Don't sugarcoat the relic system.

[(PSN)xxSHEPERDxx]

Put relic type packs on the marketplace and in the faction offering lists. There's still RNG, but it's bottle necked to one set type. (axi/meso/lith/herpderp/etc)

[Laidain]

On 12/9/2016 at 9:05 AM, (PS4)lhbuch said:

I guess the there are two main problems in the system:

 

1) You have RNG to get the relics, RNG to get traces and then RNG to get the part you want.

2) Lots of players have the sensation that the drop rates seem much lower than expected. I did 11 radiant only runs for the Cernos Prime Lower Limb and didnt get it. If you think about the chance of this happening is extremely low! On my 11th run, I met a guy who was on his 13th run...

I think that the the ideal scenario would be to have the old and new system together somehow, having the best of the two worlds together.

Were you running the exact same radiant relics with other people?Usually if you do that it should take no more than 4 runs to get the rare prime part on the relic drop table. 

[Caelward]

The cycling of Relics is hurting my experience of the system as well. Until I realized that cycling old relics out for new relics with new reward tables was a thing I had no problems with it. I mean, with Tower keys, they didn't change the keys, they changed what the mission would drop, so you could save up keys for the next primes. The current system prevents this. The abundance of key variations muddies the issue further by making it hard to figure out and remember the what and where of everything.

I still remember the painful memories of endless Void Tower defense missions. As such I'm still happier with the process of actually using the relics, being able to choose keys, upgrade keys and oh hey, my buddy there got a better drop I'll go and grab that yeah cool, thanks man.

Hunting for the new relics though? Oh no, RNG is back, and it's angry. So far it's been a test getting getting the relics for the latest stuff. A friend and I have been hunting various relics for the last two weeks for Nekros prime. It's a bit older, yeah, but neither of us really had many relics for Nekros. Yesterday I finally broke down and purchased the Nekros Prime bp from the trade channel to just get it over with. We'd found all the other parts, but we only found a handful of the proper relics, and they didn't give the bp up.

To be fair, we've been getting relics for other new stuff of course. The full Galantine Prime set showed up right quick for instance, and we've found parts for pretty much all the new stuff. But that Nekros bp, it just wasn't coming out.

I wonder if they could do something to break up the relic drop tables. I've been finding it confusing to know where's best to go. And sometimes the 'best place' to go simply has so many other relics in the reward tables that it feels like lady luck is having her fun with you. :(

... I still like the new system better though. We maybe be farming as much as before, but at least now I'm not banished to the void forever looking for that tower defense C item. I get to see the sights, look around for treasure not bolted down, introduce bullets to new peoples. We've got some variation to keep things a little less stale.

[TessaraVejgan]

11 hours ago, JustSneaky said:

I remember nice sentence. 

"Before you wait 20 minutes for 100%, now you wait 5 minutes for 10%".

Of course it's not true, the drop rate was +- same, but the point is, in old void you farm for 20 minutes and you know, that this number marked chance to get item you wanted. Didn't get? nevermind, wait another twenty minute and see. It was the feeling of assurance "every 20 minutes i got a item" to keep you coming back or staying longer. Now what, you grab relic, go in to mission wait 5 minutes..you are S#&$ out of luck, better next time. Proceed to farm new relic, repeat. Like they said  "before 1 prime part 20 minutes, now 1 part 8 hours"..at best. Sure, there was very small chance to get two or more prime parts in row, but it was possible. Everyone can achieve it, but you have to stay longer. Now, it's +- impossible. Not only you and your whole squad have to own more than one specific relic, you also have to be in squad, which will stay longer or go next mission.

 

Before there was one RNG, get the part from void, because getting to rotation C was affected by you, players not RNG. (No, getting keys was not hard, because keys drop like fly's. Especially if you no life Draco, and to be fair everyone no life Draco). That's the reason why they change it to Relic system. Everyone have stockpiles of them in inventory. Also one could host the rest of the squad, for how much time they wanted.

