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Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 3!


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We are very numerous to make constructive criticism since the first topic about Riven mods, DE, please read other topics as well.

 

But at this rate, riven mods will only be balanced, very interesting and "a new breath" for some weapons on April 2017.

And while you're slow on that process, you've been quite quick at adding clearly abusing methods to earn money and on a wrong reason ("takes too much database").

 

Don't make the mistakes of only keeping the hardcore ones while not caring about the casual. You've done an amazing game so far, DE. I hope all your decision-makers are not financials only...

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It would be interesting if perhaps the total number of riven mods a player could have was increased based of their mastery rank (again another reason for players to rank stuff up).

While a large part of me would LOVE for there to be a way to increase the number of riven mod slots on a weapon, I can't see a way of doing this without breaking the game or breaking certain weapons (which is painful to say because I have two really awesome riven mods for my prisma gorgon).

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Well, here we are again. Since the changes on the sorties rewards (with Forma and 3x Nitain) I got zero Riven Mods as a reward. With the past of the days, the frustration becomes real. In my mind, DE really have a gold idea in hands, and they are almost letting the gold fall off a cliff.

Some games out there have really rare loots that can be dropped from enemies. Some call them Legendaries, others, Uniques. This kind of loot is very common among RPGs. Why not include this idea or change it to fit the kind of game we have here? There are a lot of great ideas out there, from syndicate rewards to trading with Teshin. My suggestions follows:
- Riven Mods as a drop from all the enemies in the game: As a (new) ultra-rare type of mod, find one could be a satisfactory moment. The intense purple glow on the ground, the sound of the victory, the icon on the map alerting all players from their presence. Yes, the drop chance can be really low to balance the rarity, but at least players can try to get a Riven Mod outside 1 time a day. In that way you can introduce as many types of rivens as you want without hurting people that don't care about an specifically type of riven.
- Reward Riven Mods based on faction rotation: (Unless a new and blessed token system for sorties comes up) Ezpz. We will soon have 3 types of rivens (primary, shotgun and secondary) and we have now 3 different factions on the sortie rotation. Each faction have a predetermined type of mod on the possible reward. In that way, you can know exactly what type of riven you are going to receive. 

Thank you for listen the community on this. Let's fix the Riven Mods before start thinking about the infected door, shall we?

"When games generate reviews it's a sign that they are for sale. When games generate criticism it's a sign they are important, impactful and influential."

Edited by Rulbiem
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On 14.12.2016 at 7:47 PM, [DE]Drew said:

Secondary & (potentially) Shotgun Riven Plans: 

As you may have already heard, we plan to include Secondary Rivens with our 19.5 update but if possible, we’ll also include Shotgun Rivens! Our current plan is to include these new Mods in the Sortie reward pool so that if you receive a Riven reward, it has a chance of being either a Rifle, Shotgun, or Secondary Riven. The exact chance for each is still being worked on. We do not plan to change the chance to receive a Riven Mod as a Sortie reward at this time. 

 
 
 

I really hope you plan on adjusting the drop tables of sorties because currently your "encouragement for creativity and choice" is blocked by a big wall of RNG.

Let's assume Riven's have a drop chance between 15% and 25%, this would mean that it would take a player 11 to 19 days, to get a single Riven mod which in itself is already a slow rate of obtaining Riven mods, now when all Riven mods share a single drop chance, you effectively triple the time it takes to get a just the specific weapon type to 33 to 57 days, which are roughly 4-8 weeks, just to get a specific weapon type of desire and if you have not noticed that yet, I'll write it out for you:

THAT IS NOT OK.

A Player can not express creativity nor make choices if they are locked out of the system by sheer chance.

My suggestion is (as you probably have already read quite often for a reason, that is.), that:

1. Nitain, Forma, Exilus Adapter BP's and all lenses are removed from the Sortie drop tables. Lenses are Second Dream content, Sorties are TWW content, lenses have absolutely nothing to do there, same applies to the Exilus Adapter. Nitain has no meaningful sink and therefore no right of existing in the sortie drop table and Forma... Forma in itself is ok, but the amount of Forma you get for the likelihood of actually receiving it is too low, either make it more common or replace it with a Forma bundle worth of Forma.

2. All Future Riven get an equal chance to be obtained (maybe with a shifting weight in chance with different seasons), which is equal to the current chance of obtaining a Riven mod, per individual Riven mod.

