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Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 3!


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On 12/14/2016 at 0:47 PM, [DE]Drew said:

(This Dev Workshop builds on the information discussed in our previous Riven workshops. You can read them here: Part 1 & Part 2)

Additional Riven Slots:

The option to purchase additional Riven Slots was added in Update 19.3.2 for those players who wish to go beyond the initial 15 capacity. For many players, reaching that capacity is still a long-term goal, as they gradually acquire more through Sorties and trading. However, some players who have fully embraced the Riven life and are already looking for ways to increase their collection. For that reason, we’ve included the option to buy a bundle of three additional slots for 60 Platinum. 

So why limit initial capacity to 15 and why sell a bundle for more? In our first Riven workshop we stated that the maximum is a reflection of our desire to encourage creativity and choice. We want each Riven in your collection to be carefully considered. Should you keep it, dissolve it, or trade it? Maybe you choose to focus on Rivens for more powerful weapons, or since those are already capable, maybe you’re a curator of the more obscure weapon Rivens. 

The point in limiting capacity is meaningful selection rather than a ubiquitous collection. But, like in many other parts of Warframe, we want to give players the option to expand on the systems that appeal to them. With that in mind, we included the option to increase capacity at a cost that reflects the initial goal of meaningful Riven choice and reflects the value of Rivens in the overall economy. If someone chooses to purchase additional slots, they are investing in the Riven system and in Warframe as a whole. 

We still require a hard cap of 60 slots because Riven Mods are so big compared to any other  item data, which all gets pulled in when Warframe queries a player’s inventory. If this technical limitation can be overcome, we’ll post updated information. Additional comments on Riven capacity can be found in our Road to 15/15 workshop.

It’s worth reiterating what was said in our first Riven workshop, “As Developers, we want to emphasize: nothing is set in stone. Warframe is known to be always changing and adapting. Remember that groups work best together when respect is shown, so while we can and do look past a lot of vitriol to find what you think, it's better that you express your thought without it.

With that in mind, let’s move on to some exciting plans for Update 19.5! 


Secondary & (potentially) Shotgun Riven Plans: 

As you may have already heard, we plan to include Secondary Rivens with our 19.5 update but if possible, we’ll also include Shotgun Rivens! Our current plan is to include these new Mods in the Sortie reward pool so that if you receive a Riven reward, it has a chance of being either a Rifle, Shotgun, or Secondary Riven. The exact chance for each is still being worked on. We do not plan to change the chance to receive a Riven Mod as a Sortie reward at this time. 

 

Kuva Cycling Cost cap:

After reviewing the impact of the Kuva Cycling cost changes (which can be be found here), we're planning to include a maximum Cycle cost cap of 3500 Kuva. So once a Cycle reaches 3500, subsequent Cycles will also be 3500 instead of increasing further. This change will come in a future update and will apply to existing Rivens that are already above the cap. If you spend more than 3500 on a Riven, it will be brought back down to 3500 for subsequent Cycles. However, Kuva will not be refunded retroactively if you spend more, so please keep this in mind. 

 

We’ll be watching and reviewing the impact of the new Mods as they propagate through the playerbase, so we look forward to seeing what kind of interesting combinations arise. As always, we’ll make changes as necessary. We appreciate your feedback and understanding as we gradually expand the Riven system. If plans change, we’ll update this workshop. 
 
Thanks for reading! 

 

As always, let's start by saying thanks to DE for keeping these channels of communication open.

Even if we as players might tend to feel like these discussions should be a given, DE are making themselves a little vulnerable when they come to the table for dialogue. They're giving us the power to hurt their feelings (among other things), and trusting us not to abuse it.

Good discussion can't happen if either side fails to appreciate the bond of trust, and I think we are making headway on turning Riven Mods into something resembling a healthy and sustainable part of the game.

Much remains to be done, but I really think we're making progress.

On "Purchasing Additional Riven Slots" :

     I can't help but feel a little hurt by this one. Riven Mods, as a system, started off on terrible footing with the players. There is indeed precedent for the purchasing of additional storage space, but timing alone is enough to cast this announcement in a bad light. In my mind, it also fails the 'eye test' of whether a rule appears to support a goal. I'll try to elaborate, inside this spoiler.

