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Suddenly I have a lot more of understanding of how DE develop Warframe (video inside)


Artekkor
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6 minutes ago, xFrostKnightx said:

The video pretty much describes de. Though it was already evident as this was brought up 2 years ago regarding how de back at that time were addressing the game as poorly as they are now. I also believe Totalbiscuit addressed this too a long time ago, "Ruins, built upon ruins, built upon ruins". 

You listed two "Story" driven games. Story games are a one time experience. CS:GO... have you checked steam stats yet? Not to your taste but non-story based game survive long and very easily.

Probably i didn't clear myself when saying that popular competitive games get such attention to. Emphasis on "competitive".
Because nobody likes when you are get killed by something that is way too overpowered or even a little bit broken. That's why they require just as much attention to quality as a one-time story driven game.

Warframe is not story driven (at least for now) nor its competitive (conclave is there just for fun and most people probably just farm standing for conclave skins).
So... Its not the same as previously mentioned games.

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5 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Which resources are you referring to?

Before Kuva, the last new resource that I can think of is Nitain, which was introduced over nine months ago.

Kuva, Nitain, Telerium, Cryotic, Oxium.
All of these were introduced as the game progressed at some point.

Also Argon Crystal exists. The only resource in the whole game that never hyper-inflates because expiring mechanic prevents us from stockpiling it.

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3 hours ago, Artek94 said:

What, someone posted it before? If yes - then i'm sorry. But i felt like it was something worth of spreading.
It's much easier to live with knowledge of how something works instead of going "this @#$%^ is broken, they have no idea what they're doing" (even though its actually you who don't get the bigger picture)

It was posted 4 times the day it came out and about every 3 days since. 

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Your post also implies DE only follows accretion, and never refines or updates old content, which rather inaccurate. Yes, they are constantly adding new systems, but they are also constantly refining or outright replacing old systems, which is the antithesis of accretion.

In the end DE continues to try to walk the line between providing new content AND refining old content. Sometimes they only work on the new, sometimes they only work on the old. Just look at SotR, that was all about refining and changing old content and improving the new player experience.

Edited by Gelkor
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1 minute ago, Artek94 said:

Probably i didn't clear myself when saying that popular competitive games get such attention to. Emphasis on "competitive".
Because nobody likes when you are get killed by something that is way too overpowered or even a little bit broken. That's why they require just as much attention to quality as a one-time story driven game.

Warframe is not story driven (at least for now) nor its competitive (conclave is there just for fun and most people probably just farm standing for conclave skins).
So... Its not the same as previously mentioned games.

Story driven in the sense de lets us nibble and then takes it away. They won't ever give us the story because it is the end goal for players especially older players, everything else pathes the way so we don't lose interest and consider the story not worth sticking around for. Take for example TWW, everything between TSD and TWW was just distractions and fodder, when we got tww thousands of vets came back to warframe and player count went up by 50 thousand for a total of 70-75 thoudand players. The meat of the game, the desire is the story. The reason why i say this is because what the video describes is something de fails to do correctly, they try to go half-half and fail at both. So while other games can throw more junk on, de can't make up their mind if they want us to be unstoppable demi-gods or if they want balance. 

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4 minutes ago, xFrostKnightx said:

Story driven in the sense de lets us nibble and then takes it away. They won't ever give us the story because it is the end goal for players especially older players, everything else pathes the way so we don't lose interest and consider the story not worth sticking around for. Take for example TWW, everything between TSD and TWW was just distractions and fodder, when we got tww thousands of vets came back to warframe and player count went up by 50 thousand for a total of 70-75 thoudand players. The meat of the game, the desire is the story. The reason why i say this is because what the video describes is something de fails to do correctly, they try to go half-half and fail at both. So while other games can throw more junk on, de can't make up their mind if they want us to be unstoppable demi-gods or if they want balance. 

I'm pretty sure that the whole point is that Warframe's lore is "alive" and moves forward. For the longest time the whole lore thing was barely to non-existent. Couple of events there and there and that's it. And they were not even "lore" they were just things happening in the game's world like Grineer and Corpus barking at each other.

The real "lore" (pre-history of things most importantly) was introduced only relatively recently. Things like Simmaris' imprint scans (which were forgotten too, sadly...), hidden lore pieces in warframe's codex entries (prime ones in particular, at least that's the case for Ember and Rhino and i'm pretty sure those things were not there originally but added later).

So DE started playing with the lore only recently, when they finally committed to whatever they came up with.
TWW's major reason of delays was the fact that the script was re-written and changed multiple times so you can see that they are still unsure with the direction of story, but they're getting there.

But yes, Lore is probably one of the biggest things now, although i'm sure  there are plenty of people who don't care.

 

Regarding "where DE falls shortly" i don't think video showed any good examples. The only example was a picture of vending machine with awesome gear which required "RAD $$$" - heavy reference to P2W or paywalls in general i suppose - which is not the case in Warframe right now.
Well and the whole "complexity for newer players" and "bad / non existent tutorials" which are present in Warframe but they are not much of an issue for us, experienced players.

Unless you were only referring to DE "not able to make up their minds" which is a topic for another discussion in which i wont participate because i don't have a general opinion on the matter because i don't have any decent ideas to implement that would make the game one way or the other without breaking something.