The Player should have a consistent income of different Riven mods so that your encouragement in creativity and choice can become reality in the first place.

 

Edited by MaidGalaxy
formating issues i have not noticed before
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This all feels so wrong.
1) We need a system which allowes players to choose what kind of riven they get or just separate all these rivens as a reward (there will be - Rifle riven, Shotgun rievn, Secondary riven rewards), but not mix all these things together. Don't you realize this will be a hell on earth to get the riven you want?!
2) Each kind of rivens must bring with itself 15 more slots. If you are going to say that we need to pay for more slots for further riven types...well no, this is very wrong.
3) We need more control of stats. Now it is just pure RNG based mechanic, which might kill your weapon completely or rise it to the sun.
4) Before all these changes, deal with sorties rewards. Some people still have no rivens!

 

Edited by WhyNotBro
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13 hours ago, [DE]Drew said:

Cycle cost cap of 3500 Kuva. So once a Cycle reaches 3500, subsequent Cycles will also be 3500 instead of increasing further.

YES!  JUST  DO  IT!

...pretty please?

Edit: 

Guess I could try to be constructive too instead just shouting memes. I think it would breath new life in riven system for those who consider their mods "bricked" when kuva costs are getting too high for it to be worth the time and effort while getting no decent stats on said mod at all.

Edited by Patzer
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11 hours ago, [DE]Drew said:

I've added additional information to the OP. We greatly appreciate those of you who have articulated your thoughts and concerns in a constructive way. 

As long as our feedback helps make it better though. I hope my original post wasn't too harsh.

Though I would like to say, capping the kuva cost is good. That's one of the biggest discussion points about the system, and that change is very welcome.

It would be nice to see some comment on the riven stats that basically break weapons though. Negative multishot, for example. Negative damage. Negative flight speed. They really shouldn't exist.

Edited by AdunSaveMe
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Im a bit salty on no refound on the kuva cost, but not gona complain much. The cap is a good thing, but riven mods still have one mayor problem: avaliablity. Now we have a common chance to get a rifle riven once per day, for a random weapon with random stats. The proble is that the cap would not be a proble if the avaliability would be tru other means, like tenshin special mision once every 2-3 days, or even sindicates. With a constant flow of rivens, i personalli would have no proble to do a 15-20 reroll of a riven with the current cost and then dispose of it getting back endo, if i know that i can get another riven fairly easy with no trade involved.

Riven on sorties is, okay, and its about to get worse, because now will have a chance to get a riven for secondary, shotgun or rifle(in order final probability most likely, i dont think it will be split equaly), and this puts a huge bottleneck on rivens for endgame players(mr 20+, were 90% of the content is done and only left relics, sorties and raids).

I think the best solution is to make veiled rivens to be able to equip then on a primari/secondary/shotgun, and when you unveil then you get a random weapon of that category, so the players have some minor control over the outcome.

We still have the problem that endgame players(again, mr20+) have most of the weapons tested, and know what weapons they like (lanka, zarr, buzlock) and what would never use again(paracyst, phantera, and more) so if im stuck with a paracyst riven(which is the case) i have 2 options: try to sell it(with no luck) or disolve it(most likely, when i reach the riven cap). The riven cap is a minor inconvenece, i dont use more than 5-6 primaris, 4-5 secondarys, 2-3 shotguns and 7-10 melee, so if we could have the base capacity increased by 5-15 when the riven secondary/shotgun/melee releases it would be nice.

I hope you like my feedback and sorry for the grammar.

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16 hours ago, [DE]Drew said:

We do not plan to change the chance to receive a Riven Mod as a Sortie reward at this time.

That's bad, if I"m interpreting this correctly.

One Riven has some 20% chance of dropping, so are you saying you'll be splitting that 20% into three pieces for the three Riven mods?

How about we stop stuffing Sorties with more items? It's not exactly in a good place right now.

 

What you could do is give the Rivens to Syndicates, with the cost being the max amount of rep you can gain at r5 (132k iirc).

This guarantees people can get one, but will still have to wait a few days to gather up the rep needed for it.

 

Or, as already mentioned:

16 hours ago, (PS4)TheRainbowTurt1e said:

Why not just have one universal "veiled riven mod". If you equipped this riven mod on a primary weapon and do the challenge you get a primary riven in return, if you equip the mod on a secondary and complete the challenge you get a secondary riven, so on so fourth.

