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Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 3!


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3 hours ago, (PS4)TheRainbowTurt1e said:

Why not just have one universal "veiled riven mod". If you equipped this riven mod on a primary weapon and do the challenge you get a primary riven in return, if you equip the mod on a secondary and complete the challenge you get a secondary riven, so on so fourth.

This would be a really good way to strip out one of the layers of RNG. Riven mods are a bit of an onion of RNG and it would be very nice to at least give us some way to affect what we're getting. As it stands, it's looking like the addition of non-rifle rivens will make it:
RNG whether or not you get a Riven mod at all.
RNG for the type of Riven mod.
RNG for the specific weapon.
RNG for the Riven mod's stats.

And unlike real onions, cutting a bit out of this one won't make us cry.

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18 minutes ago, [DE]Drew said:

I've added additional information to the OP. We greatly appreciate those of you who have articulated your thoughts and concerns in a constructive way. 

Ok, the Kuva rerolls change looks pretty cool and definitely close to what the community asked for; like seriously, I'm impressed!

yes yeah house agree nodding

Edited by siralextraffo
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I am getting a feeling of perhaps that the design of Rivens are trying to go for Varient modifiers from games like Spiral Knights. In that game, as a player you could pay an npc to add random modifiers to a weapon, helmet, armor, or shield and while the modifiers were random, they could be locked in before the gamble for an additional cost. As other players have suggested, it might be better if these are to be replacements for our mandatory mods or to exist as true rewards to give players actual agency over the quality or at least usability of Riven mods if not their availability. Availability could be encouraged by token systems or by rewards for particular missions but if server structure is hampered by Rivens, perhaps it might have been better to utilize the design space in a manner that does not cause such strain or is rewarding to the player to own in such limited amounts. As the mods are random for the player in all respects, there is no creativity for the player but the design space for Rivens has creativity for the designers; it falls to the design team to make Rivens worthy of being the culmination of 2016.

As others have clearly said, Rivens are a polarizing element to the game, and honestly, I feel that its not a good path to tread as I said in the previous workshop threads. I would have to agree with other posters currently, that Rivens need more work before they can truly be something worthy of the carrot status we and the dev-team are hoping they would be. If, as some worry it seems; that Rivens are meant to be random replacements for existing mandatory mods I fear that it would damage the reputation of DE and Warframe going forward. Perhaps that would be the biggest shame if so.

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I agree with others that Sortie rewards should be looked at soon with how frustrated many players are getting with it and especially about adding other Riven types to the drops. I can understand DE not implementing a universal token currency as there's nothing preventing players to go for one sought after item and ignore all the rest. I like the idea that DeltaPhantom suggested here: 

It gives players a selection of items to choose from based on groupings while letting DE add/modify groups, the items they contain, and the group's chance to be rolled. My suggested modification is that instead of adding a token to be redeemed somewhere, just display the rewards and let players pick it similar to how Relic rewards are selected.

Riven Common Uncommon Rare Legendary
Rifle Focus Lens Greater Focus Lens Orokin Catalyst Legendary Core
Shotgun 2k Endo 4k Endo Orokin Reactor  
Secondary x3 Nitain Forma Exilus Adapter  
Melee (Other Resources?)      
Companion/Sentinel        

 

Edited by Maicael
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Really happy to hear about the cycling cap. I'll start buying slots as soon as that's implemented, since it was the compromise I wanted before considering slots.

I really think a riven type should be dictated by what you equip it on, or some other level of choice, instead of further randomizing the pool. But I do also appreciate not removing rifle rivens altogether in the process. Looking forward to shotguns if they come, if not, secondaries are still cool.

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Where are the values per min-max roll per disposition?

Even if i WANT to buy a Good-God tier Riven for any weapon, i have NO IDEA what is a "perfect" roll so to speak, apart from random comments here and there. Even goddamn wiki have no info :/

I imagine in Code it looks Smtn like Strong Disposition pulls for Multishot from 7 to 12 per level of the Riven mod. Where are those values for every of the 24 suffixes (or at least for main useful ones)?

Not only we need to get 3 Good Rolls for a decent mod (for different weapons positive stats are different), we also need to get a Decent Number roll as well. Its really is beyond good and evil levels of RNG over which we have no control of whatsoever. Why are you refusing to provide BASIC information for a consumer to make an informed decision? 

