Don't sugarcoat the relic system.

[-InV-igo95862]

On 12/9/2016 at 9:28 AM, StinkyPygmy said:

Exactly. The old system is actually more or less the same except the new system allows us to play with the odds AND we aren't forced to spend years in the void.

Sure, now you need to spend ages on Xini or Io.

[DEATHLOK]

On 12/11/2016 at 11:45 AM, Azrael said:

It has a 31.3% chance of happening. So not that "extremely low" after all. The chance of doing 13 runs without getting it is 25.4%.

 

I love this. I totally agree with you. People keep acting like it was so easy to get what you wanted in the old system, but it's MUCH easier now. Also don't forget all those times when you take some garbage relic just looking for ducats and traces and somebody's PA relic drops that uncommon or rare part. Nekros and valkyr were much easier to farm than, say, Saryn was (those T1MD's!).

Bull. Now that the odds are posted at the wiki, everyone knows a single Radiant Relic has a 10% chance to get a Rare part. For any Rare parts, you'll have to get at least 10 copies for a decent chance at the part. You guys continue to take Fissure runs out of context by ignoring the farming required to get specific Relics in the first place.

GO FARM AXI V1 AND POST BACK HOW MANY YOU GET PER HOUR.

I play more than most, and I've gotten exactly one AXI V1 relic in the past six months. Multiply those odds by the odds of getting a Rare, and throw in the time spent farming Void Traces, before waxing on and on about how easy the new system is.

I guarantee the guys claiming they get an entire new Prime Warframe a couple of hours after release aren't farming parts. They're buying the gear outright and buying necessary Relics from other players.

Edited December 13, 2016 by DEATHLOK

[Azrael]

4 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

I guarantee the guys claiming they get an entire new Prime Warframe a couple of hours after release aren't farming parts. They're buying the gear outright and buying necessary Relics from other players.

Nope. I farmed nekros prime in one day, along with all his gear. Didn't buy anything. I mean, I DID buy the accessories, but that's irrelevant. Stop calling bull on everything people say, you're basically calling people liars.

[MystMan]

 

• I farmed Rhino Prime Access in 3.5 months after release
• I farmed Loki Prime Access in 4 months after release
• I bought Nyx Prime Access cause I felt like it
• I farmed Volt Prime Access in 2.5 months after release
• I farmed Ash Prime Access in 3 months after release
• I farmed Trinity Prime Access in 2 months after release
• I farmed Saryn Prime Access in 1.5 months after release
• The void/relic transition happened during the last (3rd) month of Vauban Prime Access. I got the last 2 missing rare parts in a week thanks to the relic system.
• I farmed Nekros Prime Access in 3 weeks after release
• I farmed Valkyr Prime Access in 3 weeks after release

 

Yeah, I'm siding with the system that gets me the stuff in less than 1 month without that godawful monotonous slow-paced Rotation C Void-fatiguing torturous waste of time.

[TheLexiConArtist]

12 hours ago, Azrael said:

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Why are you multiplying the drop chances by 0.02? Where on earth are you getting a .2% chance per relic? That makes no sense at all.

 

The correct way to state what you are saying is "there is a 65.14% chance of getting at least one rare part in ten radiant relics." But that still means that you will need, on average, ten radiant relics to get a rare part. There's no "in practice," the average number of runs needed is 10. Sometimes you'll get it in 1. Sometimes it will take 20. But if you run enough tests the average will get closer and closer to 10. That's how probability works. I have no idea what you mean by "how probabilities work is relative," but it sounds like a meaningless phrase that you're using to say "well sometimes it will take more than 10 runs" which of course is true. But remember, this has nothing to do with DE. DE didn't create math or decide how probability should work, they just set the numbers. Sometimes I think people want DE to just give them a part for free if they get unlucky enough.

The chance for a given relic (see Axi V5 for prime example _{pun intended}) to drop can be as abysmally low as 2%.

2% drop chance of relic * 10% drop chance from running said relic = 0.2% chance of being able to go get the item you want, per relic dropped. Which people continuously handwave in favour of the odds from an acquired relic, which suit their arguments much better.

 

Probability is relative when applied to a non-exhaustive set, hence calculations being applied to find P(0) instead of P(1), because P(>1) is nonzero.