Spoiler

When players reach the storage cap on their accounts, they do technically face a choice. The problem is that players don't feel like we're seeing the same choice as the developers.

We aren't seeing a choice that feels "meaningful." The choice does have weight, but all that weight feels negative. In this choice, there seems to be no "positive" outcome for the player. Naturally, that feels bad.

One of many things will happen: players might trade or dissolve a mod from their collection to make space, but both of these options are very likely to feel like a loss of some kind. There will be a strong pressure to keep the most "valuable" mods, and there is significant overlap between "valuable" and "meta." That's a problem.

Alternatively, players might be tempted to make a new account in an attempt to circumvent the cap. This poses problems of its own, not the least of which is public perception of the game if it becomes accepted practice to make "mule" accounts.

We need to think very carefully about the idea of a storage cap on Riven Mods.

Asking us to "invest" in this system by purchasing slots also feels disingenuous, because we have no guarantee of how our "investment" will be perceived. If we "vote for this system" with our platinum, how will that vote be seen?

In the end, we as players have very imperfect information on what priorities drive any given design choice. We love and trust our dev team, certainly, but the realities of business bring other pressures to the table. If we "invest" in Riven Mod slots now, we might unwittingly add to that pressure in a way that makes their jobs harder. I don't want that.

To be completely candid, I don't trust that our "investment" in Riven Mod slots won't be misinterpreted when seen by many folks with different priorities. With that in mind, I can't in good conscience offer any support of this kind. It just wouldn't be responsible, especially considering that a "mis-translation" of that support might lead to decisions that really hurt the game.

Apologies if that seems supremely negative, but I do see hope for hurdling the current technical challenge of data storage. Based on the contributions of some thoughtful folks both on these forums and the subreddit, I think it's an objective very much within reach.

On the addition of more Riven Mods to the Sortie pool (Secondary and perhaps Shotgun):

On paper, I can't say that I like the sound of it.

I'd prefer that expansions to the Riven Mod system proceed more slowly, at a rate that allows each batch of mods to "cool completely" within the economy before more arrive. Think of an "RNG Pie," if you want to look at it that way. It has to cool, or the filling won't set properly, leaving you with a runny mess and the thought of what that pie could have been. Riven Mods have so much potential for volatility across multiple parts of the game, and it doesn't feel like enough time is being spent analyzing trends and overall impact.

Again with the spoilers, but this post will be far too long without them.

Spoiler

Forgive a psych guy for harping on and on about public perception, but it's important. Moving too quickly might only reinforce the worst fears of the community, even if those fears are unfounded or never come to fruition. When people are fearful, they pull inward - they spend less money and less time playing, or they stop recommending the game to new players.

Sure, some folks will spend a lot of cash on "new stuff," and perhaps that spending is enough to offset any losses from unhappy customers. Even if that turns out to be true, is that what DE wants for their game? Do we really want to be yet another game community where virtually all the spending comes from a mere handful of players?

Some might argue that there is no other path for a "successful Free to Play game," and I'll concede that this might be true.

Ultimately, my desire is for the longevity of Warframe as a game and community. I think that slower expansion of Riven Mods is better, and would maximize their useful lifespan as "game content."

We've seen some interesting suggestions for additional ways of acquiring Riven Mods; I think that avenue needs to be explored.

On Plans to add a Cap to Kuva Cycling Cost:

This is really great news!

I think that 3500 is a very sensible number. This cap would make the system feel so much more fair to players - "respectful of their investment" might be the phrase - and it should help control the market values of Riven Mods as a bonus.

If individual mods can no longer have their value "destroyed" by rising cycle costs, that means players are encouraged to keep experimenting and trade prices may very well begin to stabilize. I'm sure there's room for nitpicking, but I'd like to spend some time with a cycle cost cap of 3500 and see where that takes us.

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Excellent post. Sorry I can only upvote it once.

-----

idk if this comes across in my posts, but I hold a great deal of respect for DE having managed to make Warframe.