 

Originally, u were supposed to be able to Test Rivens to find a nice suitable build for you, HOW can u test something when u have to lock  Riven first to use it? Why is there no timer or opportunity to check things out in simulacrum or any other mechanic whatsoever which would actually let us TEST things first, even for a limited time? Why can't u implement an opportunity to rollback to previous Iteration of the mod if the new one is BAD? U can simply put in on the timer until confirmation or make it possible to rollback to previous version at any point in time. Plenty of solutions or choices, but why are we effectively PUNISHED for trying things out?

 

You could also add some sort of feature for people who would like to try a Riven out first and make an automated Rent system for 10-15 minutes and when they ran out, Riven automatically returns to original owner. Maybe some other system which would allow us to test something first, without the fear of Scams and potential loss of extremely valuable Mods ~_~ 

 

Last but not least, Rivens still look like a glorified 3 Damage in 1 mods (or 2 + 1 utility) for allegedly mediocrish/below average weapons and we still have no control over RNG whatsoever. Again, BAD WEAPONS = BAD BASIC STATS => You search for Damage stats to make a weapon less Bad, which makes "variety of builds" argument pointless. 

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5 hours ago, [DE]Drew said:

Kuva Cycling Cost cap:

After reviewing the impact of the Kuva Cycling cost changes (which can be be found here), we're planning to include a maximum Cycle cost cap of 3500 Kuva. So once a Cycle reaches 3500, subsequent Cycles will also be 3500 instead of increasing further. This change will come in a future update and will apply to existing Rivens that are already above the cap. If you spend more than 3500 on a Riven, it will be brought back down to 3500 for subsequent Cycles. However, Kuva will not be refunded retroactively if you spend more, so please keep this in mind.

Awesome, thanks Drew!

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Alright... Here is my 2 cents on the whole situation. I will mainly focus on the acquisition and re rolling aspects of Rivens with respect to the design philosophies and goals of DE as a whole. 

 

Riven Rewards in Sorties

This idea has been bounced around quite a lot here but, should you roll a riven, you should be able to pick which type you'd get. Splitting up Rivens 5 different ways increases the dilution of the reward system and will do nothing but frustrate the average player. If creativity and choice is really the engine that drives this entire system, It is only logical for us to actually have a physical choice in which riven to receive. 

Riven Unlocks

I assume that this will not be a popular idea, but the reason people invest in rivens is because they want to receive one for their favorite weapon, not simply to have them as a means to "balance" their surplus that is left unused. This has already been mentioned in much greater detail by other users, so I won't dwell too much on the subject. Again, if creativity and choice is really the engine that drives this entire system (I will be saying this a lot), It is only logical for us to have this choice as well. Here are list of my favorite weapons in game:

 

Burstron Prime

Dex Furis

Braton Prime

Flux Rifle

Lanka

Dera

AkBronco

Sobek

 

If a riven drops for me and its not any of those guns (minus the Soma, Tonkor, Simulor) then my first instinct is to get rid of it in the market.... asap. I have an extensive arsenal of maxed out weapons... I know which guns I like, which guns I don't, and which guns I do like but can't use in higher level content. My list however, remains unchanged. You could say that this "inspired" choice but in reality the choice was already made for me. I have my list of guns I like, and I am not the only one that has said list. The unlock process in my "perfect world" would be: 

 

Riven drops in sortie, I choose rifle riven

I stick that riven in my burstron prime

I do the quest to unlock (this quest is still controlled by RNG)

Riven is unveiled, NOW the rng process can begin

 

In my opinion, if theses two systems are already in place, there would be very little need to even balance out kuva cycle costs, rng of stats or anything. The implementation of this system has given players two of the most important choices they could make: 1) what kind of riven I got 2)what kind of gun can i use it on. Even if RNG is particularly cruel, the amount of frustration on the player's part would be severely reduced as they now have the following options: 1)sell in the market 2)re roll until satisfactory 3) jump back into sorties to try again. I can say with a great degree of confidence that the average player, whether a new one or a veteran, would have very little problems going through the process of acquiring rivens IF this was the process that they are subjected to. 

 

The Reroll Process

 

Let's assume for a minute that the aforementioned suggestions have already been considered, and determined to be not in line with DE's vision of  "creativity and choice". Then I propose another solution. This is inspired by games such as Diablo 3, The Division, Destiny and many others who have had growing pains with loot rerolls.

