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The road to 15/15 [Spoiler] Mods.


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What about removing -Damage and -Multishot so we can reroll our rivens without the fear of getting what basically is a 'Try again, sucker' roll?

Honestly, the negative stats should only be the same negative stats we can find on Corrupted mods and they shouldnt go so high that make the entire mod useless.

Vile Acceleration only reduces damage by 15%, why rivens can reduce damage by 101%?
Why they can give a -80% multishot chance, making the weapon not shoot at all unless you put another multishot to counter it?
Why stuff that makes weapon unusable even are there? Flight speed, Crit chance, Crit damage, Damage, Multishot, getting these negative stats isnt 'balancing' on most weapons, just a 'Haha gotta reroll this again, loser'
Why stuff like the Miter can still roll for Crit stats? Why elemental-only weapons can still roll for IPS stats?

What about letting us sell Rivens for 50%-75% of the Kuva we used on it?
What about letting us fuse 2 rivens into a new, veiled riven?

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I have few more notices:

We have over 250 weapons ingame, and the Rifle only mods are released, Shotgun/Secondary/Melee has not been yet released. I'm asking if it is possible to dedicated 15 more slots for each of afore mentioned type of weapon? Because for 250(+more to come) weapons this is a bit too SMALL amount of mods to keep. Moreover, you are about (maybe) to change the system so we could transmute the mods  so we have to have extra capacity for that as well.

I kinda see where it's going: 

- Option 1 : Each MR starting from X would extend the Riven capacity to Y.

- Option 2 : Riven slot would cost X plat

- Option 3 : Option 1 + Option 2.

Platinum capacity extension would defeat the purpose of your not willing to upgrade the servers proper - this would be the cost of those to be upgraded from your end. So pls let us. I hate the Idea that I'm limited with the mods that are essential for some weapons.

Also pls let us dissolve the Rivens for Kuva ~ would be nice to have 1/2 kuva invested if it was rolled otherwise let it cost the basic amount of 1st roll e.g. 900 kuva.

Hope you implement AT LEAST some of this.

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On 05/12/2016 at 11:07 PM, KIREEK said:

Can't DE increase the size of said database to store the contents of riven mods?

The size of a database isn't necessarily the problem. Storage is fairly cheap these days.

What often slows a database down are the relationships between all the pieces of data. Depending on how they store riven mods, the relationships may be simple or complex. Unfortunately most people's experience of structured data is something they've done in Excel, which is great for visualising simple data sets and even allows simple relationship between sets of data (with the LOOKUP function). Most people don't get to see the face-melting inner workings of a sharded, replicating system with hundreds of tables, b-tree indices and foreign keys.

The question is "how complex is a riven mod in the database"? How many tables do you have to join together to reconstruct a given riven?

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On 6.12.2016 at 0:11 AM, Azamagon said:

Would it help with data storage if:

1) Mods didn't have a SPECIFIC MR-requirement, but rather scaled with your MR instead (within the same scaling, lowest benefit at MR8, highest at MR16)
+
2) A specific stat is no longer completely random, even when said stat is on the same weapon and with the same MR-rank?
(Example: Currently, a MR16 Riven mod for Panthera with basedamage can give say, +180% at max rank, or +215% at max rank, all based on luck. If these were always the same, a Panthera Riven when you are MR16 would ALWAYS give, say, 215%, could that reduce data storage?)
+
3) There was a specific rule for their stats rather than either 2 or 3 positive stats, and MAYBE 1 negative stat? Why not make them all give 3 positive stats and 1 negative?
+
4) You took away some stat-possibilities (like critstats on weapons like  Miter/Panthera and negative basedamage/multishot)
 

I like that Idea! Making limitation of possibilities by creating an algorithm. Here is my idea to make each weapon Unique!

Let's have a specific implicit which is typical for a weapon, a unique one. Like here is an Example for a Lanka Mod:

Lanka: 'This Weapon has maximum Punchthrough on charged shots' (invisible Stat = Max possible punchthrough stat - 100 to make sure, that adding more punchthrough this weapon doesn't backfire xoxoxoxoxo)

This implicit is on every Lanka Riven mod, then lets give it 1 Positive explicit and 1 negative explicit. Those explicits have each 2 possible types of fixed value (without the Disposition- Multipliers)

A low type like 'mini' or 'I' and a high value like 'maxi' or 'II'.