But as time passes, I look at things being implemented and think:

1 hour ago, notlamprey said:

is that what DE wants for their game?

but ofc, it may not matter what DE want, because

1 hour ago, notlamprey said:

the realities of business bring other pressures to the table.

Edited by Chroia
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Can you please at least think about locking stats on riven mods? such as paying 50k kuva to lock a stat on a mod, not the number, just the stat so you can still keep rolling that mod to get the perfect numbers but with the assurance that your precious crit chance/damage will remain on the mod.

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" After reviewing the impact of the Kuva Cycling cost changes (which can be be found here), we're planning to include a maximum Cycle cost cap of 3500 Kuva. So once a Cycle reaches 3500, subsequent Cycles will also be 3500 instead of increasing further. This change will come in a future update and will apply to existing Rivens that are already above the cap. If you spend more than 3500 on a Riven, it will be brought back down to 3500 for subsequent Cycles. However, Kuva will not be refunded retroactively if you spend more, so please keep this in mind.  "

 

Pretty good.

 

]\'[

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Out of the 4 Riven mods that I unveiled i got 2 for sentinel weapons, and 2 for the Harpak, am I just supposed to throw them away for 200 miserably endo? I wouldn't mind if they were easier to get, but right now you just have a 20% chance of getting one once a day, it requires a huge amount of time an effort, just to get what? 200 endo... 

What about warranting a Riven Mod with incursions and randomize another additional reward, that would remove 90% of my frustrations...

Right now all i have to say is F*** RNG...

Edited by DoctorPelusa
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On 12/14/2016 at 11:47 AM, [DE]Drew said:

we're planning to include a maximum Cycle cost cap of 3500 Kuva

You could likely raise this to 7000 Kuva, or even 14k Kuva. It just needed a Cap. Didn't have to be low. I've been saying 30k Kuva cap.

On 12/14/2016 at 11:47 AM, [DE]Drew said:

For that reason, we’ve included the option to buy a bundle of three additional slots for 60 Platinum. .... We still require a hard cap of 60 slots because Riven Mods are so big compared to any other  item data, which all gets pulled in when Warframe queries a player’s inventory. If this technical limitation...

A range of Static values, non-Float values would have solved this. Static non-Float values could also have been modified in-runtime by the Weapon the Riven is attached to. Giving biggest boosts to Non-meta weapons in the Same Name family, instead of lumping all those weapons together, and forcing them to use the Disposition of the Faintest (most meta) weapon in the family.

A range of static non-float values just make way more sense. Both on the database end and as mechanics.

It feels like Rivens were made so Randomly Random for Randoms sake, and not with a solid design reason to back that choice. Unless you care to explain very clearly why Floating Decimal Point random numbers were the ideal choice for this system.

On 12/14/2016 at 11:47 AM, [DE]Drew said:

so we look forward to seeing what kind of interesting combinations arise.

Not a Tonkor? Endo'ed. Not +Damage, +Multishot, +Crit/Status chance (depending on weapon), cycled until achieved or frustrated. If Frustrated Endo'ed or Traded (if weapon type is Tonkor).

Replace Tonkor with "Meta weapon". 

I've been keeping a record of what I've collected and what I've rolled. Even had some -Multi Shot and -Damage (over 100%) show up.

https://imgur.com/a/KC0LK

I've personally tried to give a fair try (with cycling to get decent stats) to each weapon type. So far the Grinlock is still bad, even with its current Riven. The "Dud" rounds and performance/handing of that weapon is so bad I sold it the first time, rebuilt it for the Riven, even stuck an Orokin Catalyst into it and lots of Forma... it's still awful to use and I am regretting the time I've put into this Rivened version.

Which is the feeling I get when using the Riven system as a whole. Regret. It's not a fun system to use. It's only "joy" comes from the RNG Gambler Spikes, which is a reaction I loath to see in indented design, because it preys on one of humanities greater failings.

As I start approaching that 15 cap (not going to buy extra slots for 20 plat each, not with the Riven system in the junky state its in) I'm going to be eyeing the Daikyu, Grinlok, extra Miter, Glaxion, and Paris Rivens for Endo removal. Especially with Shotgun and Secondary Rivens coming.