 

Now you have two RNG. To get a relic and to get an item. Yes, we now have bigger chance to get an item we want and also choose which we want, but tell me, do you think it worthed for another layer of RNG? If you are the only one in squad with that specific relic, you will have same chance to get an item as in rotation C in old void, only now you have another layer of RNG.

You are talking nonsense. Here I have to spend 5-10min to see if I get the part I wanted before it was 20min. I have no idea where people pulled out this 8hr but then again it doesn't really matter.

 

8 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

It's not what I think. It's what I feel.

You didn't read my post. I know it's long and everything... But still.

Syndicate packs.

How I'm annoyed by that topic coming up again and again... Let's do the math

20k standing for a pack of 3 random relics. 1 of them will be Neo or Axi. Those 3 relics are 3 missions with 10% chance to get a rare (if you radiant every one of them).

less then 10% chance you get an Axi you need or a Neo you need.

At MR22 I have 23k daily standing. That's about a pack and a quarter (as I went for 4 syndicates as once).

An interception syndicate mission gives 5k standing. And that's the most you can get now.

that's 1/4 of a relic pack

Now tell me, please. How would that be more efficient than Excavation?

Medallions are not only time consuming. They are supposed to be that buffer that I am supposed to use when something new comes up. If I use them constantly, there wouldn't be much to use then?

But the icing on the relic cake:

Key pack was worth the same 20k standing.

How this simple thing eludes all those people who say key farming was difficult but in the next sentence say they get relics galore I will never understand.

Nor how it eludes them that by the nature of relics you need 4 times more of them than you needed capture or MD keys if you play in the squad or 4 (which is always recommended by relic advocates).

But the most depressing thing is... you needed on average 2 times less void keys for endless missions if you wanted to play them solo for 1 full rotation. Because to get to rotation C you went through 2 A rotations and a B rotation, and got on average 2 prime parts from a 20 waves defense or 20 minutes survival.

And

Have you seen recruiting chat? Do you understand how many relics there are now? Have you tried to get a group for any of the vaulted relics? I really don't know how it's possible to ignore a small fact that we have link functionality in the chat and search functionality in relic refinement now. Because there are so many relics, you can't possibly keep in mind what is where.

But it gets better. Did you know that vaulted relics don't have links?

There are so many relic types already, people miss a chance to select one in endless from time to time. Because 16 seconds is not enough to browse 2 pages of relics for one era with refined relics bloating the list even more...

No lets not do the math. Its pointless and I don't personally care about percentages. Syndicate relic packs are great for getting relics no matter your claims. Key packs were 25k standing. Yes I have seen rec chat and it is possible to link vaulted relics. I don't do endless fissures so I'll take your word for it.

Ok people it was fun but I already spent more time in this topic than it deserves and I think I have started to repeat myself so I'll just leave a few final words and leave it at that. While I'll give you that there are some issues with the fissure system it is vastly superior than what we had before. I spend less time grinding for relics and parts than before leaving more time for other stuff.

[JustSneaky]

1 hour ago, TessaraVejgan said:

You are talking nonsense. Here I have to spend 5-10min to see if I get the part I wanted before it was 20min. I have no idea where people pulled out this 8hr but then again it doesn't really matter.

I don't know if you suffering from Stockholm or denier syndrome, but i will quote it for you.

 

1 hour ago, TessaraVejgan said:

"before 1 prime part 20 minutes, now 1 part 8 hours"..at best. Sure, there was very small chance to get two or more prime parts in row, but it was possible. Everyone can achieve it, but you have to stay longer. Now, it's +- impossible. Not only you and your whole squad have to own more than one specific relic, you also have to be in squad, which will stay longer or go next mission.

 

The acquiring of more than one specific relic take 8 hours. Before you went to void for 40 minutes and you had two chances. Now you have to go with two relics, which can take from 1 to infinity rotation C, to get ONE of them.

 

But ok, lets be fair and take benefit of the doubt. You drop two same relics in two rotation C in row. That's 40 minute. Now you have to find party who have two same relics as you (raddded) (+- 10 minute) go to mission and open these relics (10-20 minutes, depend on mission type). 

