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[DE]Rebecca

The road to 15/15 [Spoiler] Mods.

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9 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hey all,

I'll be using Spoiler tags in titles for just a bit longer until our Console family gets to see their first Riven Mods, although I wouldn't be surprised if the cat was way out of the bag by now.

You have likely noticed that there is a 15 Mod inventory Capacity on Riven Mods. We expect that some of you have started to reach this Capacity. This post aims to explain:

1) What happens right now when you reach Riven Capacity?
2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
3) What's next for the Capacity?

Read on to get these questions answered!

1) What happens right now when you reach Riven Capacity?

Right now if you are in the scenario of receiving a 16th Veiled Riven via Sortie, you're sent back to your Landing Craft and locked into making a choice of which Riven to Dissolve. It can be any Riven, even the Veiled one you just received. We don't love that it locks you into this decision immediately, which is why we're making this post to explain what's next.

2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
There are many reasons we started with a 15 Riven Mod Capacity, but the most important for future Riven conversations is the database impact storing Riven Mods has. As many of you have begin amassing collections, we can begin to see what will be scalable for the system across all future Weapon types.

3) What's next for the Capacity?
The first order of iteration is to make the experience of 'going over' Capacity more forgiving for you to make a choice of what to do with your excess Riven(s). As mentioned in point 1, right now you are locked to make a choice to immediately dissolve one. We are looking at ways to improve this demand on immediacy. The next order of iteration is how to allow collection growth without impacting the performance of our databases over time. This is something we're still undecided on as we're still measuring collections, but we're happy the demand is there.

Thank you - stay tuned for updates. We'll likely be discussing in Friday's Devstream too!

 

 

Ok so judging by what you said i'm guessing you guys are storing the riven mods as a flat generic mod with every posible stat either filled(if that mod has it) or null. If my extrapolation of this is corect ... wouldn't it be better for you guys to store generic codes say #GB58 for example that you would translate using a library to status change and multishot and the mod database would only require weapon name and generated code?

Edit: And the scaling would be done by using the MR of said account and the internal formula you guys have.

Edited by kaotis
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I kind of figured that was the explanation. The idea that limiting Riven mods expands creativity seemed baffling in its' immediate hypocrisy. It being a technical issue makes a lot more sense. 

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12 hours ago, KIREEK said:

Can't DE increase the size of said database to store the contents of riven mods?

It costs money, and they will have to increase the storage size by a lot more than you think, data corruption is unacceptable, so they'll have to add parity drives or an off-site backup server, both are expensive as you might imagine. I would agree if it was for high amount of plats though, because DE kinda gets the money for that storage I guess?

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It is understandable. I guess the best solution without increasing Riven capacity would be locking riven usage (being able to unveil and use them in weapons) if you are over 15 riven mod capacity.

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Or Rivens should have never existed due to outrageous and continual power creep.

 

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13 hours ago, KIREEK said:

Keep in mind i considered MR 12 to be a tad high when it came to a requirement for the sindicate primaries, MR 13 was also high and now at MR16 i was for the 1st time in 4k hours forced to grind for content i didn't want, so don't make the MR affect the number of riven mods.

LMFAO

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55 minutes ago, shadow0727 said:

LMFAO

Not everyone has the goal to farm for content (mastery related), others make use of the content they have, it's a bit obvious that with litle content (or content designed for very specific tasks) combined with 4k hours (not steam hours) that i am among one of the most experienced players around, i see that in every game and i do mean in every single game.

So yes i don't like it that i was forced to grind for weapons and gear (that means leveling up to 30) and then discard them because they have no place in my arsenal, they have no role they can fit, they can't replace what i have already.

I enjoyed my time being a MR9, then i accepted MR12 and 13, but now i have to endure being 16, while it ain't that bad, i hope mastery isn't something that affects rivens in anyway.

Edited by KIREEK
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15 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
There are many reasons we started with a 15 Riven Mod Capacity, but the most important for future Riven conversations is the database impact storing Riven Mods has. As many of you have begin amassing collections, we can begin to see what will be scalable for the system across all future Weapon types.
 

First of all, thanks for telling us truth! I, personally, really appreciate it.

Spoiler

See, this is not hurt so much. And always remember, some people can believe to you. This " limitations encourages creativity" just have no sence in this case, it's like Mikelangelo can create only 15 images in whole life.

Actually, Bunny already mention most important part. If we have restriction, we must have option to dissolve Riven for a some kind of a Riven endo. I will be a bit more brave and say we can have a craft system at this point.

  • One riven mod dissolved to 30 riven endo
  • You can create random riven strong disposition for 50 Rendo
  • Neutral 80 Rendo
  • Faint 150 Rendo.
  • Any weapon 200 Rendo.
  • Maybe somekind of farm Rendo, i mean more rerolls=more Rendo from dissolve. That will be good, since only one way to get one Riven is a clear 5 sorties.

This will be purpose for two targets. First of all it a perfect solution for all your database belong to us riven mods. Players will clear em, and even trade from people who don't need their Rivens. This is why not just transmutation, but somekind of riven enegry -- that will help you too. And, obliviosly, that will be more fair for a players, couse they are forced to dissolve their "rewards".

