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[DE]Rebecca

The road to 15/15 [Spoiler] Mods.

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I suggest we get a way to "re-obtain" rivens. I mean, lets say I got multiple rivens for same weapon but I want riven for some other weapons therefor I would like to have a way for transmuting/re-rolling/re-obtaining riven without the use of trade chat. Or at least disolve into Kuva based on number of rolls(more rolls more kuva,maybe 50-75% of total spent).

Also I personally dont buy them so I am not rushing with my collection but 15 is defenetely not enough. Most veterans I know keep a lot of old weapons such as glaxions,opticors,flux rifles and so on. We used to enjoy them a lot but there are more weapons than riven slots so...yeah an issue might arise since we would love to see those weapons back in action. I personally was able to start using Flux Rifle again against high lvl enemies and cant wait to get riven for some other weapons i loved.

I personally would like to see more rivens for secondary and melee in future and if that happens 15 slots is defenetely not enough.

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This is just my personal experience, your mileage may vary.

Capacity for Riven mods isn't likely to be a concern for me for a while ~ I don't find Riven mods compelling. I have weapons that work just fine for me, I'm not a Min/Maxer, and I'm not looking to play on the Manhood Test Levels. I play Warframe because it's fun to run around like a Space Superhero, and I don't care to go hunt for mods that will partially turn my Mire and Ceramic Dagger into weapons almost-but-not-quite worth playing with again.  I applaud the concept behind Riven mods, I just don't find that concept "fun" enough to jump through all the hoops I'd have to in order to 'unlock' the one Riven I have.

Again, this is just MHO, I'm not passing judgment on Rivens in general.  I post because I'm sure I'm not the only Tenno who feels this way, and DE should be aware we're out here, that's all.

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Just now, Trichouette said:

What I mean is rather, as long as I can't lock some stats, I don't see the point in grinding kuva for the whole day just to roll the mod forever to get random stupid stats like -recoil on amprex or -damage on any other weapon.

so far I didn't even get to reroll anything good at all, and some of my mods already have 8 cycle.

It's boring and tedious.

Yaaay let's reroll 50time the same mod.

fun and totally not boring. Especially with the forever increasing kuva cost

If you had a say in the stats this would easily and quickly become simply a powercreep system because everyone would be searching the über stats --> Less need for getting new Riven mods ---> Less reason to play the game.

Also, people need to start getting into a mentality where there's a point in which it's just not worth spending more Kuva onto a mod -- I'd personally wouldn't re roll a mod more than 8 times, and even getting to 8 would require the RIven to be for a weapon I do REALLY like.

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2 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

If you had a say in the stats this would easily and quickly become simply a powercreep system because everyone would be searching the über stats --> Less need for getting new Riven mods ---> Less reason to play the game.

Also, people need to start getting into a mentality where there's a point in which it's just not worth spending more Kuva onto a mod -- I'd personally wouldn't re roll a mod more than 8 times, and even getting to 8 would require the RIven to be for a weapon I do REALLY like.

So far i'm looking for rivens for weapons I find funny like dera and braton and even when I get one, the stats are so stupid there is no points at all.

I'm still waiting for the day we'll get damage 3.0 and no more "+damage" stats on mods, but that'll never happen anyway.

I don't want "the ultimate riven with perfect stats", but locking stats is still needed.

And even without locking, the chance of geting the perfect roll is possible but so weak, so why not just remove part of the grindfest.

 

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4 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Also, people need to start getting into a mentality where there's a point in which it's just not worth spending more Kuva onto a mod -- I'd personally wouldn't re roll a mod more than 8 times, and even getting to 8 would require the RIven to be for a weapon I do REALLY like.

Heh, I've rerolled my buzlok mod 20 times, and I've kept the same stats since about the 4th roll. I don't have a problem, I can quit any time I want

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Couple ideas here to try and help alleviate the issues at play here.

1. Overage. I think instead of forcing the immediate dissolve, how about sending the newly acquired Riven as a inbox message/gift to be claimed when space is available to do so. This would allow players to make space by any means at their leisure.

2. Maximum Capacity. While the idea of increasing capacity sounds great, there needs to be a clear balance between the current amount and how much it increases. For fairness, this could be by Mastery Rank, as people would like, but how about only +1 Capacity per 4 MR. This would bump the maximum up to 20, for those at least MR 20 currently.