We're not positing "continue for X runs, count drops" (wherein P(0) is balanced out by P(1) + P(>1) to the 'on-paper' average); we're positing "continue until (1) drop, count X (runs)".

To get the individual drop, your probability is not simply 1 / (drop rate * attempts) at all times, as shown; as drop rate decreases, finding equivalent odds requires additional attempts.

100 attempts on 1% drop rate is not equivalent acquisition odds with 10 attempts on 10% drop rate for the arbitrary individual still at 0 drops.

 

If you're still looking as you go for your tenth run on 10% (0.9 ^ 10 -> P(0) = 0.3486), then your counterpart in terrible luck running on 1% odds would be already partway into their 105th run (0.99 ^ 104 -> P(0) = 0.351; 0.99 ^ 105 -> P(0) = 0.3480).

That arbitrary individual within the range of P(0) doesn't care about the other arbitrary individual who is within P(2) or better. They care about how many tries they are putting in until they enter P(1).

 

 

I suppose that's a very technical way of explaining that true-random gets more and more unreliable and polarising as you layer it and reduce odds (each layer being a multiplier to probability, as the 0.2%odds-per-relic-drop example).

Case in point:

P(>1) @MystMan

P(<1) @DEATHLOK

Edited December 13, 2016 by EDYinnit

[Educated_Beast]

I just wish there was a way to automatically match relics.  It is to time consuming to create radiant shares.  First you have to find the group in the chat (which is confusing to remember if I want a4, m2, etc. For whatever parts you need).  

 

Then you send message and already full by time you figured out you have relic and it is radiant, and someone doing that mission.  

 

If you say forget that and host own, your going to spend 5-10 minutes finding 3 others with relic needed.  The longer you wait to start farming from initial prime release, the longer you wait to find a game.  

 

Then when you get that group, it falls apart after first run because not everyone has multiples.

 

You have to start farming immediately the new primes because after a few weeks, very few people running those missions (already have what need).

 

Sure you can just jump in a match with your relic, but now your no longer relic sharing and reduce your chances.  Most people run intact relics in public fast matches going for ducats or forma BP.  

 

That's my problem with new system.

[DEATHLOK]

8 hours ago, Azrael said:

Nope. I farmed nekros prime in one day, along with all his gear. Didn't buy anything. I mean, I DID buy the accessories, but that's irrelevant. Stop calling bull on everything people say, you're basically calling people liars.

Sounds like you have special farming abilities. Can you go farm AXI V1 Relics and tell us how many you get in an hour? Or twenty-four? It will give everyone else something to shoot for.

[DEATHLOK]

5 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

2% drop chance of relic * 10% drop chance from running said relic = 0.2% chance of being able to go get the item you want, per relic dropped. Which people continuously handwave in favour of the odds from an acquired relic, which suit their arguments much better.

What are you saying?

"2% drop chance of relic." An Intact Relic has a 2% chance to drop a Rare part. Is that what you're saying? Or specific Relics have a 2% chance to be awarded during relevant Relic farming missions?

"10% drop chance from running said relic...." No idea. Radiant Relics have a 10% chance of dropping a Rare part. I'm not understanding why you're multiplying these numbers, as I'm uncertain to what each number refers.

My argument, which likely offended you, is that the odds facing anyone without a tall stack of necessary Relics already on hand (which will happen with the release of every new Prime item) will be far lower than either 2% or 10%, as players must also factor in the odds for winning necessary Relics. How long do you have to play Xini to get a single copy of the Relic you want? What are the odds the desired Relic will be awarded each cycle? These odds can be used to estimate the time required to build anything, in terms of missions played. I doubt it is a disservice to suggest that you will likely need 10 copies of a Radiant Relic for a solid chance at the Rare part you need, and even that is no guarantee. And I can't imagine why anyone without an ulterior motive would not place those odds in the context of the larger equation, which includes the odds for or against getting those Relics in the first place. You could even throw in statistics for Void Traces.

Your .2% may be taking all this into effect. I can't tell.

[Azrael]

30 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

What are you saying?

"2% drop chance of relic." An Intact Relic has a 2% chance to drop a Rare part. Is that what you're saying? Or specific Relics have a 2% chance to be awarded during relevant Relic farming missions?

