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[DE]Rebecca

The road to 15/15 [Spoiler] Mods.

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Well, I was gonna make a ranty thread about this topic, but it's being looked into. There should NOT be a limit on how many riven mods we can hold. My understanding for why this system came to be was to give players a reason to play with lesser used weapons. However, with a limit on how many riven mods we can have in storage, many will just keep riven mods for weapons they like, or make the stronger weapons even stronger. I mean there is absolutely nothing gained in terms of balancing of this system through putting a limit on how many riven mods we can have in storage. It just gives us less options. I'm no scientist, but less options is worse then more options last time I checked. Once we can start having riven mods for the rest of the weapons this 15 limit is going to be a huge pain. Well over 200 weapons in the game and you can only have 15 riven options for them all. Kinda pointless to even have a limit at all. No other mods have a limited amount we can store, because the modding system is supposed to be fun and full of options, right?

Any who remove the limit, thanks for reading.

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1 minute ago, SonicSonedit said:

Just check game data files. All in strings.

Well thats concerning. thanks for the info.

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I would enjoy a 15 unveiled Riven Mod capacity, and a 5-15 veiled Riven capacity. Would give us time to make trades or decide on what to do with Rivens.

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16 hours ago, SonicSonedit said:

This is what happens when you store your info in string literals instead of converting into actual data types.

Wait wait... WHAT?!? So each mod has its own string? Gez, I knew the systems in place couldn't support these mods by a game-play standpoint (no auction hall, etc), but that's crazy... Each mod has its own unique line of code stored on the database? Surely there is a way to streamline things, like for starters give the same modifiers for stat percentages to cut down unneeded unique data.

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Personally i would limit the amount of riven mods so we can have 1 riven mod for each weapon, as for getting duplicates, the prompt to get rid of a duplicate riven mod will only appear after a set time period that way the players have time to either give the riven mod to someone else, sell it, or just dissolve it into endo. The addition of a countdown timer would allow players more options in terms of having excess riven mods instead of instantly prompting them to dissolve a riven mod without even being allowed to unveil their new mod which in my personal opinion is really annoying but I wouldnt mind a limit to allow 1 riven mod for each weapon we have, the capacity will be unlimited in terms of VEILED riven mods but if a player gets a riven mod for a weapon they already have one for e.g. getting a 2nd cernos riven mod would cause a countdown timer to start, once the timer has expired the prompt to get rid of a riven mod appears like it does now. One other bonus i see to adding a countdown timer is that it allows players to decide if they want their original riven mod or sell the original in favor of the new one.

This idea was thought up as i went through it but i feel that this could have a great benefit to the riven mod system.

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One possible fix could be that non primed warframes are made in a similar sense that the Void relics are.

We have all these individual neuroptics, systems and chassis parts for non primed frames and that has to be taking up a lot of room on the servers and considering we can't do much with the non primed variants apart from make extra warframes or sell the parts for credits why does there need to be a Saryn Chassis, a Excalibur Chassis etc.

I propose that the blueprint for the individual warframes is all that remains to make them unique and we simply accumulate the other 3 components as generic core components, the way they would be assembled is all determined via the blueprint.

I'm aware this messes up the lore a little bit with Chroma and Mirage, perhaps that can be overlooked as they were the 'original' variants and the assembly instructions were spread amongst the parts of their body upon death to safeguard the information being found by other factions. That seems like a viable compromise, not putting that into perspective we have how many millions of players on warframe? And if we were to convert all non primed warframe parts into generic core components without unique titles I'm hoping that would help immensely and perhaps this could be added to primed counterparts and weapons too if that was to help at all :)

EDIT: Players who are new to the game would certainly appreciate this I've been teaching my housemate how to play the game and it's all a bit overwhelming for him, looking back on things over his shoulder pointing what to mod and how to apply fusion etc has been made much easier now and he was able to grasp that without a problem, however he doesn't have a strong grasp on blueprints especially with the limited warframe and weapon inventory slots. I've explained to him that unless he invests money into the game or trades things that are in demand for platinum he won't be able to expand his inventory size for quite a while, I briefly mentioned special weapons on the yearly anniversary etc but at that point I felt like I was melting his brain haha.

