to make crap-tier weapons viable.

There is a crap tier weapon that I dearly want to be viable: the Stradavar.

In trying to achieve viability for the Stradavar, I have instead achieved something else entirely: misery.

Stradavar's paltry base stats demand a very specific set of modifiers which are very high (basically "god" stats by Riven standards) in order to make it remotely competitive with an un-Rivened Soma.

With the possible combinations of Riven results, my chances of hitting that sweet spot, given my terrible luck, are so low as to be laughable. Which brings me to the next problem:

Investing thousands and thousands of Kuva do not guarantee, or even marginally increase the chances of, getting you what you need. Not "want." Literally what is needed to make a crappy weapon viable. Every reroll is much more likely to result in "terrible" or "meh," than the tiny likelihood of getting "one of two possible stat combinations at sufficient value to make the weapon usable."

Suggested improvements:

1. Please let us choose stats.

Here's an idea: Riven mods start at 14 drain and MR10. When you reroll, you can do a "Hard cycle" or a "Soft cycle." A hard cycle costs more kuva and allows you to keep one stat upon rerolling, but increases the card drain by 1, with an additional choice and drain for each roll (capping at 18, with 4 chosen stats). A soft cycle increases the MR by 1 and randomizes the stats again, resetting its drain to 14. Successive soft or hard rerolls would cost more kuva. JUST SPITBALLIN' HERE

2. Equate disposition with relevant stat availability on unveiling and rerolls.

Weapons with strong disposition should have a smaller pool of possible stat results, and they should all be positive, either damage or utility. Getting negative damage on an already crappy weapon is just plain cruel. Neutral and faint of course don't need such consideration; I think it's fair that on already good weapons a Riven should be more of a trade-off than "let's make this lawnmower of lv150 bombards a lawnmower of lv250 bombards."

3. Equate disposition with relevant stat availability and base stat buffs.

A +90% critical chance Riven is utterly useless on a weapon with 10% base critical chance. It'll take 2-3 mod slots, plus the Riven mod to get that crit to something remotely usable, and only after headshotting or killing an enemy with already expensive-to-acquire rare mods. But you know what would be really decent? If a small percentage of a stat buff (say 5% of that +90%) is added onto the weapon as flat base buff. IOW: 4.5 (5% of 90) is added to that 10 base critical to make it a 14.5% base critical chance, which mods (including the Riven) then modify. So by adding that Riven, its buff actually becomes relevant. For neutral, maybe it would be an even smaller percentage, and faint of course would have no percentage added to base. This could apply to anything... status chance, reload speed, damage and crit damage... 

 

These may not be the best ideas, but seriously: DE says they want to make crappy weapons viable. I want that too.

But in this current iteration, Rivens don't provide the ability to make desired crappy weapons usable except, at best, to a tiny tiny minority of players who may or may not even care about the viability of the weapon in question.

TL;DR

Rivens are unlikely to fulfil their mandate of improving crappy weapons, and there is no incentive to investment in those weapons other than a gambling addiction because the chances of getting what you need to truly elevate those weapons to "usable in sorties" are abysmal.

Suggested relief:

1. Equate rising investment with greater security of rewards (lock in stats at the cost of increased mod drain)

2. Don't let crap tier weapons get suck-tier stat nerfs; shrink that available stat modifier pool so terrible weapons don't get more terrible.

3. Give crap tier weapons small base buffs corresponding to the positive stats on a Riven, so say a +crit chance mod would add 5% of its Riven modifier as a flat buff to the weapon's base stats.

Edited December 3, 2016 by GreenVajene
Clarity

[Mcl_Blue]

As soon as you dedicate yourself fully to a single aspect of the game, it will burn you out faster than you can realize it. This is as true of Rivens as it is of all the "farmings" that came before it.

I'm not saying that Rivens don't need to be improved, they really do, but if it's getting to the point where they're "killing the game for you", maybe it's time to take a step back and look at other things the game has to offer. Or take a break.

[GreenVajene]

Just now, Mcl_BlueMadness said:

As soon as you dedicate yourself fully to a single aspect of the game, it will burn you out faster than you can realize it. This is as true of Rivens as it is of all the "farmings" that came before it.

I'm not saying that Rivens don't need to be improved, they really do, but if it's getting to the point where they're "killing the game for you", maybe it's time to take a step back and look at other things the game has to offer. Or take a break.

Oh yeah, that's why I am taking a break (mostly). But that's not really the thrust of this post.

[onieyez]

it needs 400% crit/crit damage just to be better than soma and sybaris, at 300% bonus it matches their power

 

I'm just waiting for shutgun mods now

Edited December 3, 2016 by onieyez

[GreenVajene]

4 minutes ago, onieyez said:

it needs 400% crit/crit damage just to be better than soma and sybaris, at 300% bonus it matches their power

 

I'm just waiting for shutgun mods now

And no Riven mod, as far as I'm aware, will ever provide +300% in two different stats.

That's why I suggested that, on "Strong" disposition weapons, a percentage of the stat bonus is added to the base stats. So +150% crit chance might add say, 7.5 to the base crit chance as a flat bonus (making it 17.5 on auto and 27.5 on semi), before adding the Riven, making it 43.75 auto/68.75 semi. Point strike+Riven  would make that 70%/110% and with AS after a headshot would be 164.5%/258.5%.

Suddenly the Stradavar would start to look like a contender.

[Xzorn]

There are certain limitations to the damage system that will prevent some weapons like the Stradavar from ever being good.

There's a reason that pure physical Slash damage has become a viable and strong melee build and this would be the 80th time in 3 years I've said they need to fix the damage system. 

There are cases where DE's intentions hold true. Weapons with decent damage type distribution but lack some power.. Weapons like Paracyst, Braton Prime and even Supra for example. Ammo economy and mag size are some of the bigger problems for rifle type primaries in general but all Riven mods have access to multi-shot, which helps with both.

10% is actually the cut off point for a crit viable weapon. Braton Prime again, has 10% crit chance and it's a Crit viable weapon even without a Riven mod. It's not the best roll, the best is going to be multi-shot on every single weapon but it's hardly useless.

I stated months ago that Launchers should be their own category of weapons in a Sorties discussion. Too late now I guess.

 

[Zaniel_Aus]

I got a God-tier Stadavar Riven mod: +Crit chance, + multishot, +elemental, no downside and it still doesn't stack up to my basic Soma.

The Riven system will simply never fix garbage weapons.

[Loswaith]

This is why the weapons themselves needed to be adjusted (there are large variances even within the strong disposition riven category).  

Low stat weapons with 200%+ bonuses wont ever get close to the high stat collection of weapons with a 60%-100% bonus.

Sure it will help moderate stat weapons a bit but even those will be struggling to keep up.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Loswaith

[Guest]

Rivens are a used band-aid that was dropped on a dirty floor and stepped on before being applied to a festering wound...  they're absolutely not going to solve the problem.  Personally, I've pretty much given up on rivens and I continue playing the guns I enjoy (shotguns and launchers mostly) regardless of the meta.  I'm just wondering if DE is really going to wait 6 months for their data to show no change in weapon usage statistics before making any changes.  Are they gonna roll out rivens to the rest of the weapons before fixing this junk?  I sincerely hope not.