In the diablo system you have a set amount of primary/secondary attributes to a piece of gear. The amount of these attributes is directly proportional to the quality of the item. Legendary get the most, basic items get the least. Lets look at Riven Disposition. We have faint-neutral-strong, and the basic principle behind it is similar to item quality. Why not have "Strong" rivens have the most attributes and "Faint Rivens" have the least attributes. It's only logical that riven quality would have this sort of system in place. It supports the desire of DE to "reinvigorate" older, less used weapons (the ones that get Strong Rivens) while controlling the Exponential growth of power by meta weapons without excluding them from this system.

 

The reroll process is simple.. You pick one attribute to reroll. Let's say I have a Burstron Riven with 3 "Primary" attributes (damage/crit/multishot) and 1 "secondary" attribute (-firerate). I now have the option of re rolling that crit (which will pull from "primary" attribute pool) or maybe find a less punishing "secondary" attribute (which pull from its own secondary pool) RNG, and Kuva costs apply here, and quite honestly, this is where RNG becomes less of a frustration but more of an excitement on the player's part. If I was faced with this situation i would certainly take the time to go over all my options, which is the kind of "choice and creativity" that the player base appreciates. Optimization is still controlled by RNG, but it is applied in a way that both logical, fair, and exciting (in my opinion). There are less layers of it, but where it exists is in parts where it counts the most. 

 

 

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Sorry, but I can't appreciate these changes when the current % chance of getting a riven is this low.

I've done 18 sorties and only received 1 riven mod (Almost 3 weeks of doing sorties...). So after secondary/shotgun rivens are added, are you saying that I'm going to have 1/3 of the current chance of getting a riven for the -type- of weapon I want? Sorry, but I cannot get excited or happy about that, I just can't.
I know you've probably read it by now, but why don't you take nitain, forma and exilus bp from the sortie "rewards" pool and add the other riven types in their place instead? Seriously, veterans have those things already, they don't need them.

Before fixing/changing any other thing, the focus should be in changing sortie rewards and adding a token system so that people can at least get something in return of their invested time. I can't seriously see this a positive. It's sad to see that you added a system that it's supposed to encourage players to use old weapons yet getting said system is not only frustating but nearly impossible. After the other rivens types are added, it will be even worse than it is now.

The Kuva cap is great, it really really is. But it's meaningless when people can't get riven mods due to how badly the % is.

I appreciate you communicating all this though.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Drew said:

I've added additional information to the OP. We greatly appreciate those of you who have articulated your thoughts and concerns in a constructive way. 

Thanks Drew. Nice to see the Kuva changes, hopefully this should ease some concerns when getting a Riven for a weapon you like, so great to know.

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Oh, please, with three different weapon types rivens, can we just put it on one of the three veiled and get it for that type, please? It'd make it at least one rng layer lower... we need to get at least that choice...

 

Also, for the love of gaming, make things that don't change a weapon, not appear on a weapon! No ips on pure elementals, no slash bonus on a zarr, no crit on miter, come on!

Edited by Iceheart125
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I don't see Rivens as a solution to anything but building a greater wall between the haves and have nots with further elitism. Unlike say Tennogen thats just cosmetic, this is some serious game effecting power. They could possibly make a old outdated gun better. But the vast majority wants that insane soma Riven. The disposition addition is still weak. And the whole experience so far has been ... frustrating. It can more often than not make that old bad weapon even worse. Or half its stats not even effect the current weapon. It all seems to be a push for inflated plat trading for the rare jackpot someone acquired. Yeah that's supporting DE, but not helping the actual game and its mechanics in a meaningful way.

There was a giant tileset that was built for the war within. It was beautiful and useful for the quest. Yet there is nothing within this tileset reward wise that cant be found elsewhere. Where is that content? Why cant Rivens be a part of it. Why aren't Rivens built specifically for old weapons with some creative input like the little used weapon augments. Why go the path of boarderlands where 90% of your loot is trash so you spend all your game time doing the same chore over and over to roll that slot machine for something thats not -100% damage or using some stat the weapon does not even use.

Edited by Firetempest
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8 hours ago, [DE]Drew said:

However, Kuva will not be refunded retroactively if you spend more, so please keep this in mind. 

Wasted so many kuva... Well, at least I'll do something useful with my 19 rolls Ignis and Sybaris rivens.