Overall i took in best possible circumstances (Chance like 0.01%) 1 hour, to have chance (ergo another layer of RNG) to obtain two prime parts. And if i count also required traces, that's another one hour. Overall you spend 2 hours opening two relics.

Old void in every circumstances (Chance 100%) will took 40 minutes to "open two relics"

Edited December 11, 2016 by JustSneaky

[Dreddeth]

"Feedback..."

"Feedback" never changes...

[(PSN)Silverback73]

I'm a guy with a career and a family who is a consistent but casual player.

The new system for me is far less enjoyable for me because if you don't turn it into a job and stay ahead of the curve and sacrifice an unrealistic amount of time farming Relics and Syndicate Rep and then grind 4-man radiant squads within the first week, the game very quickly becomes:

Waitframe: the lobby search for Radiant squads. <----This is a game-experience-destroying process of the highest order and as soon as anyone has to endure it the supposed superior drop % go out the window and the ugly strategy behind getting you to spend plat becomes vividly and painfully self-evident...like "root canal" self-evident.

My humble 2 cents.

 

[JustSneaky]

After 16 hours. Literally go F*** yourself DE with this system. I don't give a S#&amp;&#036; anymore if i get banned or not, this game become gold mine, promoting whale payment model long time ago. This is why indie company should never receive large sums of money..No man sky was clear example and now this bullcrap. Greed consumes all no matter what intention that person have.

[Flirk2]

6 hours ago, TessaraVejgan said:

No lets not do the math. Its pointless and I don't personally care about percentages.

Well, then you don't have an argument. Because if math is pointless, then what is left? Feelings? But I discussed my feelings a lot in those posts. All you have to say for that is you think the new system is better.

Well, I guess for some people their feelings about something will always take precedence to other people feelings about that thing.

But then you can't expect people to take your claims seriously on your feelings alone.

6 hours ago, TessaraVejgan said:

Syndicate relic packs are great for getting relics no matter your claims. Key packs were 25k standing.

Sure, 25 and 20 is a big difference. (syndicate missions got a nerf from 9k per defense/interception to 5k as well) When you need at least 4 times more relics than keys to get the same amount of items.

And of course my claims don't matter! How could they, really? It's only your claims that matter...

6 hours ago, TessaraVejgan said:

Yes I have seen rec chat and it is possible to link vaulted relics.

Do try and link Lith S3 relic, please, or any Meso N relic. Do that, and I'll eat my hat. I'll even make myself an eatable hat just for that...

So no, you can not link vaulted relics. But thank you for bringing evidence of your competence in the issue.

6 hours ago, TessaraVejgan said:

While I'll give you that there are some issues with the fissure system it is vastly superior than what we had before. I spend less time grinding for relics and parts than before leaving more time for other stuff.

Well, good for you.

I wish for you to continue being able to say that.

Oh, and I just wonder, what ''other stuff'' is there to do?

Edited December 11, 2016 by Flirk2

[Golmihr]

On 9/12/2016 at 5:50 PM, TeaBegging said:

^{_{Don't sugarcoat the relic system.}}

"Don't like what I don't like."

 

Got Ember and Frost prime pretty fast. Then ran some trace runs with throw away relic and ended up with some more new stuff from other players. That I can always just join a random group and end up getting stuff from relics I don't have is what i like most about the relic system.

[Azrael]

On 12/9/2016 at 0:05 PM, (PS4)lhbuch said:

I did 11 radiant only runs for the Cernos Prime Lower Limb and didnt get it. If you think about the chance of this happening is extremely low!

It has a 31.3% chance of happening. So not that "extremely low" after all. The chance of doing 13 runs without getting it is 25.4%.

 

On 12/9/2016 at 0:04 PM, pauli133 said:

Don't sugarcoat the void key system. It was still a roll of the dice as to whether or not you got the key you wanted from a given rotation on a given mission - 'keys on demand' is straight up fantasy.