Edited by main_antagonist
non veteran comment added.

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actually have stopped doing sortie's so i wouldn't get anymore riven mods. It just seems to be something more to feed the Elitist of the game. Since the task of unveiling them is near to impossible and stats don't seem to be anything that there aren't already mods for in the game. Not to mention the rediculous cost of rerolling them just to get more crap stats. That if you farm the Kuva to do by the time you actually get the roll you want you would have Died and willed your account to someone else to enjoy.

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On 5.12.2016 at 11:51 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hey all,

I'll be using Spoiler tags in titles for just a bit longer until our Console family gets to see their first Riven Mods, although I wouldn't be surprised if the cat was way out of the bag by now.

You have likely noticed that there is a 15 Mod inventory Capacity on Riven Mods. We expect that some of you have started to reach this Capacity. This post aims to explain:

1) What happens right now when you reach Riven Capacity?
2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
3) What's next for the Capacity?

Read on to get these questions answered!

1) What happens right now when you reach Riven Capacity?

Right now if you are in the scenario of receiving a 16th Veiled Riven via Sortie, you're sent back to your Landing Craft and locked into making a choice of which Riven to Dissolve. It can be any Riven, even the Veiled one you just received. We don't love that it locks you into this decision immediately, which is why we're making this post to explain what's next.

2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
There are many reasons we started with a 15 Riven Mod Capacity, but the most important for future Riven conversations is the database impact storing Riven Mods has. As many of you have begin amassing collections, we can begin to see what will be scalable for the system across all future Weapon types.

3) What's next for the Capacity?
The first order of iteration is to make the experience of 'going over' Capacity more forgiving for you to make a choice of what to do with your excess Riven(s). As mentioned in point 1, right now you are locked to make a choice to immediately dissolve one. We are looking at ways to improve this demand on immediacy. The next order of iteration is how to allow collection growth without impacting the performance of our databases over time. This is something we're still undecided on as we're still measuring collections, but we're happy the demand is there.

Thank you - stay tuned for updates. We'll likely be discussing in Friday's Devstream too!

 

 

as an added functionality concerning riven mods and their capacity: how about the possibility to transmute 2/3/4 riven mods into one new random veiled riven mod? obiviously not allowing transmuting rivens with nonrivens to prevent giant explosion ;-)

edit: *cough* as others have already proposed in this thread apparently, which i of course totally checked before posting myself *cough*
 

 

Edited by MarshallBanana0815

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On 12/5/2016 at 4:51 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
There are many reasons we started with a 15 Riven Mod Capacity, but the most important for future Riven conversations is the database impact storing Riven Mods has. As many of you have begin amassing collections, we can begin to see what will be scalable for the system across all future Weapon types.

I have a genuine question related to Rebecca's explanation:

I understand that each Riven mod is unique, and therefore requires its own db entry, unlike the other stackable, standardized mods. However, couldn't the same be said about each weapon/frame that each player owns?

Since each weapon can be augmented individually in many ways (Forma combinations, Exilus, Potato, Lens), and we can own multiples of each in various configurations, is each one not getting a unique identifier in the database? If you were to consider the number of available permutations of one single weapon due to Forma configuration alone, each weapon owned might as well be considered as unique an entry as a Riven mod's entry. As far as I am aware, there is no upper limit to the number of weapons/frames that one can own.

I was under the impression that Warframe slots and weapon slots were sold for platinum to offset the costs of technical considerations/limitations, and am genuinely curious as to whether the same approach for Rivens is applicable.