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Can you please let us Choose what Riven Mod Class instead of completely relying on RNG AGAIN? 

 

 When you get a Riven Mod from sorties, a UI screen will show up asking you to choose what type of weapon you want the Riven Mod you got to be. After you choose the class, it'll reveal the weapon 

 

 there's like 200 weapons between shotguns, rifles and secondaries. Relying on RNG and dumb luck to give you a mod for a weapon you want it just stupid 

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5 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

Can you please let us Choose what Riven Mod Class instead of completely relying on RNG AGAIN? 

 

 When you get a Riven Mod from sorties, a UI screen will show up asking you to choose what type of weapon you want the Riven Mod you got to be. After you choose the class, it'll reveal the weapon 

 

 there's like 200 weapons between shotguns, rifles and secondaries. Relying on RNG and dumb luck to give you a mod for a weapon you want it just stupid 

It can be done even easier. Veiled rivens can be changed into universal "Veiled Riven Mods", so the weapon you attach it while doing challenge will determine it's type.

Edited by ograzzt
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would have expected the cost to cap at 10 Cycles or maybe 15 Cycles, but uh. okay i guess.

On 11/16/2016 at 9:34 PM, taiiat said:

and it is still a monumental mistake to make Players choose between the Overpowered Weapons and the not so much ones.
the Overpowered ones will win. if you want variety don't force Players to make that choice.

(it really doesn't matter what you want to happen, that's what will. it's the reality of human nature in Video Games. if you don't want that to happen, don't put the Overpowered Weapons in the Riven Pool in the first place. then you've actually solved the problem)

 

still very in support of the idea of being able to Transmute 4 Riven Mods into a guaranteed fresh 5th one.

it would be nice if the Riven Challenge popup would show on the 'Pause Menu' like the existing Challenge System things do.
for the exact same reason, to see the progress of it and to remember what it is.

 

Edit: look, you want Players to use Rivens for variety. that's great. that would be the ideal scenario. the sky won't turn green just because you command it though.

you're going to have to choose between whether you want Rivens to be large cash flow as people trade around few extremely valuable Rivens as super high ticket items since they bring so much Powercrepe with them. or, if you want them to significantly increase variety.
they won't do both. definitely not with how they work now.
that's just how human nature is.

i might call myself an arsehole, but most of the time i'm just being realistic. there's often precedence to use as information to learn from without having to make mistakes.
so then there's no point in sugar coating things or deciding that the reality isn't. 
again, things don't work in a certain way just because you say they should. i completely agree that Rivens should be to increase variety. but i'm being realistic and i know that they won't when already Overpowered things have appealing Rivens to compete with Rivens for not Overpowered things. 20% power factor based on an Overpowered Weapon is a lot more than 200% power factor based on a quite weak Weapon.

Edited by taiiat
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6 hours ago, [DE]Drew said:

I've added additional information to the OP. We greatly appreciate those of you who have articulated your thoughts and concerns in a constructive way. 

Hey, thanks for the changes.  I know the community has been VERY toxic the past few days, but I'm glad that you're still listening to the reasonable ones.  Others have brought up the idea of the Riven's weapon-type becoming based on the weapon it's put on, can we get a comment on this idea?  I think it's something that the reasonable side of the community really likes, and, as someone who's warmed up to Rivens, I'd be very excited for a change like that.

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9 hours ago, [DE]Drew said:

After reviewing the impact of the Kuva Cycling cost changes (which can be be found here), we're planning to include a maximum Cycle cost cap of 3500 Kuva. So once a Cycle reaches 3500, subsequent Cycles will also be 3500 instead of increasing further. This change will come in a future update and will apply to existing Rivens that are already above the cap. If you spend more than 3500 on a Riven, it will be brought back down to 3500 for subsequent Cycles. However, Kuva will not be refunded retroactively if you spend more, so please keep this in mind.

This is great to hear, but i want to add 2 important things here:

 

1.) Around 75% of all mod rolls are useless, either because they feature alot of positive bonuses that have nearly no impact on specific weapons or because they have negative effects that make them unusable

 

2.) Its bad that you dont refund overspend Kuva. I know its alot of work, but some of us rerolled mods alot in hope of getting something useable which easily led to rerolls costing 20k and more. It would be nice if at least some of it could be refunded.

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