 All the missions for prime parts were run on the same soulcrushing tileset. Waiting 20 minutes, only for the game to crap on you... yet again.

The old void key system was killing. the. game. Week after week, I watched friends just... not show up, because the prime part treadmill was poisoning the entire game for them. Since SotR, I've seen them come back, and enjoy the variety of missions being run.

Was it an unpleasant change for people used to sitting back and doing nothing but slowly metering out the enormous stockpile of ancient void keys they had? Sure. People willing to run hours and hours of T3 Survival for that one part they were after, though, aren't the target market. Balance has returned, and everyone is now motivated to get out there and play across the star chart.

The real kicker: with the new system I get more parts, faster, for less work and less stress.

I love this. I totally agree with you. People keep acting like it was so easy to get what you wanted in the old system, but it's MUCH easier now. Also don't forget all those times when you take some garbage relic just looking for ducats and traces and somebody's PA relic drops that uncommon or rare part. Nekros and valkyr were much easier to farm than, say, Saryn was (those T1MD's!).

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, JustSneaky said:

Greed consumes all no matter what intention that person have.

"I had some weird luck, and got 4 *uncommon* parts at the same time. Therefore DE must be getting greedy! RIOT!!!"

 

 

21 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

When you need at least 4 times more relics than keys to get the same amount of items.

Is your goal to get a bunch of garbage? Or to get the part you're looking for? Keys were better for getting a lot of random parts + a bunch of orokin cells, some cores, and a few keys you already have 200 of. Relics are better for getting that one part you need.

[JustSneaky]

1 hour ago, Azrael said:

I had some weird luck, and got 4 *uncommon* parts at the same time. Therefore DE must be getting greedy! RIOT!!!"

No, DE is getting greedy if i have to @(*()&#036; farm for 16 hours one relic and then suffer another F*** up from RNG. Just for "BUY BUY BUY , we don't care anymore just BUY BUY BUY (for pl). Did you read that chat? This player was on 4th run and still nothing. That's at least day and half gametime WASTED! This game become the biggest time sink, that i'we ever seen. And as  a Vanila Wow players (ergo a big timesink), this frightening me.

 

Simply put if you are not paying customer, we don't care about you anymore you are just red number in our spreadsheets. Sincerely-DE.

Edited December 11, 2016 by JustSneaky

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, JustSneaky said:

Simply put if you are not paying customer, we don't care about you anymore you are just red number in our spreadsheets. Sincerely-DE.

I think a lot of us farmed all or almost all of the PA stuff without buying anything. The only part I ended up getting without farming it was one cernos part, and I got that from a friend who get two of them in public fissure missions, without even using the relic it drops from. I AM a paying customer, and I have no regrets about that. But I didn't buy PA, and I still have all the new stuff. When Nekros came out I farmed everything in one day. Some of the relics are hard to get, but it's still better than running 150 T1MD's and still not getting that Saryn helmet.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

14 hours ago, Pratigious said:

Were you running the exact same radiant relics with other people?Usually if you do that it should take no more than 4 runs to get the rare prime part on the relic drop table. 

Yeah we were all running the same radiant relics. It is the only time it took me so long to get something.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

3 hours ago, Azrael said:

It has a 31.3% chance of happening. So not that "extremely low" after all. The chance of doing 13 runs without getting it is 25.4%.

 

I love this. I totally agree with you. People keep acting like it was so easy to get what you wanted in the old system, but it's MUCH easier now. Also don't forget all those times when you take some garbage relic just looking for ducats and traces and somebody's PA relic drops that uncommon or rare part. Nekros and valkyr were much easier to farm than, say, Saryn was (those T1MD's!).

Isnt it aprox 1,2%? Chance to not happen first time AND second time AND third time ............ AND eleventh time =  68,7% x 68,7% x 68,7% ....... = 1,2%

 

This is the chance of doing 11 times and not getting it.

[Borg1611]

3 hours ago, Golmihr said:

"Don't like what I don't like."