He's saying that every time you get a relic - whatever it may be - you have a 2% chance to get the rare part you want from it. It's not really a valid argument, because different relics have different drop rates and people want more than just one rare part. As soon as you want multiple parts spread across multiple relics your chances of getting something you want increase dramatically. But that's what he's saying, he's multiplying the rare part chance by the chance for a randomly dropped relic to be the relic you want.

[Loswaith]

10 hours ago, MystMan said:

 

• I farmed Rhino Prime Access in 3.5 months after release
• I farmed Loki Prime Access in 4 months after release
• I bought Nyx Prime Access cause I felt like it
• I farmed Volt Prime Access in 2.5 months after release
• I farmed Ash Prime Access in 3 months after release
• I farmed Trinity Prime Access in 2 months after release
• I farmed Saryn Prime Access in 1.5 months after release
• The void/relic transition happened during the last (3rd) month of Vauban Prime Access. I got the last 2 missing rare parts in a week thanks to the relic system.
• I farmed Nekros Prime Access in 3 weeks after release
• I farmed Valkyr Prime Access in 3 weeks after release

 

Yeah, I'm siding with the system that gets me the stuff in less than 1 month without that godawful monotonous slow-paced Rotation C Void-fatiguing torturous waste of time.

All this tells us is you possibly got lucky in the new system, and possibly unlucky in the old. It is entirely anecdotal.

To make accurate data of any of it you have to show how you got them (group composition, key acquisition, relics/traces used, missions undertaken, length of missions played, time spent playing overall and a bunch more factors).

This is why we use the mathematics of it all to show whether it is better or worse, because how your luck played out is no real indication at all.

[Borg1611]

After some more farming, I still have yet to get a single Axi E1 relic from Hieracon or Kala-azar. I got one or two I believe days ago from syndicate packs, but Axi E1 relics are still evading me from actual missions.  

I've finished farming every other piece of Frost and Ember prime (still missing a bunch of weapon parts, but I'm not sure I care enough to really finish them, especially since I'm already sick of the farm for the frames). All I need is that damn BP. /sigh

At one point I went 3 Kala missions in a row without getting a single axi relic of any kind from B or C. Even though it's overall slower for axi relics than Hieracon, I had been doing that so I could daze out more and put in less effort compared to having to pay attention in Hieracon. Mind numbing grind is mind numbing. 

I wish at the very least they'd remove endo and mods from Hieracon/Kala (and the other maps in the same categories) B and C rotations. Axi relics are just a nightmare compared to the rest (and Meso relics weren't exactly an exciting farm either).  

[MystMan]

6 hours ago, Loswaith said:

All this tells us is you possibly got lucky in the new system, and possibly unlucky in the old. It is entirely anecdotal.

To make accurate data of any of it you have to show how you got them (group composition, key acquisition, relics/traces used, missions undertaken, length of missions played, time spent playing overall and a bunch more factors).

This is why we use the mathematics of it all to show whether it is better or worse, because how your luck played out is no real indication at all.

That's 2 years of playing Void with a frustrating drop chance we have no control over  vs  1 month of playing Relics with a drop chance we can control. "Luck" doesn't sound like a strong argument against the test of time.

I did not include farming for the specific key/relics. They are equally the same RNG, I had no problems getting the void keys/ relics I needed. I farm them or trade for them. I see people complain about "Axi ## is a myth!", People said the same about certain Void keys.
Only the drop chance of a needed Prime part matters here for me.

 

Void key:
Let's say you play Warframe 2 hours a day.  That means you have 6 chances to get the rotation C part you want. (20 min each). On the side, you might also get other Ducat fodder, forma blue prints, credit caches, orokin cells, and fusion cores. (Those last three were terrible garbage drops everybody hated. You can easily get those outside of Void). You spent 2 hours of your gaming day playing the same mission on the same tile set fighting the same enemies using the same selective meta Warframes for endless missions.  That's depressingly boring for many of us.

Relics:
With the new relic system, I can wait until a fissure is available for the relic type I need on a non-endless mission which can be rushed (capture, rescue, exterminate) and in those 2 hours I will have like about 15 chances to get the prime part AND get ducat fodder, forma blue print and void traces. (no garbage drops this time). The traces stack up quite fast by rushing these missions. You spent 2 hours of your day playing a great variation of mission types on different tile sets fighting different enemies using any Warframe you want. Hurray for diversity!