So the prefix (positive) 'Mini-Crita' or 'Cita I' for Crit chance (let's say base 50%) and suffix (negative) 'Maxi-Mag' or 'Mag II' for Recoil (lets say 30%).

Now lets talk about Dispositions: Theres Faint, Neutral and Strong. Let's say we make multipliers: Faint: 0,75 on prefix and 1,25 on suffix, Neutral 1.0 on both pre-and Suffix and Strong: 1.25 on prefix, 0,75 on suffix. Since Lanka has Normal Disposition: Crita I (<Base Value of Crita I> * <Disposition Multiplier>) doesnt change at all and so doesn't Mag II, because the multiplier is always 1.

OR: we take out dispositions and balance every weapon indiviually on weekly basis. Since Lanka is Lanka let's create an invidual multiplier in the database: (1 +/- (Lanka-Multiplier, + for Prefix and - for Suffix))

In the end generate FULL Modcardpictures on that behalf (through an automatism):

The Mod Card Name: <Weapon Name> <Prefix (I or II (for min or max))> <Suffix (I or II (for min or max))>

Mod Card Cost: '18'  '<Weapon Name> individual Polarity'

Mod Card shown Picture: Individual Weapon Picture from <Weapon Name>

1st Stat: The implicit (<Weapon Name>)

2nd Stat: Prefix positive Stat (<Prefix Base Value> * <Weapon Name Disposition>)

3rd Stat: Suffix negative Stat (<Suffix Base Value> * <Weapon Name Disposition>)

Mod Mastery Rank: <Weapon Name> restrictions

So we got several databases, one for every weapon(implicit+Mastery restrictions+Polarity for Rivenmods+Mod Card shown Picture and one for every possible Affix or 1 for Pre and 1 for suffix.

The downside of this might be, some cards would be shown incorrectly, since the text doesn't always fit in. It's important to add the the Weapon Database a font size, to ajust it. Like for the implicit only.

 >>Then, the most important part, the Challenges! I personally love them!

Let's create a Challenge Pre- andd Suffix.

Like: 'Riven Mod -' <Challenge Prefix> + <Challenge Suffix >

Full Name of the Challenge 'Unveiled Riven Mod - Slow Execute Nullifier Challenge'

Challenge Suffix: 'Execute'

Card Text for that Suffix: Use Finisher Moves on <X> <Enemytype> (Nullifier) :

  'Execute ' + '<X>' + ' ' + '<Targetname>' + <'s' (if X>1)> + '.' // if this Card has no Prefix. Identical Text without the dot at the end if this mod has a Prefix.

While <X> is in relevance with <Targetname> so it's in the same Database listed together

Challenge Prefix if existant: 'Slow'

Card Text for that Prefix: ',while you have a' + (' '// 'n ' If the first letter of Key Name is = 'A' or 'E' or 'O' or 'U' or 'I') + <Key Name> + ' equipped.'

Full Card text: Execute 10 Nullifier, while you have a Hobbled Dragon Key equipped.

 

 

 

 

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Well, the impact on databases + the orientation of the system is a nice way to justifi the cap, but, BUT, there is still a big problem with the sistem: gettin a riven you actualy want/can use.

Im a mr 22 player, i have tried almost every weapon in game(WERE IS MY WAR, GOD DAM, MORE THAN 3 ENCOUNTERS WITH STALKER PER WEEK...) and i know what weapons i like, what dont, and what would give then a shot. Since TWW i got 7 rivens and buy 2. The 7 rivens i got are for grinlok, paracyst, zhuge, vulklok , opticor, tonkor and harpak. Of that weapons, paracyst and zhuge and harpak would never use, i dont like those weapons, not a bit, and lukcy for me i did sell the harpak one and im stuck with 2 useles mods. The vulklok one specially is one that i think i would never use and gave it a shot, pretty happy with it, no much complais. The opticor and tonkor are reroled a bit and got then in my builds, but i dont use those weapons much, even if i like then they are not my favourite.

The real problem comes when i get to the 2 i buy : one for lanka and the other for zarr. I love these 2 weapons, much more than others, and i have a greak problem with then: once i get to around 20-25 rerolls on each(lanka is at 19 and zarr at 12) i would love to dicht those 2 mods in favor of a fresh riven for those weapons, even if it means losing the already good-to-me/ok stats in favor of a "perfect roll", at least perfect for me, but i cant and its mostly fair if the way of gettin rivens wasnt so painfull. In the last sorties i did get useles things for me like the F*** NITAIN, i dont need more, i got a stockpile of 180+, endo is kinda ok it its the 4k, a catalist bp? thats bad, considering that i have 20+ of each, and about 10+ exilus. 