When additional Rivens get added, could expand it by another 5-10, depending on which weapons get added, Shotguns for example wouldn't really even need an increase, due to how few there are currently. Melee and Secondaries however would need such an increase, due to the wide variety they have, similar to rifles.

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57 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

I would request that you look into more useful methods of dissolving Riven mods, since it seems to be a built-in part of their existence.

Options might be: dissolving them into Kuva rather than Endo, or having the option to Transmute 4 unwanted Rivens into a new Veiled one.

^So much this.

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So I have been collecting a lot of these mods and have been near capacity for a bit now. From my experience the current mod limit is creating the opposite effect of what the Riven mods were aimed at doing; giving new life to old under performing weapons. The reason for that being is that with each new mod that i acquire I have to quickly decide what weapon is going to get the "short end of the stick" and it usually falls back that the weaker weapons lose out. Also, sometimes I have extra mods for the same weapon but again with the limit I also have to decide which approach I want to go with my weapon as the capacity forces me to decide what i can do not what i want to do. It just becomes a filter of which is the better mod for the more useful weapon. It becomes a "Should I keep this mod that gives the Hind 230 damage or the one that makes my dread red crit on every shot?" Yeah, easy choice to make. 

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azamagon dude have some points in there the thing i hate the most is having one mod giving 200% dmg and a friend have the same mod with just 160%


make exemple
payer MR 8 = 2 positive stats
player MR 16 = 3 positive stats and one negative

make static stats
powerfull weapons 100% dmg
mediom weapons 150% dmg
week weapons 200% dmg

make the % static for the weapons  but the stats random
riven mods can become fair if DE start too looking at things like that
cuz right now are too much random and wow
 

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Well y'know, you guys could always do the Sortie Token concept that has been getting tossed around pretty much since sorties came out, and then people can buy the rewards they want with that. 2000/4000 endo, 3x nitain, Forma BLUEPRINT, and Catalyst/Reactor blueprints are not even close to being end-game rewards.

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I still think we need more sources of rivens. It's a small portion of the player base who is near 15. I've done every sortie since the first revision to rivens and I have about 5. some have more and some have less but only due to randomness, not commitment or skill. 

Anything like a token system or a high cost syndicate reward would work. 

We'll need more sources whenever other weapon types are added and it's better to make the changes now so the system can be tested while it's new.  

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My only question here is,

How am I (and many of us, I bet I'm not alone in this boat) supposed to reach the 15 riven mod cap if rivens can be obtained only 0nce a day but most of sortie rewards end up being 2K endo, forma, and lenses (or nitain, luckily I haven't had those yet)?

(I'm not willing to buy them since my lucky is awful to the point of the riven I bought for my favorite weapon has been re rolled around 15 times and the best stats are the ones it had even before the first re-roll)

Edited by -----LegioN-----

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1 hour ago, FierceRadiance said:

This is just my personal experience, your mileage may vary.

Capacity for Riven mods isn't likely to be a concern for me for a while ~ I don't find Riven mods compelling. I have weapons that work just fine for me, I'm not a Min/Maxer, and I'm not looking to play on the Manhood Test Levels. I play Warframe because it's fun to run around like a Space Superhero, and I don't care to go hunt for mods that will partially turn my Mire and Ceramic Dagger into weapons almost-but-not-quite worth playing with again.  I applaud the concept behind Riven mods, I just don't find that concept "fun" enough to jump through all the hoops I'd have to in order to 'unlock' the one Riven I have.

Again, this is just MHO, I'm not passing judgment on Rivens in general.  I post because I'm sure I'm not the only Tenno who feels this way, and DE should be aware we're out here, that's all.

I'm with you. Just don't see the point. My quest-given Riven mod was for a Panthera, a weapon I don't use because it was no fun to play. Adding 12% magnetic and subtracting -150% damage is not going to make me play something that isn't enjoyable. Did not really give me much hope for Riven mods in general.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Some things about changes to Riven Mod Capacity...but nothing about changes to the actual mods themselves.

Thank you - stay tuned for updates. We'll likely be discussing in Friday's Devstream too!

Is this to be taken as an indication that the discussion concerning some of the "peculiarities" with Riven Mod stats (ex. negative damage in excess of 100%, stats not matching weapon characteristics, etc.) is now over?  Not that there was much of a discussion to begin with between the community and DE.  Just a whole lotta "We're going ahead, with or without you" attitude.