 

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Here's my feedback.  I've posted plenty of it before, but it's worth saying again.

1- Many weapons don't benefit significantly from rivens solely because the bonuses are % modifiers of their existing stats rather than flat modifiers of base stats.  This means that players can only amplify what a weapon already does, and not change the core of how it functions.  This significantly limits the range of useful stats that can be rolled for any particular weapon.  Rivens seem fairly homogenous because of this, though I'm sure you could poll your data to see exactly what's getting used, and what's not.

2- The stats available on rivens amount to just duplicates of standard mods that are already considered obligatory - +damage, +multishot, + critical or status, etc.  Again, these don't create new and interesting possibilities apart from potentially freeing up a mod slot for other more-interesting mods such as thunderbolt or fomorian accelerant.  Effects such as those of Thunderbolt, Combustion Beam, and pvp-sourced IPS-shifting mods like Comet Rounds could be included in the riven roll pool to fantastic, fun effect, providing opportunity for a great deal of player creativity and choice.

3- Negative stat rolls continue to make many potentially good rivens completely useless.   With strong dispositions getting stronger negative effects, it offsets the intended purpose of the mod to begin with - making low-quality weapons good.  The effects of some of these rolls lead to weapons that actually heal enemies.  Some stats such as damage and multishot need to be taken out of the potential curse pool entirely.

4- Riven availability is a problem for a lot of players and the proposed changes could make this problem a lot worse.  Most players already know what weapons they want rivens for.  Obtaining a riven for said weapon will be astronomically more difficult without the capacity for the player to at least choose which class of riven they are rewarded.  

5- A kuva cost cap is great.  Awesome.  Can't wait to reroll some of my dead rivens.

6- Many players would like to see Kuva acquisition extended to the Kuva Fortress tileset in the form of cache, endless mission, or rare crate type rewards.  It makes sense from a lore perspective (they collect it elsewhere, store it in the fortress) and would incentivize many players to visit the Fortress more often.  It would also provide a gameplay alternative to the Kuva siphon mini-game and could even integrate kuva guards into ordinary gameplay.  With the current kuva alert system, getting kuva doesn't appear very limited in terms of quantity per hour achievable.  Balancing other sources against the kuva alerts would be important, though not very difficult.

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Hello Drew,

So far, my biggest issue with riven mods is acquisition.  I have four, I bought two of them and received on from the quest.  I have done the sorties about half of the days since riven mods have come out.  One. One riven mod as a sortie reward.  I feel this is a bit on the low side, I have gotten a ton of Endo (2000) at a time and in the last week I got two greater lenses back to back.  The issue is the actual rewards that are competing with a riven mod.  

Endo- can receive the same amount from certain missions, sometimes more.

Lenses - 20-40plat 

Forma- 20plat

Catalyst/reactor/exhilus- 20plat

Nitain x 3 - time >18 hours

Legendary core - only in sortie

Riven - only in sortie

As you can see when you look to alternative means to get these items, most of the drop table you can flat out buy in the market.  What this means is that people that are playing the sorties are mostly looking to acquire sortie unique rewards.  When people get a lens the usual text in chat is: "lens rip" "aww man" or more commonly "*"! I'm not saying you should take these out, but perhaps have two rewards per sortie, one that gives you commonly easily acquired items and one that gives you sortie specific items.  For example:

Sortie #1: x1 unairu lens; rifle riven mod

Sortie #2: x2000 Endo; x3 nitain

Sortie #3: x1 exhilus adapter; x1 legendary fusion core

This will allow for future salt free dilution of the drop tables and allow to freedom to make new sortie specific rewards.

But will it break the game?!? I once had a boss that was terrified to give someone a complement because he was afraid that his employees would stop trying to get one.  Instead that mindset sows a deep bitterness for that person and the mindset that you will never be good enough.  His this relates: the rewards I get everytime I finish a sortie is a slap in the face, I actually value the credits more than the Endo, or 20plat giveaways.  I'm there really only for a challenge, why shouldn't I be rewarded appropriately?  What if for a week of work, you were expecting a check for money, but instead got a gift card to banana republic?  You can't pay your bills with that.  Rewards should match the challenge.