Could we get some kind of recicling riven mods? like transmuting 4 rivens into a fresh one(it was sugested on the subredit). I would never use the zhuge of the paracyst, sorry but no way, and i dont think i can sell/trade then.

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On 12/5/2016 at 5:51 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hey all,

I'll be using Spoiler tags in titles for just a bit longer until our Console family gets to see their first Riven Mods, although I wouldn't be surprised if the cat was way out of the bag by now.

You have likely noticed that there is a 15 Mod inventory Capacity on Riven Mods. We expect that some of you have started to reach this Capacity. This post aims to explain:

1) What happens right now when you reach Riven Capacity?
2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
3) What's next for the Capacity?

Read on to get these questions answered!

1) What happens right now when you reach Riven Capacity?

Right now if you are in the scenario of receiving a 16th Veiled Riven via Sortie, you're sent back to your Landing Craft and locked into making a choice of which Riven to Dissolve. It can be any Riven, even the Veiled one you just received. We don't love that it locks you into this decision immediately, which is why we're making this post to explain what's next.

2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
There are many reasons we started with a 15 Riven Mod Capacity, but the most important for future Riven conversations is the database impact storing Riven Mods has. As many of you have begin amassing collections, we can begin to see what will be scalable for the system across all future Weapon types.

3) What's next for the Capacity?
The first order of iteration is to make the experience of 'going over' Capacity more forgiving for you to make a choice of what to do with your excess Riven(s). As mentioned in point 1, right now you are locked to make a choice to immediately dissolve one. We are looking at ways to improve this demand on immediacy. The next order of iteration is how to allow collection growth without impacting the performance of our databases over time. This is something we're still undecided on as we're still measuring collections, but we're happy the demand is there.

Thank you - stay tuned for updates. We'll likely be discussing in Friday's Devstream too!

 

 

Here is an idea. Make capacity multiplicative with Mastery level.

 

Kinda like this: (Mastery Level*5) rounded up, this should give MR 20 100 lvls and the current highest, MR 23 will get 115. 

This seems fair for a minimum... not sure what your system can handle though.

So MR 5s, who are the minimum rank to get into sorties now will get 25 (a generous increase) With +5 per level.

 

Let me know if something like that (and probably more) could work?.

 

]\'[

Edited by MokutoBunshi
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Transmutation works on Riven mods, right?

Anyhow.. about the database issue: if this really is an issue, go with the most obvious and simple solution and allow unlimited numbers of Veiled Riven. Won't eat up any database storage :P Then when someone "cracks them open", force them to make a decision... like keeping it and dissolve another, or just dissolve it.
Of course, there's a catch... you'll have to redesign the challenge system a Riven mod needs to uncover... like generating random challenges based on a Seed and Day, or generating and keeping track of a limited number of challenges. The question here is if one wants to keep the current system intact, or accept a change that only allows one single Veiled Riven mod per mission to be active... (btw, dissolving a Riven could re-roll the currently active challenge.. so if there's one you can't do, dissolve it like you did before)

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52 minutes ago, fred101j said:

follow what you wanna do I wanna make it 15+mr rank

 

I wanna make it +5 per MR rank. At +15 per MR rank that's a minimum of 15*5+15= 80 for MR 5 and a current max of 350 for MR 23. I am not sure anyone will get that many rivens but maybe i'm wrong.

Please look at my formula above :)

 

]\'[

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On 12/5/2016 at 4:51 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hey all,

...

You have likely noticed that there is a 15 Mod inventory Capacity on Riven Mods. We expect that some of you have started to reach this Capacity. This post aims to explain:

...

 

 

So, why not expand your system capacity?!

I mean...

...to pay for that cost, and since you want to keep Warframe free as oppose to subscription, you can itemize or account (accounting-wise) for that cost by allowing us to buy the additional slots. And with fair-pricing, our payments for those slots should help offset the cost!!

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just keep in mind that as long as Riven Capacity is limited, Rivens will encourage Players to focus on making Overpowered Equipment more Overpowered - by forcing them to choose between fun and efficiency.

if you want Rivens to encourage Players to focus on what they find fun, you can't make them make that choice.

 

just like for tens of thousands of years before, necessity is the driving force for most improvements. so if backend "can't" handle doing things the way they should be - then change that so it can.