So far out of all current 11 Rivens in my collection only the Vectis Visdex and Miter Visi-argidra feel at all worth while.

The Vectis Visdex is mainly used on my Volt Prime as part of his combined Arms Crit loadout: Vectis Prime, Vaykor Marelok, Fragor Prime. Using the Volt Shield Crit and Damage boost at range, and Speed for Crit Mallet womping. I could also likely use the Vectis on a Banshee build, so it has a bit of variety.

And the Miter Visi-argidra is specific to a Miter Magnitize Mag build, taking advantage of the Miter's interaction with Magnetize bubbles and Mags armor shredding. However this was already a known combo, the only thing holding it back was the rather lackluster Charge Rate on the Miter. A Charge rate that competed for space with other mandatory damage output mods.

Which kinda gets to a point. Many under-performing weapons could be solidly performing IF they are Rivened with the correct stats. In a rather un-fun way (fighting RNG at every step) Rivens have handed off the "Buffing/Balance" responsibly from DE to the Players. We have to RNG hunt for the "Buffs" to make junk weapons viable. And we can only buff so many of them (because slots/DB-issues). You then disincentive collecting and working on those "Buffs" by capping the total number (due to data base issues you're design choices caused in the first place), and not giving the Player ways to bias the randomization so they can work on getting the Buffs those trash tier weapons need.

--> Without better player side control over Weapon type and Stat generation (even at very high non-Kuva resource costs) most the under-performing Rivens for under-performing weapons I'll get my hands on over time will very likely get Endo'ed.

Why? Same reason Rhino gets sold once better frames are available to a new player. Why weapons are sold when better weapons become available. Slot limitations, and functional value.

And as Sortie reward, a Dissolved Riven doesn't produce even worth 1k Endo (half the 2k Endo filler), which at times would be a better reward once a full 15 META riven is established. At least I can bank 1k Endo for Primed Mods, or Primed Umbra Riven Mods when you get around to making those once the Riven system runs out of "new shiny" steam.

IF there were ways to Bias, even resource expensive ones, the RNG. IF there were ways to shift or re-roll the Weapon of a Riven. IF there was just generally more Player control in the system... perhaps a Slot price would be worth while... at 8 Platinum per slot.

As Rivens stand, we have a new term for most of them... Endo Fodder.

Edited by Brasten
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The kuva cap is great, but we need more choice in the Riven system.

Soma Rivens can go as high as 3,000 platinum. That's over $150 in real money if you buy the Prime Access with discounted platinum for a mod that works on only one gun.

This absurd inflation happens to every MMO at endgame for the exact same reasons: too much RNG, not enough player choice. Regular MMO's do this to prolong the grind since they don't release enough gear content to sustain consistent play otherwise, but in Warframe, the situation is the exact opposite. Consistent play comes from collecting and improving an entire arsenal of weapons, not just one or two, so the grind is already in place and doesn't need to be prolonged by arbitrary luck systems any more than it was before update 19. Too much of anything will always be bad, so it's about finding the balance, which we are currently in the process of. Having said that, it doesn't do anybody any good to stay on the far end any longer than necessary.

Suggestions:

 - Allow us to retain stats of our choosing during cycling

 - Allow us to choose the weapon that our Riven goes onto, or at least select a pool of 5 different weapons for it to select from instead of every rifle/sniper in the game.

 - Players should be given the maximum amount of Riven slots that DE believes technically possible for all players, beyond that, purchasing Riven slots can act as a necessary barrier so that players don't break the servers, however let's get one thing straight:

The cap causes players to desire Riven mods for meta weapons, since the power creep is going to have a stronger appeal to more people than anything else possible with Rivens. In a game purely about collecting, limiting endgame mods makes no sense from a creative standpoint, or an economic standpoint. It prevents deflation of prices, especially on the meta mods that everybody wants, which only adds to the economic disaster that Riven mods have proven to be. In short, limiting Rivens is not productive for the players in any way. If we can have (virtually) unlimited weapons, warframes, and mods, then it makes no sense from an economic or creative standpoint to limit one type of mod to 15 (and only letting it work on one item to boot) when many players have well over a hundred useable weapons and warframes in their inventory. The only reasonable justification for limiting mod slots is technical, server-sided protection. In other words, making sure that we don't break your servers.