 

And I'll let you in on a little secret:

I never farmed for Cernos Prime and Venka Prime. I got all their parts from pub runs.  PUB RUNS!
Now that we can drop in relic missions right away, I no longer have to waste time typing "H Ext T3" or  "LF Surv T4" and wait for answers in Recruit chat anymore. Contrary to popular belief, there are PLENTY of people running radiant relics on their own in pub sessions instead of looking for other players in Recruit chat. Some people even get rares from their intact relics (I got 3 that way myself).

I burned through what must've been like 60 random Meso/Neo/Axi relics this way but the fact remains that this was possible in such a short time thanks to the new system.

[DEATHLOK]

8 hours ago, Loswaith said:

All this tells us is you possibly got lucky in the new system, and possibly unlucky in the old. It is entirely anecdotal.

To make accurate data of any of it you have to show how you got them (group composition, key acquisition, relics/traces used, missions undertaken, length of missions played, time spent playing overall and a bunch more factors).

This is why we use the mathematics of it all to show whether it is better or worse, because how your luck played out is no real indication at all.

I want more math.

[(PSN)SageHeed]

Farming for the latest primes is way faster for me now, and I have more fun doing it, which I interpret as a better system over all.

[bubbabenali]

19 hours ago, MystMan said:

 

• I farmed Rhino Prime Access in 3.5 months after release
• I farmed Loki Prime Access in 4 months after release
• I bought Nyx Prime Access cause I felt like it
• I farmed Volt Prime Access in 2.5 months after release
• I farmed Ash Prime Access in 3 months after release
• I farmed Trinity Prime Access in 2 months after release
• I farmed Saryn Prime Access in 1.5 months after release
• The void/relic transition happened during the last (3rd) month of Vauban Prime Access. I got the last 2 missing rare parts in a week thanks to the relic system.
• I farmed Nekros Prime Access in 3 weeks after release
• I farmed Valkyr Prime Access in 3 weeks after release

 

Yeah, I'm siding with the system that gets me the stuff in less than 1 month without that godawful monotonous slow-paced Rotation C Void-fatiguing torturous waste of time.

Yeah, that's roughly my experience too.

I farmed void survivals for weeks for that last Ash part.

The day the relics hit in I got a whole set in less than two hours. And a Akstiletto prime set on top.

 

It has a reason why many prime sets lost that much of their trade chat value.

[DEATHLOK]

10 minutes ago, bubbabenali said:

The day the relics hit in I got a whole set in less than two hours. And a Akstiletto prime set on top.

Because you had an entire inventory of the necessary Relics to burn through.

When you do not have the Relics you need, it's a different story. It's more difficult to get specific Relics than it ever was to get specific Keys, outside trading with other players.

[TheLexiConArtist]

10 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

What are you saying?

"2% drop chance of relic." An Intact Relic has a 2% chance to drop a Rare part. Is that what you're saying? Or specific Relics have a 2% chance to be awarded during relevant Relic farming missions?

"10% drop chance from running said relic...." No idea. Radiant Relics have a 10% chance of dropping a Rare part. I'm not understanding why you're multiplying these numbers, as I'm uncertain to what each number refers.

My argument, which likely offended you, is that the odds facing anyone without a tall stack of necessary Relics already on hand (which will happen with the release of every new Prime item) will be far lower than either 2% or 10%, as players must also factor in the odds for winning necessary Relics. How long do you have to play Xini to get a single copy of the Relic you want? What are the odds the desired Relic will be awarded each cycle? These odds can be used to estimate the time required to build anything, in terms of missions played. I doubt it is a disservice to suggest that you will likely need 10 copies of a Radiant Relic for a solid chance at the Rare part you need, and even that is no guarantee. And I can't imagine why anyone without an ulterior motive would not place those odds in the context of the larger equation, which includes the odds for or against getting those Relics in the first place. You could even throw in statistics for Void Traces.

Your .2% may be taking all this into effect. I can't tell.

I mentioned you because you're the polarised example of the person who falls on the long odds - taking hours to get a relic, taking more than the 'average' time and attempts to get the part you needed. The 10% * 2% is, as I emphasised, a possible rate of acquisition of a specific rare part as interpreted from each relic you see dropped.