While I realize that many of the players who struggle with trading would be very upset at the idea, I would nonetheless gladly pay 20-50p or even 100p to the Market so that I could run the Sortie without having to either--

a). sell/destroy one of the mods that I don't wish to, or

b). run the risk of having to dismantle a fresh Veiled Mod drop

 

Just a couple of days ago, I was given a veiled Riven mod as a reward when I already had 15/15. Since I haven't had adequate time to farm for Kuva/credits to experiment with the mods that I have, I was forced to dismantle the Veiled one, and I was given a pathetic 28 (iirc) Endo.

This has created a situation in which I would literally rather not play the content than be forced to dismantle what is arguably the most in-demand commodity for nothing in return.

Edited by Sushi_Desires
clarify
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15 hours ago, Ace_Kayo said:

Wait wait... WHAT?!? So each mod has its own string? Gez, I knew the systems in place couldn't support these mods by a game-play standpoint (no auction hall, etc), but that's crazy... Each mod has its own unique line of code stored on the database? Surely there is a way to streamline things, like for starters give the same modifiers for stat percentages to cut down unneeded unique data.

Yeah, basic data structures. I think they teach it in highschool programming.

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8 minutes ago, Sushi_Desires said:

many ways (Forma combinations, Exilus, Potato, Lens), and we can own multiples of each in various configurations, is each one not getting a unique identifier in the database?

Damn good question.

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On 12/6/2016 at 0:28 AM, Imaru said:

The reason the stats are random is to encourage build variability.

If they were all the same (all Sybaris Riven mods are the same in your example) then they become no different from a standard mod. If the stats they have are random but the numbers are fixed, people would just reroll until they get the perfect set of stats. Having their stats and the values of those stats completely random is part of why Rivens exist in the first place, and removing that would just make them into another normal mod. 

The problem is, they don't work as intended. No one run "random" riven rolls. Everyone rolling until they get "the roll" where are stats they need. More or less, if you choose 5 players with riven soma, i will guarantee some of them will have crit chance or crit damage on it. Only in different variation (+ 50% +130% etc).

Edited by JustSneaky
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I have been thinking about the nature of riven mods since they came out and I am not sure if these have been discussed internally already but here it is:

1- The nature of Rivens, by nature, is random. That's the source of the performance issues. The difference between 10,000 rank 0 vitality mods and 2 randomly generated Soma Riven might be small, but those vitality mods don't go anywhere unless they are modified (unless they are upgraded but even then, only 10 values to deal with) Riven mods have to be stored until a deletion process is initiated (being sold or turned into endo)

I am wondering if the Devs have considered the following changes:

 

Have Rivens occupy their own unique slot, similar to exilus. Have it drain energy instead of adding to it like a stance. 

Having hard numbers for percentage based values (-+ 25/50/75/100/etc) for things like damage, multishot etc..

Have Rivens be a class restrictive, not gun restrictive mod for example:

         - Rifles can roll (damage, multishot, elemental)

         - Shotguns can roll (damage, multishot, fire rate, spread)

         - This makes rivens less restrictive, but also gives each weapon class a set identity. This can also be expanded upon by placing weapons into several tiers

                   -God Tier weapons (value range for rolls is lower)

                   -Crap Tier weapons (value range is much higher)

Instead of hard numbers that encourage power creep, maybe roll weapon characteristics from a pool:

     - Elite Damage increase

     - headshots recover energy

     - rifles that are fired continously deal more damage but increase in recoil

     - shotgun pellet impact has a chance to knockdown

     - headshots reduce cooldown/increase duration of abilities

 

They could use something similar to the division where each gun can roll for certain perks. this is synergistic with the suggestions of class restrictive rivens. each weapon class can only roll certain perks, damage percentage etc. 

 

From a space perspective this looks a lot cleaner. now I am generalizing but in theory, you only need:

1 table for weapons (or 4 tables for each weapon class if using class restrictions)

1 table for weapon characteristics (damage, multishot, elemental damage)

1 table for weapon perks 

1 table (maybe) for the hard coded numerical values

No need for crazy naming conventions. just name it rifle riven or something. 