 - Kuva cost cap you already did that thanks, my 16 roll Boltor Riven will appreciate that

The ridiculous inflation and destruction of the most desired items in the endgame market is a problem for this game, as it is about collecting not grinding for 3 months to get one weapon ready for endgame; hence why a system with this level of multiplicative RNG stacking is unjustified.

Edited by Daggerpaw1
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I'm seeing a lot of talk of RNG regarding rivens and other systems in Warframe, but RNG -- whether it be gathering higher tier gear in Warframe, better mods, or divine riven builds -- is part of the marketing strategy in which Warframe is based. Most purchases in Warframe are based on convenience, access, privilege; sometimes all of the above. The U.I. has many opportunities to spend platinum where it serves little purpose other than to sate the desires of people people who are deeply attracted to an in-game item/goal or  impatient, which is not inherently wrong, but asking for choice in Warframe suggests more for the game abroad than we seem to realize. All of these platinum and purchase-related choices are time-consuming, incite a purchase of some kind, and provide some type of attractive privilege or access that other players with less means (time or money to spend on the game) will not be able to acquire in just 30-minute episodes throughout the day... unless RNG blesses you. I am, and I'm sure that the portion of the player base that is more aware of addiction and it's implications for games like these, are aware of better ways to employ the platinum and RNG challenge that Warframe poses. DE... I believe in you and your cause. Thank you for your time for all who read my effusion. 

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Just make Riven Mods a warranted reward from sorties plus one of the other rewards aditionally, that way, everyone would be happier about sortie rewards in general, wether it's 2000 endo or a forma, more rivens available means less frustration from getting a weapon that you don't have or bad stats, plus more people buying those stupidly overpriced slots...

Edited by DoctorPelusa
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Riven mods are treading down the dark path of pay to win.

gear re rerolling has been tried by other games and failed miserably (The Division)

So now we are at the point of FREE GAME FOR EVERYONE FOREVER UNTIL.....

Love the game hate the idea of pay to win mods (since I haven't gotten one in weeks apart from trade chat)

The idea of rng mods is insane book yourselves into the nearest asylum asap.

Whats your next great idea a subscription just to play for the more desired items.

The hole you dig is the one you end up trapped in and with an increasing number of peeps leaving to play other stuff that hole may just be deep enough not to be able to get out of.

Edited by Otis.Driftwood
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Alright, first of all I'd like to say hi........ (Didn't know how, to start this off lol).

Second of all i'd like to thank you guys for adding a limit on kuva reroll costs this needed to come eventually or else a lot of us wouldn't be able to sleep at night because of the terrifying thought of having to spend a ridiculous amount of kuva.

3rd. The system we have atm won't last. Once more op weapons come out (cause they surely will) weapons that already have strong dispositions won't be able to compete with those stronger weapons but with an even larger strength gap unless if rivens become stupidly op. For example let's say the dual Tigris prime came out. That weapon would have to have an even weaker disposition than the regular Tigris prime. Which means weapons like the Tiberon will need even crazier rivens to reach the level of the dual Tigris Prime for example: +350%dmg would have to become something of the norm, granted, that may not even be an issue but nonetheless you can see where i'm coming from about the disposition issue. Balance simply can't be achieved with this system the way it is now and lest us not forget it's already unbalanced as all LIVING S*!%!

Also, is it just me or are riven drop chances A GOD DAMN LIEEEEEEEE! Ever since the drop chance changes for sorties came i've been running them every day with a friend of mine however up to now not even a single riven  has dropped for us. (Maybe it's just the crazy rng and grind in this game but hey that's something for me to get angry about another day).