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29 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

Your post also implies DE only follows accretion, and never refines or updates old content, which rather inaccurate. Yes, they are constantly adding new systems, but they are also constantly refining or outright replacing old systems, which is the antithesis of accretion.

In the end DE continues to try to walk the line between providing new content AND refining old content. Sometimes they only work on the new, sometimes they only work on the old. Just look at SotR, that was all about refining and changing old content and improving the new player experience.

I never tried to imply that they don't work on older content at all, but they work on it so slow that you don't feel any progress.

Focus hasn't been changed at all (Unairu still sucks butt and does not reflect the description), Simaris' lore hunting was abandoned for a long time now, Warframes that are in desperate need of reworks or buffs are still where they are, intentions to rework old generic bosses and give them a new life slowed down (where is Nef Anyo bossfight?). Those are the things that i can come up with for now.

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25 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

 

Regarding "where DE falls shortly" i don't think video showed any good examples. The only example was a picture of vending machine with awesome gear which required "RAD $$$" - heavy reference to P2W or paywalls in general i suppose - which is not the case in Warframe right now.
Well and the whole "complexity for newer players" and "bad / non existent tutorials" which are present in Warframe but they are not much of an issue for us, experienced players.

Unless you were only referring to DE "not able to make up their minds" which is a topic for another discussion in which i wont participate because i don't have a general opinion on the matter because i don't have any decent ideas to implement that would make the game one way or the other without breaking something.

Resource is the currency in warframe, like credits which De never "replaced" and can only eliviate the problem by making huge credit sinks.  
Oxium, Argon, Tellurium, Kuva, Nitian. Even some mods are locked behind elixirs that come from the spectres, which only are craftable with plants found on 4 hours earth cycles Night/day. "Judgment points" which locked more content behind a new resource. But de can only add so much given that there are only so many places they can stick new "currency".  You'd be hard pressed to find an old player who isnt carrying hundreds of rare resources, which makes these worthless resources, as indicated by the hostility towards Nitian as it no longer has value.  

The whole making up their mind thing is more so, "Heres power creep content... but we're going to have to dismember your legs to keep it balanced". This is mostly in regards to de not deciding, are we unstoppable or are we limited in what we can do. Maple story/Dynasty warriors/Dead rising/Dying light. What these all have in common is you're powerful. Do these games have anything like invulnerability? No they don't, they want us to be able to be powerful.  Now back to warframe, de dosn't want us to be powerful despite giving us powerful items, but at the same time they don't want the game to be balanced and take skill because it would take too long and too much effort to code, so rather than let us be power horses, they trap us in the middle. This is where I get my opinion that de dosn't know what they even want to do, which is further proven that they dont even know what their own story is. This is shown with every time they add something, it's almost as if they don't even know what it is themselves and players tend to question if de even plays their own game because everything added is random. 

Edited by xFrostKnightx
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7 minutes ago, xFrostKnightx said:

-snip-

Good points and for once i didn't felt salt vapors from your post (i suppose you didn't intended those, but it felt like it.)

Probably the only thing i have a comment on is how "random" new stuff is.

For that i simply imagine myself being a developer and in the same spot as DE. You have a game that you made, not just made but which you wanted to make forever, a game that you dreamed about. So what do you do then? You slap every single thing you think is "cool" and "awesome" on it once it comes up in your mind.

Unlike most developers - DE have their hands free and can do whatever the want to and that's exactly what they do, they're like "hey, wouldn't it be awesome if X and Y and then Z?" and then the rest of the office is like "heck yeah" and they make that and add that.
I just feel i would do the same in their position. It sounds kinda childish but it is how i imagine it is.
And Steve looks and acts like a man-child indeed, so we kinda have a proof of that?...

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I feel like this is more attributable to games that have useless mechanics like professions (fishing, mining, etc), stuff "to do" that isn't actually the gameplay. Or, games with characters that have to be independently leveled through the story (imagine if you had to clear the starchart with each Warframe), yet they keep releasing new characters.

Every new feature that Warframe introduces is just to get you to play. New mods, new mission types, new rewards; they all circle back to the same thing. Do missions.

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4 hours ago, Kukukatchoo said:

Every new feature that Warframe introduces is just to get you to play. New mods, new mission types, new rewards; they all circle back to the same thing. Do missions.

But that's exactly the point.
Constantly reintroducing new content that does not in any way takes away (or ignores) the core gameplay.
Which is killing stuff, in warframe that is. New guns makes you kill more stuff, new mods make you kill more stulf, etc etc etc.

Its all cycles back to the core.

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1 minute ago, Artek94 said:

But that's exactly the point.
Constantly reintroducing new content that does not in any way takes away (or ignores) the core gameplay.
Which is killing stuff, in warframe that is. New guns makes you kill more stuff, new mods make you kill more stulf, etc etc etc.

Its all cycles back to the core.

Warframe really has two 'cores', killing stuff and FashionFrame.

Anything added to the game should be in service of those two types of gameplay, anything else is just a distraction from what Warframe really is, at least for me.

(Note: Quests and lore give context to the killing of stuff, I'm totally fine with more of those.)

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