 

Got Ember and Frost prime pretty fast. Then ran some trace runs with throw away relic and ended up with some more new stuff from other players. That I can always just join a random group and end up getting stuff from relics I don't have is what i like most about the relic system.

For every one of you there's 50 other people who have spent hours a day farming for them and still don't have them yet. 

It's not as big of a deal for primes that are going to be there for a long while. Those you don't even have to farm relics for. You can just spam fissure captures of each relic type you need for them and eventually get them via other people's relics in public games. For un-vaulted things that are only going to be around a month... that's only a month to get relics. Some people are bringing them into public games, but not as many as bring in Valk/Nekros/Vauban relics and there never will be as many as our supply is only around for a short time. 

People aren't going to continue getting those relics and eventually use them as trash relics once they no longer need them. You'd have to get extremely lucky to get them via public games either now or after they go back in the vault. This is different than something like Valk relics that people are already using as their trash relics and will continue to do so as they are still getting them even after they no longer need them.

If you don't spend several hours farming relics yourself for un-vaulted things, you're tempting fate and may end up not getting them. Then your only option would be to buy them, possibly for the next year or more before they're un-vaulted again.

The relic system has its flaws and those flaws are emphasized by the also flawed vault system.

I wish they'd at least let us transmute extra relics of a type into other random relics of that same type (and exclude the 3 we used to transmute as the possible result). That would at least let us re-roll the extra relics we don't need into possibly the ones that we do. That on top of giving us extra relic drops the longer we stay in an endless so there's an option besides C and out or AA and out etc would be nice. 

[rudman88]

Here are my feedback and suggestions :

1. Let us farm void traces in the void.

Hunting void traces only in fissure come on.

why need to limit it when we still need to grind ?

 

OR

 

2. Let all item in the list have equal chances

-> WE need to grind the relics

-> OK fine but need to pray to RNG. Are you kidding?

-> even after making it radiant, still need to pray to RNG

-> so lets say is in rotation C and there are 6 other relics in rotation c

-> so to get what i want  is 1/6.

-> each relic drop 6 items = 1/6 x 1/6 = 1/36

dats assuming each and every1 have equal chance

 

Feedback

with our current system,

chances for you to get rare item is :

1/6 x 1/6 x 0.2 = 1/180

if you make it radiant = 1/ 45

but because to make it radiant, you need to play 10 rounds

so is actually 1/450

 

 

 

[doomagent13]

I don't get the hate for T3S; it usually got fun within 15-20 minutes. (T1S rot C is a completely different story...  Just reaching 20 minutes was hard enough; I don't think I ever went for 40...)

Relics do provide a better chance than non-endless keys did for a specific part, but are by no means better overall. (Endless keys, even for rot C, depend on how long you stay on average.)  The problem is that, to have a guaranteed CHANCE at something, you must first acquire the correct relic.  That mostly was not a problem with the keys.  With the limited number of possible keys, the rewards shifted around enough that at least most keys remained moderately relevant.  I can't say the same for most of the original relics, a decent number of which I still have 50+ of.  Aside from the ones that have a Forma as a common drop, they are mostly useless. (Baro hasn't had enough new stuff for a while for any substantial ducat farming to be necessary, and Formas usually come up often enough without specifically picking relics for them.)

I can understand wanting people to not have everything they need to get a new prime immediately upon release, but always requiring the farming of a completely new set of relics goes too far.  A better option might have been to initially leave one or two slots per relic undetermined, with a large and/or regularly shifting pool to pick from if it is rolled.  This undetermined slot could later be filled with a specific part before eventually being retired, which could be used to reduce the number of new relics needed every time a new group of primes are released and/or vaulted.