Almost last but CERTAINLY NOT LEAST I can't help but feel this system is becoming a total cash grab and is just unbalancing the game even more. On one of the recent devstreams Steve said that the goal of this system is to bring life back into old/weak weapons and make them endgame viable yet nowadays you can see people running around with riven mods that are for the tonkor and make the weapon deal more damage. People aren't going to stop using the best weapons in the game for the crappy ones just cause they get a nice riven for it. They'll stick to the best ones because they're the best weapons. Because of this you get to see a bunch of people in trade chat selling boltor and soma rivens for 1000-2000 plat. If what Steve really said is true then i'm sorry but the damage has already come so far that I can't believe him. You can't nerf high tier rivens anymore because people will get mad after spending 2k plat, you can't change how they work because then people might have a different product instead of what they asked for in a trade. Honestly this system could have been an amazing way to open up a majority of possible routes for damage 3.0 to go down (if it even will come at this point) but in the end it's all trash. :/ Also........... MAKE IT SO THAT WE CAN CHOOSE THE WEAPON WE WANT THE RIVEN FOR! UP TO NOW MY 2 RIVENS HAVE BEEN FOR THE AMPREX AND OGRIS 2 WEAPONS I HATE JFIFBFJBIADBIAGUDGACDCSHSD.LN!

Finally i'd like to make 1 thing clear.

 I love DE just as much as every other tenno in the origin system however when they serve us garbage on a plate i'm not gonna eat it up. Although I was being rather harsh with this post PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD try and understand that without the community being very critical and harsh DE will NEVER act. It took us an incredible amount of time to get "universal" (apparently dogs and cats don't exist in this universe) vacuum but the moment they realized they f%*#@d it up they responded quickly to try and fix it. If I triggered you thanks to this post well then uhhhhhhhhhhh..... you smell bad if I triggered you.

Thanks for reading.

 

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After 27 sorties, I finally got another Riven mod today.

It's for the Flux Rifle.

I sold my Flux Rifle a long time ago because it was a very weak weapon with poor ammo efficiency.

I guess my sortie reward today was 200 Endo, since that's what I'll get when I dissolve it. :sadcry:

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Rivens concern me because the devs are acknowledging that many weapons go unused, that they want us to use these weapons, and that the weapons need stat buffs (Rivens) to get players to use them.

However, instead of acknowledging that they should buff or tweak weapons to be more viable, Rivens were made to sort of band-aid the issue. This very obviously fails to address the root cause of the problem.

Back when I first started the devs were being called out to buff shotguns but in the first devstream I ever saw they said, live, that shotguns were perfectly fine. It took well over a year before they acknowledged the problem and put out a shotgun buff, and even now the way they ignore weapon feedback is a reoccurring issue.

It's never too late to fix weapons, it's just more complicated now that band-aid Rivens are a thing. Once a weapon's been tweaked, just adjust Riven disposition appropriately. The devs might find that people will begin using that weapon more, as they wanted, and that Rivens aren't treated as a necessity but as a 'cool mod' you can choose to use, as they wanted.

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You're kidding us by voluntarily making all riven mods rarer and still no way to drop riven mods besides Sorties???

 

There are other possibilities for taking our money! Possibilities that wouldn't angry us! You can BOTH make the customer happy AND take his money!

Making each individual riven mods rarer is a BAD way to inflate prices and incite people to buy plats and buy riven mods to other people.

Example : if riven mod were for a weapon chosen out of 3 randomly selected weapons when finishing the challenge, you could for example make a one-time buyable improvement for 80 plats that would permit to select the weapon out of 5 randomly selected weapons instead. And/or you could make market bundles of 2 random riven mods for 50 plats and stop being crazy by downgrading the slot prices to 30 per 3 slots instead of 60 per 3 slots.

Multiplying the plat sinks while being reasonable about them and still giving us CHOICES instead of RNG can perfectly work, both for the gameplay which matters to players and for money which matters to you.

 

Add ways to earn riven mods! Add choices to limit that RNG! We all posted about that, you have tons of ideas to choose from!

 

edit: not even talking about weapon balance, that's another (linked) big issue... let's stick to riven mods for a post... Reacting to those new riven mods.