 

 

Edited by Phatz
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Okay, so we've established that Rivens are basically arbitrarily-random mods that suffer escalating costs to reroll them despite the fact that rerolling doesn't necessarily provide increasing benefit and can indeed make a mod worse.  We've established that Rivens can have patently-impossible or near-impossible unveiling conditions, requiring you to game or even exploit the system mechanics to pull them off.  Worst of all, we've established that Riven mods are poorly coded for storage and thus a cap on how many you have was instituted to save DE's servers the strain of handling them.

I am asking this as a serious, straightforward question: at what point was this system considered successful enough for implementation?

From what I've seen of them, Rivens have failed unilaterally at every point along their design and have not reached any design goals stated by DE.  They do not encourage the use of non-meta weapons, because nobody wants Rivens for non-meta weapons.  Even with Riven Disposition being a thing, a casual look at trade chat will reveal what weapons people want Rivens for - Tonkor, Simulor, Soma, Boltor.  The very essence of meta weaponry.  They are not guaranteed to be worth their capacity - they have capacity costs similar to Primed Mods and an MR-lock as well that can go up to MR16, but a Riven with -damage or -multishot can potentially make a weapon incapable of being used as a weapon - something no other mod in the game can do, and for good reason.

"But just reroll it" you might say.  Well, sure, you can reroll it - but you aren't guaranteed to get a better one.  You're almost certainly not going to get one that's good enough to lift a non-meta weapon into viable status (the entire stated purpose of Riven mods) unless you have God's own luck.  There's no rhyme or reason between their capacity costs and MR-locks and their power.  It's possible for a Riven to increase stats on a weapon that the weapon doesn't even have, resulting in a more-or-less wasted modifier.

With this much arbitrary randomness, and the ever-escalating costs of rerolling, you're eventually going to get to the point where you can't, in good conscience, reroll it any further.  Then what do you do?  Trade it?  Nobody buys Rivens with 5+ rerolls on them, unless they are A). godly and B). for a meta weapon, at which point you should be using them yourself.  Dissolve it?  It's worth maybe 30 endo - there are silver mods worth more.  Sell it?  It's worth a similarly-pitiful amount of credits.

There is nothing satisfying about Riven mods, except winning the Riven lottery and getting an awesome one.  Given that these things are now allegedly the most common Sortie reward, that's more possible, but still the Warframe equivalent of getting a jackpot on a rigged slot machine.  Why should the hardest content currently available in the game reward you with mods that can render a weapon actually useless?

TL;DR - Please save your storage resources, and take Riven mods back to the drawing board.  A few sanity checks in the RNG to ensure that these mods start at being "worth the effort of getting and unveiling one" and get more awesome from there would be a good start.  Using algorithms with limited variables to generate the mods so that they can be stored more efficiently (and reduce the overall randomness at the same time, win-win) would allow the cap on them can be relaxed or removed.  These two changes, alone, would be all you need to make the Riven mod system a lot more bearable.

Edited by Arkvold
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On 12/5/2016 at 3:51 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
There are many reasons we started with a 15 Riven Mod Capacity, but the most important for future Riven conversations is the database impact storing Riven Mods has. As many of you have begin amassing collections, we can begin to see what will be scalable for the system across all future Weapon types.

The Database impact (especially storage) is a very good reason why the turnover system of Riven mods need to be changed.

With the limited capacity players need to be able to cycle out Rivens. Yes many players will default to working toward Rivens for Meta weapons, which is why people like me have been complaining about the methodology behind using Rivens as the "buff" for off-Meta weapons.

Riven's should be using a Craftable system to burn normal Star Chart Resources, and allow players to shift Rivens to different weapons.