Basically I'm arguing the same thing. When the drop rate for the relic is 2%, you're not grinding the 10% chance a Radiant relic has to drop a rare. You're grinding 2% odds at rolling 10% odds, which multiplies them together. Sorry you thought I was decrying you, you just happened to be the first example of P(<1), the 'unlucky' ones, as I scrolled up.

_{Eight hours, by the way. Eight hours in Xini per relic.}

 

10 hours ago, Azrael said:

He's saying that every time you get a relic - whatever it may be - you have a 2% chance to get the rare part you want from it. It's not really a valid argument, because different relics have different drop rates and people want more than just one rare part. As soon as you want multiple parts spread across multiple relics your chances of getting something you want increase dramatically. But that's what he's saying, he's multiplying the rare part chance by the chance for a randomly dropped relic to be the relic you want.

It's not a valid argument because your strawman says so? I didn't say everyone in all circumstances has a 0.2% chance to get any desired item per relic drop.

I made my point, contextually, that any single part cannot be stated to have a 10% drop chance simply because that's the Radiant odds for a rare. Stating such is ignorant of relic acquisition, which can be as abysmally low as ~2%.

 

Take my personal experience with Axi V5 for example. I had enough Axi V4, Axi C1, Neo V4, Neo N4 and Neo A1 relics to get every other part while I was still in the middle of grinding on average eight hour intervals for Axi V5 drops. So the other parts were irrelevant to the grind, only the Valkyr Chassis mattered.

Therefore, my drop odds were not 10% to get the Valkyr Chassis, despite every Axi V5 I got becoming Radiant. The low rate of acquisition meant I was grinding 2% relic drop * 10% radiant drop; 0.2% chance (or 0.6878% with radshares) per ~13 minutes spent in Xini's single tile mission. That is not better than 2% per 20 minutes in Void Survival.

[Drago55577]

My main issue is how even map type is RNG. When the only type for an era I need is spy, I may as well just go farm more relics waiting for a survival/defense. The system could be better, it is in some ways, but in others it's just annoying.

Also, the fact that reactant isn't shared makes excavation much harder than it needs to be, especially if spawns decide to only go to one group of players, and not the other at the other extractor(s).

[bubbabenali]

7 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

Because you had an entire inventory of the necessary Relics to burn through.

When you do not have the Relics you need, it's a different story. It's more difficult to get specific Relics than it ever was to get specific Keys, outside trading with other players.

Actualy no, it took me 4 or 5 relics. I got quite an ammount of items from other players relics.

[Loswaith]

13 hours ago, MystMan said:

... I never farmed for Cernos Prime and Venka Prime. I got all their parts from pub runs.  PUB RUNS! ...

While I've never farmed for a single prime part and have just about everything pre-relics (I doubt the relics will change how I play much at all). I've just played the game with friends, clan/alliance mates and random groups from recruiting.  Though my experience isn't any more accurate than yours in saying that the grind is better or worse on the whole which is key to the entire experience being better or worse than a handful of peoples experience.

Sure that you can get drop in PUGs is a bonus and you would find few players that argue with that aspect.  However It will, in most cases give worse odds than being in an organised group.  It is little different than joining a random key mission was

Keep in mind with fewer identical relics, you have lower chances to get specific loot drops.

 

4 hours ago, bubbabenali said:

... I got quite an ammount of items from other players relics.

Sure you didn't have to farm those other relics but someone did, and because you didn't use the same relics you made the chances worse for the group.

 

Keep in mind for every radiant relic someone is using that they have played an average of 5-6 (but up to 17) other missions to get the traces to do so.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Loswaith

[MystMan]

14 hours ago, Loswaith said:

However It will, in most cases give worse odds than being in an organised group.  It is little different than joining a random key mission was

Keep in mind with fewer identical relics, you have lower chances to get specific loot drops.

Sure you didn't have to farm those other relics but someone did, and because you didn't use the same relics you made the chances worse for the group.

Keep in mind for every radiant relic someone is using that they have played an average of 5-6 (but up to 17) other missions to get the traces to do so.