 

 

second edit : and we are still at 15???? Not even 15 per category??? You're kidding us!?!?? After all the feedback, all the serious proposals, all the ideas, this is what you choose??

 

"Merry christmas", eh?

 

 

third edit : oh my god. And riven mods are now "uncommon" instead of "common". The only "common" thing is 2000 endo. This is a nightmare. A wonderful idea, transformed into this...

Edited by NewMilenium
besides, weapon balance...
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On 12/15/2016 at 7:40 AM, TheDefenestrater said:

Many players would like to see Kuva acquisition extended to the Kuva Fortress tileset in the form of cache, endless mission, or rare crate type rewards.  It makes sense from a lore perspective (they collect it elsewhere, store it in the fortress) and would incentivize many players to visit the Fortress more often.  It would also provide a gameplay alternative to the Kuva siphon mini-game and could even integrate kuva guards into ordinary gameplay.  With the current kuva alert system, getting kuva doesn't appear very limited in terms of quantity per hour achievable.  Balancing other sources against the kuva alerts would be important, though not very difficult.

I would like to second this. Either as a successful Spy mission reward1, a type of Cache2, or a special mission/boss type3 & 4, there should be some way to obtain Kuva from the Kuva Fortress that includes having to fight and/or sneak around Kuva Guards.

1) Spy Reward: As a reward for completing a Spy mission with all three vaults, you have a chance of a Kuva reward. Completing all three vaults with No Detection guarantees a Kuva reward, albeit a fairly small one.

2) A third-cache reward only. I am unsure how the Cache Rewards work, but (if possible) set Kuva as a reward for one of the caches only if you locate all three in a mission.

3) High-end Survival rewards: that's what the other Tenno are doing as we serve as a distraction.

4) Special Mission/Boss Type:

A) Unlock Types

Additional Mission: In return for completing all three vaults of a Spy mission, finding all three caches in a Sabotage or some additional above-and-beyond goal, you are told "Tenno, it seems the data you have collected has yielded the location of an open Kuva cache. You can go to it now, if you desire."

Field Boss-Style: You encounter a special Kuva Fortress-themed Field Boss (i.e. Queens' Royal Guard, a pair of Super-Guards), and on defeating them you either get a small amount of Kuva (basic idea), or a Kuva Key (see below)

B) Kuva Vault Ideas

I. Spy/Assault: Sneak or fight your way into a Kuva vault that is filled with the stuff, and in return receive a fixed reward.

II. Operator Infiltration: There is a Kuva Vault, but it has some sort of Warframe-paralyzing field at its entrance. You have to go into the Vault as the Operator, and fight/sneak/use machines and devices to get through. The "Vault" is actually a Kuva storage that is open for production, so the Kuva is being drained out of it. The faster you complete puzzles and/or stealth, the more Kuva you will receive. In addition, while you can use Transference to go in and out of your Warframe, when in the Vault your Warframe cannot move until you get to the Kuva deposit and turn off the paralyzer.

III. Other ideas involving the operator, possibly submerging yourself in Kuva. The longer you stay and stay hidden the more Kuva you get?

5) Kuva Key: Any of the other options in this post reward players with a Kuva Vault Key, that allows them to play a special, separate "raid the Kuva vault" mission, with a Vault Run similar to Maroo's at the end, and Kuva Guards as the main enemy.

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So we will have less of a chance to get a riven mod for a weapon that we actually care about?

How about doing the universal riven mod idea that is ubiquitous on the forums? This is frankly one of most agreed upon things on the forums, it is rather remarkable actually how quickly people have settled on it. More people have upvoted replies to this thread which concern this issue than they have upvoted the original post.

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On 12/14/2016 at 0:47 PM, [DE]Drew said:

As you may have already heard, we plan to include Secondary Rivens with our 19.5 update but if possible, we’ll also include Shotgun Rivens! Our current plan is to include these new Mods in the Sortie reward pool so that if you receive a Riven reward, it has a chance of being either a Rifle, Shotgun, or Secondary Riven. The exact chance for each is still being worked on. We do not plan to change the chance to receive a Riven Mod as a Sortie reward at this time. 
 