[GrimAtrament]

nope relic system is better then the old void any day of the week.

if anything your sugarcoating the old void key system.

i was farmming mag prime Bp before the relic system came ou. could not get her bp for half the entire month.

relic system came out got it in 2 tries.

also you can HOLD onto vaulted relics that makes them very useful if you did not manage to get the prime you wanted before it got vaulted. you know some people here have jobs and lives and can't be on warframe 24/7

 

also if you cant figure out what to do with your old relics then idk how you get your plat.

theirs always players looking for nyx prime nova prime soma prime etc.

and rare stuff on old relics you dont need MAKE GOOD DUCATS :O

or hell use them for Void trace farmming in endlesss

another thingt he relic system has over the old void is YOU DONT HAVE TO stay in one spot all day trying to get one thing!!

you dont suffer from burn out as much ether. old void system you would run about 5 60 min survival or 50 void exterminates only to not get it then you would leave warframe for a week in pure frustration

you can multitask if a rift is on a spy you can play the spy mission to get mods that are only available on that spy mission.

also im sure you must have forgot how SATURATED THE OLD VOID TOWERS WERE de contently stuffed stuff into T3 Def and survival Rotation c so there was always a chance of getting 20 things you did not want

i like the new relic system

its not perfect but I NEVER want to see the old void system again

never again

Edited December 11, 2016 by hazerddex

[Azrael]

2 hours ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

Isnt it aprox 1,2%? Chance to not happen first time AND second time AND third time ............ AND eleventh time =  68,7% x 68,7% x 68,7% ....... = 1,2%

 

This is the chance of doing 11 times and not getting it.

Are you looking for a rare part or an uncommon one? A radiant relic has a 10% chance to drop the rare part. So the chance of not getting a rare part in 11 radiant relics is 0.9^11, or 0.9*0.9*0.9...= .313 or about 31.3% chance.

[TheLexiConArtist]

21 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Are you looking for a rare part or an uncommon one? A radiant relic has a 10% chance to drop the rare part. So the chance of not getting a rare part in 11 radiant relics is 0.9^11, or 0.9*0.9*0.9...= .313 or about 31.3% chance.

Getting a rare part on a Radiant Relic: 10% chance (90% non-acquisition)

Getting a rare part on a 4-man squad of the same Radiant Relic: 34.39% chance (90%^4 = 65.61% non-acquisition)

Getting a rare part on 11 runs of a 4-man squad of Radiant Relics: ~99.03% chance (65.61%^11 = 0.969% non-acquisition)

 

 

I haven't even tried to get any relics from the Unvaulting yet. I'm too sick of grinding relics after the 78-active-gameplay-hour fiasco trying to get relics for Valkyr Prime and related gear.

Edited December 11, 2016 by EDYinnit

[Golmihr]

3 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

For every one of you there's 50 other people who have spent hours a day farming for them and still don't have them yet. 

 

There's a pretty big step from sharing anecdotes to then making up numbers.

[Azrael]

7 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Getting a rare part on 11 runs of a 4-man squad of Radiant Relics: ~99.03% chance (65.61%^11 = 0.969% non-acquisition)

Hold on now, I thought you meant you personally used 11 radiants and didn't get a rare drop. 11 runs with 4 radiant relics each run without a rare is 44 radiant relics, which is not at all what I thought you meant. Your math is correct, and that's... really unlucky. Wow. My sympathies.

[Hyohakusha]

You get a list showing you that you can get something specific. This, at face value, appears to be an improvement, a more linear path to acquire what you want. However, in order to get that item, you have to farm it, from a random list that will only become more diluted as time goes on. It's the appearance of less grind with the addition of a secondary RNG wall.

One key equaled however many items you were willing to spend the time on. Relics are 1:1, always. And considering that more common items will naturally become worthless, many times you aren't actually getting anything at all, beyond a forma BP.

Then there's the refinement system and the new endless system. 4-8 relics to get a hundred traces. A hundred traces per chosen relic to get a "better" chance at getting what you want. If you want to do 4 rotations in a defense, assuming 25 traces per trace run, which is impossible, your spending 20 relics minimum, for four CHANCES at getting what you really want. Just like how we'd go for 2 hours for the same chances at getting an item. But that only took one key, not TWENTY. If you can't see this, you are blind. "Year of less grind"