Coulda woulda shoulda.  In the end, it's still RNG.   Statistics don't play that major a role in the end for everybody all the time. Plenty of people have done a dozen full rad group runs and not gotten anything they wanted. Ultimately the odds didn't help them apparently. I did the bare minimum and got it all in 3 weeks. We're all gambling when we use Void/Relics. At least with relics, we can gamble a whole lot quicker with better & filtered rewards. Weeks quicker instead of months.

What matters to me and those who prefer the relic system:

Is it fun and diverse?  Yes.  No more Void fatigue constantly being Frost in Void defense.
Are we given the choice to get through it quickly?  Yes.  No more spending all my Warframe playtime waiting between 20min/wave intervals to get to rotation C.
Are the rewards better?  Yes.  Guaranteed no more 3x Orokin Cells, credit caches and fusion cores. Now it's always only Primes and Forma BP.
Look at this bloated drop table endless Void missions had.
Look. At. Rotation. C.  Including the fusion core, that's one of nine random drop for every 20 min/wave of your time. Relics have a fixed 5 drops and nothing else, nothing more.

 

A lot of other complaints come from the change that old relics no longer refresh their drop tables with the new prime items after each new release like the old Void key system. Thus everybody has to farm new relics. This evens the playing ground that both old and new players have to farm for relics, together. Older players no longer have an unfair advantage so having them farm for relics as well enlarges the farming group.

And the old relics are far from "useless" like many mentioned (I have hundreds of them). They contain great plat sources in the form of vaulted prime parts. People are grateful when a Nyx/Mag/Boar/Nova/Soma Prime part pops up from my relic if nobody else got the rare prime they wanted from their relics. So while my pub runs don't have me equipped with a Axi C1 radiant, my vaulted relics will still be packing something very valuable.

Edited December 15, 2016 by MystMan
added a pic or else it didn't happen.

[TheLexiConArtist]

15 hours ago, MystMan said:

Coulda woulda shoulda.  In the end, it's still RNG.   Statistics don't play that major a role in the end for everybody all the time. Plenty of people have done a dozen full rad group runs and not gotten anything they wanted. Ultimately the odds didn't help them apparently. I did the bare minimum and got it all in 3 weeks. We're all gambling when we use Void/Relics. At least with relics, we can gamble a whole lot quicker with better & filtered rewards. Weeks quicker instead of months.

What matters to me and those who prefer the relic system:

Is it fun and diverse?  Yes.  No more Void fatigue constantly being Frost in Void defense.
Are we given the choice to get through it quickly?  Yes.  No more spending all my Warframe playtime waiting between 20min/wave intervals to get to rotation C.
Are the rewards better?  Yes.  Guaranteed no more 3x Orokin Cells, credit caches and fusion cores. Now it's always only Primes and Forma BP.
Look at this bloated drop table endless Void missions had.
Look. At. Rotation. C.  Including the fusion core, that's one of nine random drop for every 20 min/wave of your time. Relics have a fixed 5 drops and nothing else, nothing more.

Is it fun and diverse? No, you're pigeonholed into a set few tiles/missions just the same unless you allow your time investment to be magnified many times over in less efficient areas. See Xini/Hieracon.

Are we given the choice to get through it quickly? No. Because the grind is getting relics. Nobody cares that you can spend 5 minutes instead of 20 rolling the relic for the part you want when it takes 4 or even 8 hours to get the relic itself. Spending all your Warframe playtime waiting between intervals to get chances at chances of a drop, instead of spending it waiting between intervals of chances at the drop. Void anticipation, Relic trepidation.

Are the rewards better? Debatable. Turns out you get no prime parts, no Forma when the relic doesn't even drop. You also don't get rares other than what you are searching for when you do run the relic - it's either rare part you're trying to get, or common/uncommon, nearly worthless parts in comparison.

Look at the number of relics, and extrapolate that bloated drop table. Each has 5 potential drops. There are typically 8-9 active in an era at once. given that you have to get the relic for every single drop, that's 8 or 9 multiplied by those 5 options in each. 1 in 45 items every time you drop something? Turns out even at 5 minutes per run, that still beats out 1 in 9 per 20 minutes of the Void.

[NeonNemesis]

Everyone that I know that plays WF says that this system is easily worse than the old void.