I believe that it would be far more player friendly if you would be so kind as to have a screen that pops up when we get a riven mod and then allow the player to select if it shall be for pistol,rifle,shotgun, or eventually melee. So now instead of having a pool of over 200 weapons that can be gotten from one sortie the player has a choice to cut taht to something specific. The secondaries are cool but there is still a crowd that wants rifle riven. However this will also cater to players that want a secondary riven. Another idea I am sure has been stated before is to make the veiled riven universal and slapping it on the weapon type dictates what it turns into.

 

Give players choice, we appreciate that more and will stay longer. too much RNG makes a chore out of your magnificent game, who likes chores? 

choice > chance

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1) I'm really trying to follow the train of thought, but, to be honest, I'm lost:

Why rivens exist:

On 15.11.2016 at 0:04 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We want to give players something unique to them that can speak to their wider Arsenal. We want to give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way.

Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style. [...] What they can do is add an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon in order to encourage players to think outside of that meta box.

This is why we have prevented players from choosing what weapon the Riven Mod will be for;

We have started to add quirks to weapons, as shown with the recent Syndicate Melees, and this is supposed to be a continuation of that train of though [...]

It was stated in this thread before: Adding % stats to average weapons won't help that much - when considering riven disposition underpowered weapons might break even with 'meta weapons' but considering the chances and the amout of work involved in a godlike roll the saver bet seems to be a meager meta riven (I'll make this point below again..).

Now to the point that is puzzling me the most:

On 5.12.2016 at 11:51 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

2) Why the Capacity exists at all?
There are many reasons we started with a 15 Riven Mod Capacity, but the most important for future Riven conversations is the database impact storing Riven Mods has. As many of you have begin amassing collections, we can begin to see what will be scalable for the system across all future Weapon types.

 

On 14.12.2016 at 7:47 PM, [DE]Drew said:

So why limit initial capacity to 15 and why sell a bundle for more? In our first Riven workshop we stated that the maximum is a reflection of our desire to encourage creativity and choice. We want each Riven in your collection to be carefully considered. Should you keep it, dissolve it, or trade it? Maybe you choose to focus on Rivens for more powerful weapons, or since those are already capable, maybe you’re a curator of the more obscure weapon Rivens. 

The point in limiting capacity is meaningful selection rather than a ubiquitous collection.

(/em by me)

When I have to carefully consider which riven to keep, I wont hope for a godlike riven that might make a Braton as good as a Soma but will try to improve the Soma which is already performing well. This seems to be a no brainer - so: Is the 15 mod capacity a design or a technical issue?

If rivens would add quirks, like Rebecca mentioned, we wouldn't be talking about power creep. (i.e. People are using the Secura Lecta although it hasn't godlike stats)

 

 

 

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How about simply grant us a 0-kuva cycle option for veiled riven mods to switch what weapon group they're for? Once unveiled they'd be set to their weapon like normal.

That could be a way for everyone to be happy with it, and a seamless mechanism for the arrival of melee rivens whenever you guys get around to those too.

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On 14.12.2016 at 7:47 PM, [DE]Drew said:

In our first Riven workshop we stated that the maximum is a reflection of our desire to encourage creativity and choice.

So in order to encourage creativity and choice you limit the amount we can choose from to 15 and then charge almost 5€ for 3 additional slots, making us either choose the very best Rivens we can get our hands on (and thus eliminating the freedom of choice) or spend shyteloads of cash

this is the most laughable "excuse" I have ever seen from any game developer.

Edited by SFTT.Lightning
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2 hours ago, SFTT.Lightning said:

So in order to encourage creativity and choice you limit the amount we can choose from to 15 and then charge almost 5€ for 3 additional slots, making us either choose the very best Rivens we can get our hands on (and thus eliminating the freedom of choice) or spend shyteloads of cash

this is the most laughable "excuse" I have ever seen from any game developer.

They didnt limit the number of Rivens to limit creativity. They limited them because of the unfathomable strain the number of permutations Rivens puts on the system. The only thing more laughable than excuses is your ignorance.

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