It would be appreciated if the following could be addressed:

Why is there a lack of equivalency between the stated intent of Riven Mod (see Riven Mods Dev Workshop Post #1) and what was actually rolled out?  Specifically, the fact that there is a random chance to roll a perfect zero on mod that is intended to make less useful weapons actually useful.  Also, why are Riven Mods currently the only reward system in the game that can reward a player for their efforts with absolutely nothing?  And before anyone jumps in and says that I can just Cycle the mod again, or that RNG gotta be RNG, I'd like to point out that this rebuttal is a fallacy - it is not part of Warframe RNG in any way.  Every reward system in Warframe - resource farming, relic farming, endo farming, sorties and trials, daily login, Syndicates, etc - gives the player something for their effort.  The reward may be random and may seem worthless, but it is still something.  Riven Mods are different.  You can farm the mod, do the challenge, farm the kuva...and get nothing for it.

I'd like to know why this is so.  Why is this fact of Riven Mods included along with words like "incentive" for instance?  And I'd also like to know if "nothing for something" is something players can expect more of in the future.

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11 hours ago, BAY35 said:

Well y'know, you guys could always do the Sortie Token concept that has been getting tossed around pretty much since sorties came out, and then people can buy the rewards they want with that. 2000/4000 endo, 3x nitain, Forma BLUEPRINT, and Catalyst/Reactor blueprints are not even close to being end-game rewards.

Lets say you get 10 token per sortie and a riven mod costs 10 token, you would get riven mods everyday

If riven mods cost more then you end up doing sorties and essentially not getting a reward, if you want a reward then you need to buy cheaper stuff everyday, so things like forma would cost less than 10 tokens, so on the long term you could have enough tokens to buy more rewards than the sorties you completed, for example, buying 10 rewards for every 5 sorties.

While this may seem super cool, especially with endo in the mix, DE has already solidified a strategy to make players keep playing the game, by making sure that they return tomorrow to try again in a RNG reward, making sure you get 1 reward that may be the reward you want.

Anything that improves the system where you get the things you want faster or more rewards per sortie will lead players to have less things to do, less things to aim for and they will stop playing faster, while this doesn't affect everyone, there is massive ammounts of players with the "get everything they can" as a game objective, so the more you extend this objective, the better for DE.

I understand the reason behind a token system, but even if it's implemented, DE will make it grindy for sure and overall players will complain about the lack of potential rewards compared to the system we have now.

Edited by KIREEK
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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hey all,

I'll be using Spoiler tags in titles for just a bit longer until our Console family gets to see their first Riven Mods, although I wouldn't be surprised if the cat was way out of the bag by now.

You have likely noticed that there is a 15 Mod inventory Capacity on Riven Mods. We expect that some of you have started to reach this Capacity. This post aims to explain:

1) What happens right now when you reach Riven Capacity?
2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
3) What's next for the Capacity?

Read on to get these questions answered!

1) What happens right now when you reach Riven Capacity?

Right now if you are in the scenario of receiving a 16th Veiled Riven via Sortie, you're sent back to your Landing Craft and locked into making a choice of which Riven to Dissolve. It can be any Riven, even the Veiled one you just received. We don't love that it locks you into this decision immediately, which is why we're making this post to explain what's next.

2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
There are many reasons we started with a 15 Riven Mod Capacity, but the most important for future Riven conversations is the database impact storing Riven Mods has. As many of you have begin amassing collections, we can begin to see what will be scalable for the system across all future Weapon types.

3) What's next for the Capacity?
The first order of iteration is to make the experience of 'going over' Capacity more forgiving for you to make a choice of what to do with your excess Riven(s). As mentioned in point 1, right now you are locked to make a choice to immediately dissolve one. We are looking at ways to improve this demand on immediacy. The next order of iteration is how to allow collection growth without impacting the performance of our databases over time. This is something we're still undecided on as we're still measuring collections, but we're happy the demand is there.

Thank you - stay tuned for updates. We'll likely be discussing in Friday's Devstream too!

 

 

Perhaps this is a good opportunity to overhaul the mod database to allow for underclocking mods so we dont have to have 10 of the same mod to fit the right capacity.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

but the most important for future Riven conversations is the database impact storing Riven Mods has

But having 100 of the same Warframe with different attachments and colorization isn't much of an issue. Nor is having multiple of every mod at every single rank an issue for the database. Of course, funny that this is the excuse we're going with since the idea that the limit was to "encourage us to be creative with our Riven mods". Whoops.