Yeah in theory it should be better, but it has 3 freaking RNGs on it, the relic RNG, the Traces RNG and the Prime drop RNG, while the old one had 1 (don't even come with "must farm key as well", I still have over 70 of some types of relics which were converted from the keys, this not factoring how some keys were "accidentally" lost in the conversion).

My average of farming a prime acess in the old void was less than 2 weeks while having school. For Nekros acess in vacation with fissure cancer it was about 3 weeks, this one has yet to be completed. how long Valkyr acess was released? Nearly a month?

So less than 2 weeks<<<<<<<<almost 1 month?

Also, now I can't even run sentinels or Kubrows, I have to run a Smeeta unless I want 6 traces per mission. I can't even take the frame that I want, I have to run a Frost to protect the excavators and slow the enemies.

It's also funny how hieracon turned into a sort of Draco, yesterday my forma Cernos went from 0 to 30. Nice design in there DE you removed the optional draco and shoved a mandatory one.

Oh and I wanted to farm a Nekros chassis, well too bad everyone's hopping on Frost and Ember, sometimes you even have problems finding parties for the Valkyr access, it will be a hek of a fun when 2 or 3 more primes come out and you want to farm an older prime with a full radiant team, just like when I wanted that nikana blade and spent over an hour finding parties. 

[MystMan]

People keep bringing up the chances of getting wanted relics instead of trying to get specific rewards of the relic.  I am not mentioning that at all because this was no different than getting Void keys. Lots of RNG farming was still required to get specific Void keys. Or RNG in buying them from Syndicate packs. Farming for Keys/Relics has not changed. Honestly, people exaggerate on farming for Void/Relics like it's torture. Remember that you can trade them too, you know?  That's a thing. Or trade duplicate Prime parts. Some Prime parts have NEVER dropped for me in the old Void system, I got them by trading other duplciate rare Prime parts. If one rare is too elusive, try farming for one you already have, you may have better luck there and use that as trading goods. I recall doing this when Nova Prime was released.

Getting rewards from void/relics is where there has been major changes.

You have 10 Survival T3 keys
You want a specific drop from that bloated drop table. ->  that can take a long time to get it IF it drops at all using those 10 keys. Doesn't matter if you try 20min or a whole hour per key, depends how much time you have or are willing to spend playing those lengthy boring missions. Hence why it took many people months to get their desired drop. You were dependent on that single Void key for your reward, not 4 group relics where you get to weigh in which rewards is better for you (or exactly what you wanted).

You have 10 Neo Relics
You want a specific drop from a more limited drop table. -> If there is a rushable Neo fissure active, you can use up those 10 keys in one day. Hence why it takes many people a significantly much shorter time to get their drop. Don't forget, you get to choose rewards from other players, they may get better stuff than your relic's drop table.

Also, you don't HAVE to find 3 Radiant people if you want to get a rare part. Sure, the odds are better this way but.... we never had these odds in the old Void system to begin with. Nobody complained about this. We gambled one key at a time. Some people realize this and so sometimes you will see a lone Radiant relic user in pub games. They gamble that their key is all they need to win the prize. This is RNG at work: Four separate Void key runs have the same odds as 4 simultaneous radiant relics landing the winning Prime part. It's just that the latter is done in a shorter time. If all 4 radiant relics can fail, then the 4 separate Void keys can fail just equally as well. Heck, in all the Radiant runs I have done, I have never encountered 2-4 players getting the rare.  It's always only one person. (But it's usually zero people most of the time).

Stop obsessing about statistical chances, odds and yadda yadda so much too afraid to take chances and just brute-force your way through the RNG as quickly as possible. 

 

And I recall a lot of people constantly requesting for some sort of forced-keysharing in the past when duped by quitters who didn't keyshare their Void keys like they promised. Well?  They have been heard. With the relic system, you can't dupe people anymore since we can all see each other's relic and you will automatically use up your relic. Nobody brought up that change, nope let's only focus on small negatives and blow them out of proportion.

"Farming traces is RNG"

What?  Farming for primes / ducat fodder automatically awards us traces. I never run out of that stuff.  If you really want to farm it fast, pick a fissure mission like Capture/Rescue and play it solo without equipping a relic and rush it a bunch of times. You'll get those hundreds easily.

Edited December 15, 2016 by MystMan

[ashrah]

i like old system much more... relics are   incresed grind... i know that from first day they come out