 

 

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19 hours ago, [DE]Drew said:

Our current plan is to include these new Mods in the Sortie reward pool so that if you receive a Riven reward, it has a chance of being either a Rifle, Shotgun, or Secondary Riven. The exact chance for each is still being worked on. We do not plan to change the chance to receive a Riven Mod as a Sortie reward at this time. 
 

This is awful. Please don't. Let us have a way to obtain Rivens without depending on RNG. I've had 8 2k endos in a row and stopped playing the game because of this. What's the point of this system if we can't even get the damn things?

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  • Need a way to get Riven mods outside sorties...
  • Not happy with 20 plat per riven slot cost. It certainly is not a database storage issue, and database retrieval issues can be ironed out... so that leaves greed as the reason.
  • Riven cycle cap is good.
  • Replacing Rifle Riven Mods with Secondary & Shotgun Rivens is bad.
Edited by lyravega
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On 12/14/2016 at 7:47 PM, [DE]Drew said:

(This Dev Workshop builds on the information discussed in our previous Riven workshops. You can read them here: Part 1 & Part 2)

Additional Riven Slots:

The option to purchase additional Riven Slots was added in Update 19.3.2 for those players who wish to go beyond the initial 15 capacity. For many players, reaching that capacity is still a long-term goal, as they gradually acquire more through Sorties and trading. However, some players who have fully embraced the Riven life and are already looking for ways to increase their collection. For that reason, we’ve included the option to buy a bundle of three additional slots for 60 Platinum. 

So why limit initial capacity to 15 and why sell a bundle for more? In our first Riven workshop we stated that the maximum is a reflection of our desire to encourage creativity and choice. We want each Riven in your collection to be carefully considered. Should you keep it, dissolve it, or trade it? Maybe you choose to focus on Rivens for more powerful weapons, or since those are already capable, maybe you’re a curator of the more obscure weapon Rivens. 

The point in limiting capacity is meaningful selection rather than a ubiquitous collection. But, like in many other parts of Warframe, we want to give players the option to expand on the systems that appeal to them. With that in mind, we included the option to increase capacity at a cost that reflects the initial goal of meaningful Riven choice and reflects the value of Rivens in the overall economy. If someone chooses to purchase additional slots, they are investing in the Riven system and in Warframe as a whole. 

We still require a hard cap of 60 slots because Riven Mods are so big compared to any other  item data, which all gets pulled in when Warframe queries a player’s inventory. If this technical limitation can be overcome, we’ll post updated information. Additional comments on Riven capacity can be found in our Road to 15/15 workshop.

It’s worth reiterating what was said in our first Riven workshop, “As Developers, we want to emphasize: nothing is set in stone. Warframe is known to be always changing and adapting. Remember that groups work best together when respect is shown, so while we can and do look past a lot of vitriol to find what you think, it's better that you express your thought without it.

With that in mind, let’s move on to some exciting plans for Update 19.5! 


Secondary & (potentially) Shotgun Riven Plans: 

As you may have already heard, we plan to include Secondary Rivens with our 19.5 update but if possible, we’ll also include Shotgun Rivens! Our current plan is to include these new Mods in the Sortie reward pool so that if you receive a Riven reward, it has a chance of being either a Rifle, Shotgun, or Secondary Riven. The exact chance for each is still being worked on. We do not plan to change the chance to receive a Riven Mod as a Sortie reward at this time. 

 

Kuva Cycling Cost cap:

After reviewing the impact of the Kuva Cycling cost changes (which can be be found here), we're planning to include a maximum Cycle cost cap of 3500 Kuva. So once a Cycle reaches 3500, subsequent Cycles will also be 3500 instead of increasing further. This change will come in a future update and will apply to existing Rivens that are already above the cap. If you spend more than 3500 on a Riven, it will be brought back down to 3500 for subsequent Cycles. However, Kuva will not be refunded retroactively if you spend more, so please keep this in mind. 

 

We’ll be watching and reviewing the impact of the new Mods as they propagate through the playerbase, so we look forward to seeing what kind of interesting combinations arise. As always, we’ll make changes as necessary. We appreciate your feedback and understanding as we gradually expand the Riven system. If plans change, we’ll update this workshop. 
 
Thanks for reading! 

Dear Drew I quote this to get your attention.

 

Even though warframe seems like to have a community that working behind and beyond DE, I never see it back in the game it self as an constructive thing unless it's annoyance or some that needs to be fixed which you haven't seen yet. I know I'n not in the position to talk like this but seeing all the RNG systems and other sets of balances trough the game I get the feeling this is something that is being neglected.