  • Cap Re-roll Kuva costs at the 40th or 45th reroll
  • Allow Transmutation of 4 Riven Mods into 1 NEW Masked Riven.
  • Use Star Chart resources as part of the Stat Rolling process to bias results.
  • Rivens should have a BASE stat-line, modified by the Disposition of the individual weapon (not class or family)
    • Use numeric values internally.
    • This allows finer adjustment of high end "meta" weapons, while allowing lower end non-meta weapons in the Family to have better Riven stats.
    • Disposition becomes a new Stat line for Weapons, to be modifed by DE based on current usage or comparable performance to newer "meta" weapons.
  • OR use Star Chart resources to change the Weapon
    • Lock Rivens to very specifically named weapons (Braton Prime != Braton Vandal)
    • Changes within a Weapon family cost less.
    • Changes to a different Weapon family cost more.
    • Changes to a different category of Weapon cost even more.
    • Use Ducats and Forma as part of change to weapons that are Vaulted or out of circulation.

If we are going to have Storage Space and Database issues, we need the system to be able to refine, control, and direct the limited Rivens we can use. We also need this kind of system so we can transition our collection of Rivens over time, and have the space to TRY other weapons without large scale wasted effort. This includes the ability to slow transition back to a prior configuration if we didn't find the new state fun or interesting. 

The example of the system already in the game would be Syndicates and being able to switch to opposed Syndicates over time.

Another example is cycling out Warframes and Weapons in the Slot Limited equipment space.

  • If I'm a newer player, with only 2 Warframe Slots, I have to build and cycle out my Warframes any time I want use/try something new.
    • This costs time, farming the Blue Prints and Resources
    • Has a touch of RNG, in getting the part and resource drops
    • Has build time in the foundry
  • I'm a less new player and am cycling "Mastery fodder"
    • I spend time framing Resources for the BPs
    • I spend time Ranking up the weapon to try it out
    • I decide if I like it or not.
      • If I like it I may spend Plat for the Slot to keep it around
      • Otherwise I cycle it out and reuse the Slot for a New weapon.

I start with Excal(1). Then Pickup Rhino(2) as my second Frame. I then get access to Frost(2), and sell off the Rhino(2). I get Valkyr(1), and sell Excal(1). I don't like Valkyr(1), sell her, and get again Rhino(1). I now have Rhino(1) and Frost(2). This whole process burning resources and play time to exercise control of what I have for my limited Slots.

This is the direction you should be taking Riven Mods, especially with Storage and Database constraints. You're pitching Rivens as method for Long Time players to work on Improving non-meta weaker weapons. You're current system doesn't support this. We (the players) need some control over the stat generation, we need some way of shifting Rivens to other weapons or cycling them out (through a Transmutation grinder). Disposition adjustments should be handled WHEN Equipping, not at Stat generation.

Getting all this together allows Players to slowly *slosh* back and forth from one weapon type to another as an "end game" rolling state.

 

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If the issue is storage it really should be more standardized. As many have said, just make things like the crit always the same, only effected by disposition instead of randomized per mod. It's not like this suddenly removes the 70 rerolls on riven mods, because getting the right type of stats is equally hard. Things like cutting out the MR requirements being random too.

There's no need for as many random variables as there is. And if we're getting into secondaries, melees, shotguns, and potentially Warframe rivens, that's like... x5 higher cap necessary to be at all reasonable, which I'm guessing isn't desirable with the storage? 

I agree with people saying we should be able to combine 4 rivens to create a new one, or something along those lines. It's so hard to trade some of the worse rivens, but just turning them into nothing but Endo is an awful deal. Not to mention the slot limit just promotes never keeping off meta rivens anyways, just medium tier at best. But if space is the issue I guess there's no way around that, it just is what it is.

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while riven mods may be another nail in warframes cofin if they are going to exist it would be nice if riven mods for weapons with the strong discriptor didnt have any penalties then the next catagory had a 50% or lower chance of penalties and those in the weakest catagory had a 50% chance or higher of having a penalty.

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7 hours ago, Sushi_Desires said:

I have a genuine question related to Rebecca's explanation:

I understand that each Riven mod is unique, and therefore requires its own db entry, unlike the other stackable, standardized mods. However, couldn't the same be said about each weapon/frame that each player owns?