You know, if the stat boosts you got from weapons wasn't 1854854.444444% random, you might not have had this issue. Maybe if you let us choose what effects we wanted and not gone with a system that can result in two different number values for the same effect on the same mod (I have seen this with my own two, bloodshot eyes), you wouldn't have this issue of "database impact storing".

Edited by TheTundraTerror
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Hopefully the cap increases soon.

Edited by Skaleek
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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

the database impact storing Riven Mods has

Damn it's a shame how difficult it would be to predict how many different combinations of riven mods/stats would have to be stored in the database.

Are you sure you guys can't just make the Riven Mods have specific (predicted) stats but of a very large range? Instead of just having everything randomised and the scale eventually increasing the more and more riven mods are obtained and re-rolled.

Yeah it's going to anger a lot of people maybe losing a couple of percentages because each mod would have to be rounded to a specific value - but it's a small price to pay for a much more scalable system. It will also make it easier for players to know the maximum and minimum possible for stat values - i.e. striving for particular values they know are possible by re-rolling. This won't hurt your database as much because it's not continually scaling up - it's just rolling for a chance at stat values already in your database.

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Thanks for the information, but I'm going to have to stick with 'I don't care' as far as Rivens are concerned, as long as they retain their current implementation.

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My current progress is 1/15 thus far.

Has absolutely not been for lack of trying.

I'd like to see that addressed before they insult me by saying "hey you should be getting close about now".

Edited by Caelward

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3 hours ago, FlinttheImmortal said:

Is this to be taken as an indication that the discussion concerning some of the "peculiarities" with Riven Mod stats (ex. negative damage in excess of 100%, stats not matching weapon characteristics, etc.) is now over?  Not that there was much of a discussion to begin with between the community and DE.  Just a whole lotta "We're going ahead, with or without you" attitude.

It would be appreciated if the following could be addressed:

Why is there a lack of equivalency between the stated intent of Riven Mod (see Riven Mods Dev Workshop Post #1) and what was actually rolled out?  Specifically, the fact that there is a random chance to roll a perfect zero on mod that is intended to make less useful weapons actually useful.  Also, why are Riven Mods currently the only reward system in the game that can reward a player for their efforts with absolutely nothing?  And before anyone jumps in and says that I can just Cycle the mod again, or that RNG gotta be RNG, I'd like to point out that this rebuttal is a fallacy - it is not part of Warframe RNG in any way.  Every reward system in Warframe - resource farming, relic farming, endo farming, sorties and trials, daily login, Syndicates, etc - gives the player something for their effort.  The reward may be random and may seem worthless, but it is still something.  Riven Mods are different.  You can farm the mod, do the challenge, farm the kuva...and get nothing for it.

I'd like to know why this is so.  Why is this fact of Riven Mods included along with words like "incentive" for instance?  And I'd also like to know if "nothing for something" is something players can expect more of in the future.

This nicely sums up a lot of my thoughts so far.

We were asked to give Riven Mods a chance, and I think I've given them a fair shot.

I've experienced both "terrible" and "wonderful" random results now, and I don't like their presence in the game.

Getting straight to the point, I want to describe the feeling that happened when I got those "wonderful" results. It was a gambler's high. This system is touching some of the brain's deepest reward circuitry, and the compulsion to keep feeding the system is powerful.

I hated it.

I also hate the way I see players discussing Riven Mods, and their own participation in the system. People are getting hooked on this potentially endless chase, with ever-increasing demands and the possibility for destruction of progress. It makes me feel kinda sick and gross inside. I don't like that this is what Warframe is turning into; I don't like seeing the inclusion and eager adoption of systems that have used and abused players in the failed games of yore.

DE practice "design by accretion," so I'm plodding sorrowfully onward in hopes that this Riven Mod system will itself lie abandoned and forgotten.

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I recommend:

1)Extra capacity from 15 up based on MR rank

2)Transmutation of unwanted rivens into one new Riven

3) Dissolving Rivens into Kuva and not Endo

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One similar mechanic from a game called Spiral Knights are unique variables. You can pay a character in game to give up to three random stats to a weapon or armor. It random, and if you don't like the bonuses, you pretty much need to pay the whole cost again, but the character allies you to pay a little extra to lock in any of the previous bonuses you liked, so they will not be effected by the randomize re-roll. If this is the nature we want going forward with Rivens, perhaps this might be useful to have. Also I think the earlier idea of Rivens giving Kuva when dissolved is interesting; maybe something like that could give an increasing amount of kuva based on the number of times the mod has been cycled.

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