 

Next step is a plat slots. Actually it will be unhealthy, and i hope unneeded. But, a bit money is always good restriction from a uncontrolled growing of database. For a people, who really have more than a 15 mods this will not be something they will care about since Rivens are already based on trades. and for people who play "solo/fair" this will not be a real restriction.

But, as i mention, it is a bit unhealthy -- buy slots for a mods. Anyway, what we got now much worse.

Edited by -JT-_-R3W1ND

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14 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

Not everyone has the goal to farm for content (mastery related), others make use of the content they have, it's a bit obvious that with litle content (or content designed for very specific tasks) combined with 4k hours (not steam hours) that i am among one of the most experienced players around, i see that in every game and i do mean in every single game.

So yes i don't like it that i was forced to grind for weapons and gear (that means leveling up to 30) and then discard them because they have no place in my arsenal, they have no role they can fit, they can't replace what i have already.

I enjoyed my time being a MR9, then i accepted MR12 and 13, but now i have to endure being 16, while it ain't that bad, i hope mastery isn't something that affects rivens in anyway.

Please explain how you were "forced" to grind for gear you dont want. That statement does not make any sense, unless someone has a gun to your head, in which case ill take it back, otherwise, if you dont want it, dont grind for it.

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I think I would be comfortable with a 15 Riven limit forever, personally, but then that would just become a new "comfort zone" where I just keep my established mods and don't bother trying new stuff.

And to be fair, with the time/resources investment, I don't think it is such an eccentric behavior that to settle down with some equipment. Just put 8 forma in Grakata, that needed some time I don't think I'll sink in every weapon just because of a Riven mod.

With all this said, I would like to say that I am genuinely excited at the prospect of Riven mods for Warframes.

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16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:


2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
There are many reasons we started with a 15 Riven Mod Capacity, but the most important for future Riven conversations is the database impact storing Riven Mods has. As many of you have begin amassing collections, we can begin to see what will be scalable for the system across all future Weapon types.
 

A possible solution to the database constraints for Rivens without having such a harsh measure would be to introduce a new state for newly acquired Rivens. Let's called them "clouded." When you obtain a Riven, it is "clouded" and has no custom information at all: no challenge, no weapon, etc. This would make it a single and inexpensive database entry: you just need to store an integer value of "clouded" Riven mods. A player can have an unlimited number of "clouded" Rivens, but cannot trade, equip, or otherwise do anything with them. They would stack with the same "duplicate" counter as normal mods in the mod inventory and just sit there until a player "examines" them.

Once examined, it becomes a Veiled Riven mod as we currently obtain now. The randomized stats would be generated and a line added to the database. A player can only "examine" a clouded mod if they have less than 15 non-clouded Riven mods. Once examined, they work like the current Riven system does now. In fact, Rivens could be automatically "examined" if you don't want players hoarding them, or you could allow players to choose when to examine Rivens, which would help avoid the situation where a player has 14/15 Rifle Riven mods and wants a Pistol Riven mod, but then obtains a Rifle Riven as a reward for a mission. With the "clouded" pre-step, those mods could stay "clouded" until the player obtains the correct weapon type and "examines" it, pushing that particular type into their 15th slot for unveiling and use.

This "clouded" state would do is add a database-inexpensive "buffer" for storing pre-veiled Rivens and avoid the situation where players are forced to dissolve extras at all. It would not otherwise provide a gameplay advantage, since players wouldn't see the Veiled challenge and wouldn't be able to opt to ignore harder challenges, or be able to trade them en mass, or have a negative impact on the database if they were to hoard hundreds of them.

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7 hours ago, SonicSonedit said:

This is what happens when you store your info in string literals instead of converting into actual data types.

Agreed, but how do you know how they're storing the Riven metadata?

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17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hey all,

You have likely noticed that there is a 15 Mod inventory Capacity on Riven Mods. We expect that some of you have started to reach this Capacity. This post aims to explain:
 

 

Reb, for once my luck has run out. Since The Spoilertag Within dropped, I've gotten *9* (read as *way too many*) 2k Endo IN A ROW, with only a very slight reprieve yesterday in the form of a Lens (type that I don't use).

I don't particularly care about getting a bunch of Rivens, more so I care about getting WAY fewer 2K Endos for my Sortie "reward" (read as "punishment").

...A few Rivens as Sortie rewards would be welcome at this point though, of course. :clem:

 

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Possible solution for those who attain them after hitting limit, for specific category, would be to allow them to unveil it and then decide which to dissolve pertaining to said category, and/or for future mods, allow conversion to another category rather than having to completely discard it.
Just a thought.

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We need a smaller delta of randomness for the Riven Mods:

As is, getting a very good Riven mod is just going to make a few lucky players happy, while those that either get ones for a weapon they don't like, or just ones with a bad roll (the majority, considering the chances) will just be left disappointed.

Edited by Archonos23
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2 hours ago, shadow0727 said:

Please explain how you were "forced" to grind for gear you dont want. That statement does not make any sense, unless someone has a gun to your head, in which case ill take it back, otherwise, if you dont want it, dont grind for it.