 

After weeks of spending time trying to aquire rivens and seeing the changes I can conclude this;

Rivens seems like a bandage for the scaling system. I say this because of the changes and the way you have dealt in the past with somethings.

  • The first thing being the rivens on weapons that are already OP. Normally some kind of nerf would have appeared for the said weapon or riven, but instead you modded the chance of acquiring them for OP weapon.
  • The second thing is that the level of enemies started to rise again, which has not occurred in months. My first time noticing this was when TWW was released, the quest enemies for my first game through was around level 50 ~ 80, around the 3rd hotfix it dropped. But the sorties enemies and alert enemies started to rise from an avarage of 35 to 55 for alerts and 70 for sorties.
  • The third thing is not adressing any better solution for this.
  • My final reason is all the talk about rivens when there seems to be not much about them, not enough to hype them, though
Quote

 

So why limit initial capacity to 15 and why sell a bundle for more? In our first Riven workshop we stated that the maximum is a reflection of our desire to encourage creativity and choice. We want each Riven in your collection to be carefully considered. Should you keep it, dissolve it, or trade it? Maybe you choose to focus on Rivens for more powerful weapons, or since those are already capable, maybe you’re a curator of the more obscure weapon Rivens. 

 

  • Maybe you should change the way of inquiring rivens first because at this point it doesn't encourage creativity and choice. In fact they are so rare to get, and even more rare to get them for a weapon that you have and on top of that even more rare for the weapon that you actually want, may it be OP or not.
  • The second thing with rivens are most of them aren't that special. As stated in reason 1 and something that I know that you also know based on the rotations of rivens, look at the numbers you have given them to appear. 
  • The third thing with riven is that unless you roll for a specific stat, it is useless. Let's say I have the same riven for both empty weapons:
    • My riven stats it increases crit by 100%, multiplier by 4, status by 10% and slash + 200
      • op weapon
        • 25% crit
        • 2.1 x multiplier
        • status 12%
        • slash 225
        • impact 10
        • puncture 12
           
      • some weapon that is collecting dust
        • 12% crit
        • 2.5 multiplier
        • status 25%
        • slash 10
        • impact 55
        • puncture 35

by this comparison you can see wich weapon I will choose even though those rivens are the same. 
And also there is an unwritten rule in warframe that stats below 50% can be neglected, because RNG

  • The fourth reason: The only good part of rivens is that it takes less space for a combination if you are blessed enough.
Quote

The point in limiting capacity is meaningful selection rather than a ubiquitous collection. But, like in many other parts of Warframe, we want to give players the option to expand on the systems that appeal to them. With that in mind, we included the option to increase capacity at a cost that reflects the initial goal of meaningful Riven choice and reflects the value of Rivens in the overall economy. If someone chooses to purchase additional slots, they are investing in the Riven system and in Warframe as a whole. 

This sounds awesome, pls do this in a better format.

Edited by ChaellExE
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My computer was absolutely destroyed, so I'm hoping I can get Ember's BP before it's vaulted again. I still have over a week I guess. Gotta wait on the repair crew.

 

Speaking of crew... After that... New Corpus content, maybe some buffs via rivens on my favorite Convectrix, Staticor, and Detron too. Makes me want to ride a moa into the sunset and get the job done, muahaha~

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What I'm getting from all this, is that the only reason you were willing to remove all the RNG and loot table dilution from void missions, is because very soon that was no longer going to be endgame.

Now that sorties and rivens are to be the endgame, we are getting all of the RNG and loot table dilution put right back in.

Edited by polarity
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On 12/14/2016 at 10:54 PM, AM-Bunny said:

EDIT: Actually it's cutting Rifle Riven chances to 1/4 the way it's written. It sounds as though it will be 25% Rifle, 25% Shotgun, 50% Secondary. 

Where is that even implied?

On 12/14/2016 at 10:47 PM, [DE]Drew said:

The exact chance for each is still being worked on. 

 

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Just now, Praxxor said:

Well then that's no longer a thing probably, and honestly it wasn't a bad way of splitting them up. I'm sorry for misunderstanding.

Don't be sorry. Unlike regular users, there's absolutely no trace when a mod or admin edits their post, so it's impossible to know.

Seems to be a sign that it's being taken under advisory at least. I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

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