Since each weapon can be augmented individually in many ways (Forma combinations, Exilus, Potato, Lens), and we can own multiples of each in various configurations, is each one not getting a unique identifier in the database? If you were to consider the number of available permutations of one single weapon due to Forma configuration alone, each weapon owned might as well be considered as unique an entry as a Riven mod's entry. As far as I am aware, there is no upper limit to the number of weapons/frames that one can own.

I was under the impression that Warframe slots and weapon slots were sold for platinum to offset the costs of technical considerations/limitations, and am genuinely curious as to whether the same approach for Rivens is applicable.

While I realize that many of the players who struggle with trading would be very upset at the idea, I would nonetheless gladly pay 20-50p or even 100p to the Market so that I could run the Sortie without having to either--

a). sell/destroy one of the mods that I don't wish to, or

b). run the risk of having to dismantle a fresh Veiled Mod drop

 

Just a couple of days ago, I was given a veiled Riven mod as a reward when I already had 15/15. Since I haven't had adequate time to farm for Kuva/credits to experiment with the mods that I have, I was forced to dismantle the Veiled one, and I was given a pathetic 28 (iirc) Endo.

This has created a situation in which I would literally rather not play the content than be forced to dismantle what is arguably the most in-demand commodity for nothing in return.

If I understand how DE runs their databases, no, every Warframe and how it works technically won't require it's own entry. To an extent. Warframes, mods, colors, attachments, forma, capacity, all of that, has an assigned number. What your Warframe is, what color it is, the mods, polarities, forma, animations, and pretty much anything else related, can probably be confined down to a string of numbers, maybe 100-150 characters long. These numbers are then interpreted on the client side, so that the client knows that mod # 1553 is Ammo Drum, and apply's that to your Warframe. From a storage standpoint, for a game this size, that's nothing. However, Riven mods need unique identifiers to know which one is which, and randomly generate stats, so they needs to be stored completely separately, on top of knowing which account it belongs to, then it needs to store all of the stats of the mod, the reroll count, and the name. That's like creating a new mod 15 times for each account. This is a huge amount. I'm pretty sure DE just wants to feel out how much it affects the databases first, because they still have yet to add more weapon types to the system. I'm assuming when that's done, they will assess raising the cap, or keeping it where it is.

Sorry for the nerdy rant, I like databases.

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When will we be able to color each part of our warframe separately?

Could we please have a third sigil slot that is on our helmet?

Please buff Machete and Machete Wraith.

It would be cool if we could have our liset's appearance as part of our warframe's loadout, 
so we can have matching warframes and ships at all times.

Any chance for a Prisma Machete sold by the Void Trader soon?

Any chance we'll have Syndicate cosmetic skins and/or helmets one day?

Detron got a Void Trader variant, will Brakk be getting one too?

Will Machete receive a Augment mod or buff?
It's currently the weakest weapon in the game, and could use some love.

Will there be Vandal skins for Warframes?
I like the designs of the Vandal weapons, 
but they don't really match any of the warframes.
Would be cool if their colors where changeable, 
or at least there where matching Warframe skins.

Will we ever be getting a male Grineer themed tank/combat warframe with tons of armor?
Hopefully with a Rocket Punch power.

Would be cool is there where optional secondary missions during your main mission.
Like, during a spy mission, a officer could spawn,
and you could go capture him.
If you fail or choose not to do the optimal mission you don't fail your main mission,
it's just a chance at getting extra affinity,
and something to freshen up the game-play a little.

Would be cool for each Relay to get their own Bar where the Void Trader could go.
(he's always talking about wanting you to come to parties he's throwing.)

Would be cool of the Relays could have an Arcade, 
where you can play the different mini games like Happy Zephyr and Wyrmius.

Would be cool if the Relays could have a fighting pit where anyone in the relay can fight each other.

Also, could we get a smaller Kubrow body type?
I want to make a tiny dog, but even the smallest one isn't small enough.

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You really need to standardize the stats. If it has a certain stat it needs to be the same no matter where it lies on the mod stat order.