Riven mods may have up to MR16 to be used, some of the ones i aquired had indeed a MR16 and that forced me to grind for it.

Considering what i have is sometimes designed for very specific factions, bosses, sorties and team strategies, having to grind for more content was very unexpected, the only thing i noticed was that the weapons i grinded for had no real use, no matter how much effort i would place into finding such a use, so the grind wall is something i would like not to see increased.

Edited by KIREEK

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Well besides many things I think and were discussed on this to improve the current riven system.

I can understand that with a player base of this size you have to calculate the impact it has on your database, altough I also think you should have a database according to that size and demands.

It's kinda disappointing that at this moment I hold more then 30 rifles and have only 15  slots for those mods, and you know, outside the top performing weapons this 15 slots are not enough anyway to improve the underperforming weapons that was the reason for this mods to exist according to your explications.

So with this in mind, 2 suggestions, tie the mod capacity to the weapon slots you own, because afterall they are paid.
2- Tie them to your mastery too, because it's a representation of the equipment you own or owned.

 

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17 hours ago, Trichouette said:

But that's completely stupid.

Why do I have a sybaris mod that grant 150% damage and when I cycle it I get another roll for +138% damage.

Why doesn't each stat have its own fixed %

First it would fix (part of) the database issue, and it would remove a bit of the random (a very VERY tiny bit)

Right now it's already non interesting and boring, I don't even get what they want to do with that system.

I kind of agree.  If the system was to encourage people to break out different weapons, then I would think the "good" rolls would be set in stone, scaling by MR of the mod.

Right now, I'm always encouraged to re-roll a riven, because even if I get a good roll, there's always the possibility of a better one.

It's also not really made me use any weapons I wasn't already using.  

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18 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

but the most important for future Riven conversations is the database impact storing Riven Mods has

"Thats why we gave riven mods such a low chance to drop from sorties" Well played DE.

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Is there really people with 15 rivens already ? I didn't miss any sorties since TWW is out and only have 5 of them. I got a lot of 2k endos, even since the new rewards system, and more lenses and greater lenses than riven mods, maybe 6 or 7 lenses for 5 riven mods. I would love to see the percentage of players (from the ones able to play sorties ofc) that obtained 15 rivens. 

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19 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We expect that some of you have started to reach this Capacity.

I still have that one I got from completing TWW quest. I've been doing sorties ever since and still no Riven Mod for me.

Aside from my salt here it is good to know that cap is going to increase. I was wondering what will happen when they release Riven's for all weapon (Shotguns/Sidearms/Melee).

EDIT: About database problems maybe you shoud just drop those 3 part / 2 part names when riven mod is unveiled and just name it "[weapon name] Riven Mod" instead.

Edited by HawkBlade94
didn't read about database problems

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Given that the odds of getting the 4 desired stats (does not have to be read as optimal) on a riven mod are like 1 in 337,000 (24 possible stats and 4 stats total without consideration for getting the desired weapon or that any rolled stat can scale randomly) i think there is sufficient RNG room to remove the stat scaling variable.  Because this is about storage, what this guys said. 

11 hours ago, kaotis said:

Ok so judging by what you said i'm guessing you guys are storing the riven mods as a flat generic mod with every posible stat either filled(if that mod has it) or null. If my extrapolation of this is corect ... wouldn't it be better for you guys to store generic codes say #GB58 for example that you would translate using a library to status change and multishot and the mod database would only require weapon name and generated code?

Edit: And the scaling would be done by using the MR of said account and the internal formula you guys have.

Also I agree with

3 hours ago, Archonos23 said:

We need a smaller delta of randomness for the Riven Mods:

 

20 hours ago, S0V3REiGN said:

So I have been collecting a lot of these mods and have been near capacity for a bit now. From my experience the current mod limit is creating the opposite effect of what the Riven mods were aimed at doing; giving new life to old under performing weapons. The reason for that being is that with each new mod that i acquire I have to quickly decide what weapon is going to get the "short end of the stick" and it usually falls back that the weaker weapons lose out. Also, sometimes I have extra mods for the same weapon but again with the limit I also have to decide which approach I want to go with my weapon as the capacity forces me to decide what i can do not what i want to do. It just becomes a filter of which is the better mod for the more useful weapon. It becomes a "Should I keep this mod that gives the Hind 230 damage or the one that makes my dread red crit on every shot?" Yeah, easy choice to make. 

 

2 hours ago, BBOTAA said:

...

So with this in mind, 2 suggestions, tie the mod capacity to the weapon slots you own, because after all they are paid.
2- Tie them to your mastery too, because it's a representation of the equipment you own or owned.
 

and why is this not a thing?

18 hours ago, Danjal777 said:

Perhaps this is a good opportunity to overhaul the mod database to allow for underclocking mods so we dont have to have 10 of the same mod to fit the right capacity.

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4 hours ago, Skaleek said:

Agreed, but how do you know how they're storing the Riven metadata?

Just check game data files. All in strings.

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