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7 minutes ago, taiiat said:

just keep in mind that as long as Riven Capacity is limited, Rivens will encourage Players to focus on making Overpowered Equipment more Overpowered - by forcing them to choose between fun and efficiency.

if you want Rivens to encourage Players to focus on what they find fun, you can't make them make that choice.

 

just like for tens of thousands of years before, necessity is the driving force for most improvements. so if backend "can't" handle doing things the way they should be - then change that so it can.

It's not all doom and gloom. I've got a very nice riven that finally gives me an excuse to bring the Karak Wraith (more of an anti-meta weapon) to sortie-level content.

 

But I agree: When there's limited room, you go with weapons you like, and most people like meta. Either something should change in the backend or Rivens themselves should be redone to be less expensive. I have two (pick one) suggestions for how to go forward:

 

1. Instead of rolling random stats, create 5-10 'presets' per weapon. Rerolling simply picks a random preset. Each preset would contain a mix of damage and utility, and come in two flavors: Stable (reasonable stat increases), and Unstable (more extreme stat increases, but also contains negative stats) From a backend perspective, each variant would simply be a unique mod, treated exactly like a normal one as far as the database is concerned.

2. Rework the system a bit.

  • Limit 1 riven per weapon family
  • Disposition would be based primarily on the weapon's performance, with popularity being a secondary consideration (but not ignored)
  • For a low kuva cost, we roll for a random selection of 2-3 mods to be drawn from. If 3, we also roll a random debuff. Low in this instance would be on the order of 250-500, either static or increasing with a cap.
  • For a much higher kuva cost, we get to pick the mods ourselves. For each mod we include, the Kuva cost to 'forge' the riven increases, based on what mods you pick (Serration would cost more than Ammo Drum, for instance). If you include a 3rd mod, you will be required to pick a debuff to be applied as the 4th stat. And to be clear, the cost would be very high. Think base 10k to choose, plus another 5-10k for a mod like Serration.
  • The mod stats will be modified by the riven disposition. On a really weak weapon, +165% Damage can become +200% potentially, while on something like the Scrubulor, it would be something like +70%.

I get that this would remove a fair amount of the RNG from the system, but when the purpose is to encourage using those bottom-of-the-barrel non-meta weapons, you need a system that makes it reasonable to do so, and in such a way that you aren't going to feel stupid for not focusing your resources on the meta.

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Again, there are intermediate solutions to this "full RNG then at 'much higher kuva cost', full-choice". You can make a stat kept per reroll, or a stat definitely removed from all rerolls per reroll. So "control on the RNG".

 

We can understand it's not fun to simply choose all your mods (however this issue is linked with the current Damage-mods & Damage-system issues). In your case, there is just a set amount of kuva to spend before you can fully choose all your mods. What is fun is having some control and some parts uncontrolled. There is adrenaline at rerolling by luck some nice riven mod. The problem is that RNG here rarely satisfies us, so having more control would be an improvement.

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On 5/12/2016 at 11:51 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
There are many reasons we started with a 15 Riven Mod Capacity, but the most important for future Riven conversations is the database impact storing Riven Mods has. As many of you have begin amassing collections, we can begin to see what will be scalable for the system across all future Weapon types.

Is it not possible to store the mods values merged on the weapon values of the database? Assuming that the name of the mod is automatically generated (I think it is) Maybe still with a limit for mods that player is not using at moment. I noticed weapons have yet space for riven permision..It should forces the player to use a mod in a weapon to free 1 slot for one new riven mod he could bring. Then working as weapon slots at the end. Assuming this saves space by blending the data into the weapon database, along with other improvements it may work. I dont know If it could be for warframe but it is a suggestion for development. :nerd:
Selling some things for :platinum: and buying a space station, or something like that, to store our collections. Too.

Thanks a lot for the info about Rivens

Peace.

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Can we PLEASE have some sort of Riven mod transmutation for them so we can actually reroll them? I've managed to only naturally pull garbage ones for sentinel weapons and weapons that no one wants. It would be preferable to actually get something out of these useless ones since we can't even get kuva out of them at this point.

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On 5.12.2016 at 11:51 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
There are many reasons we started with a 15 Riven Mod Capacity, but the most important for future Riven conversations is the database impact storing Riven Mods has. As many of you have begin amassing collections, we can begin to see what will be scalable for the system across all future Weapon types.

Does anyone seriously believe this?

I guess guys at GGG hired a bunch of programming wizards to be able to store billions of randomly generated items with their properties.

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