Honestly, Riven mods are a bad idea from the get go with how they are implemented. Raw stats are uninteresting and they should provide abilities to weapons like syndicate mods or even Warframe like effects. This Riven make me run faster or immune to laser grids while holding the weapon out. No random stats and more utility, possibly an aura on the weapon while being held.

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15 Riven mods?? srsly?? i have taken just 3 and im glad one was for simulor for insta plats

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1 hour ago, Arkvold said:

Okay, so we've established that Rivens are basically arbitrarily-random mods that suffer escalating costs to reroll them despite the fact that rerolling doesn't necessarily provide increasing benefit and can indeed make a mod worse.  We've established that Rivens can have patently-impossible or near-impossible unveiling conditions, requiring you to game or even exploit the system mechanics to pull them off.  Worst of all, we've established that Riven mods are poorly coded for storage and thus a cap on how many you have was instituted to save DE's servers the strain of handling them.

I am asking this as a serious, straightforward question: at what point was this system considered successful enough for implementation?

From what I've seen of them, Rivens have failed unilaterally at every point along their design and have not reached any design goals stated by DE.  They do not encourage the use of non-meta weapons, because nobody wants Rivens for non-meta weapons.  Even with Riven Disposition being a thing, a casual look at trade chat will reveal what weapons people want Rivens for - Tonkor, Simulor, Soma, Boltor.  The very essence of meta weaponry.  They are not guaranteed to be worth their capacity - they have capacity costs similar to Primed Mods and an MR-lock as well that can go up to MR16, but a Riven with -damage or -multishot can potentially make a weapon incapable of being used as a weapon - something no other mod in the game can do, and for good reason.

"But just reroll it" you might say.  Well, sure, you can reroll it - but you aren't guaranteed to get a better one.  You're almost certainly not going to get one that's good enough to lift a non-meta weapon into viable status (the entire stated purpose of Riven mods) unless you have God's own luck.  There's no rhyme or reason between their capacity costs and MR-locks and their power.  It's possible for a Riven to increase stats on a weapon that the weapon doesn't even have, resulting in a more-or-less wasted modifier.

With this much arbitrary randomness, and the ever-escalating costs of rerolling, you're eventually going to get to the point where you can't, in good conscience, reroll it any further.  Then what do you do?  Trade it?  Nobody buys Rivens with 5+ rerolls on them, unless they are A). godly and B). for a meta weapon, at which point you should be using them yourself.  Dissolve it?  It's worth maybe 30 endo - there are silver mods worth more.  Sell it?  It's worth a similarly-pitiful amount of credits.

There is nothing satisfying about Riven mods, except winning the Riven lottery and getting an awesome one.  Given that these things are now allegedly the most common Sortie reward, that's more possible, but still the Warframe equivalent of getting a jackpot on a rigged slot machine.  Why should the hardest content currently available in the game reward you with mods that can render a weapon actually useless?

TL;DR - Please save your storage resources, and take Riven mods back to the drawing board.  A few sanity checks in the RNG to ensure that these mods start at being "worth the effort of getting and unveiling one" and get more awesome from there would be a good start.  Using algorithms with limited variables to generate the mods so that they can be stored more efficiently (and reduce the overall randomness at the same time, win-win) would allow the cap on them can be relaxed or removed.  These two changes, alone, would be all you need to make the Riven mod system a lot more bearable.

THIS! This should be set in stone on frontpage. I've come to this "riven" thing as blind to violin (our saying for not knowing anything) and all these points sums up perfectly my research. I would like to add probability to actually get a riven mod (for me 23 sorties, not a single one) Fact, that veild riven mods are working on trade channel as lottery tickets, so people buy them in bulk (50 each). The most ridicoulous thing i saw was "auction" of soma crit chance/ crit damage mod in another player Dojo. At least 50 people were there and bid on it. Price ended up over 2k. Sorry DE, but this is not what i signed up for 4 years ago.

Edited by JustSneaky
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