The Cernos Prime, marriage of two classes of Flaws

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

33 minutes ago, Xebov said:

About your Dread Riven: +88% and +90% are 178% Multishot. Which means you always shoot 2 arrows and have a 78% chance of shooting a 3rd one. You might not see the 3rd one due to arrows sticking inside each other.

 

You have no idea how this all works.

1.) Heavy Caliber has no accuracy penalty because Cernos Prime has a fixed arrow spread, meaning the arrows will always land in the same way no matter how much accuracy you have. It doesnt matter how much arrows you finally have as all arrows get intigrated into this fixed pattern.

 

2.) Split Chamber and its +Multishot and a Riven with -Multishot will counter each other. I dont know how they are exactly calculated internally, but your idea to reduce the number of arrows to 1 and then clone that arrow to turn it into a normal bow does not work. And no you cant change the way the base damage is distributed, if you remove innate arrows you will also loose their damage.

Ok. I understand 😞

Edited December 18, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[fr4gb4ll]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

So basically the question was:

can u get cernos prime to only fire 1 arrow (via riven mod) then add split chamber and heavy cal with no penalty to accuracy? 

no, i don't think you can - the cernos prime multiarrow seems to be static build in - but feel free to correct me if have a rivenmod that have a multishot malus. but your question is valid, for i think the damage would indeed stays the same and into less arrows (or one if that would be possible) - and the reason i think so is the same why i think you can't reduce the amount: the number of arrows is static, and so is the base damage apointed to them - like some people pointed out already, the multishot mods only duplicates the given projectiles... and their damage too. well, enough theory until we can actually test it for real ^.^

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, fr4gb4ll said:

no, i don't think you can - the cernos prime multiarrow seems to be static build in - but feel free to correct me if have a rivenmod that have a multishot malus. but your question is valid, for i think the damage would indeed stays the same and into less arrows (or one if that would be possible) - and the reason i think so is the same why i think you can't reduce the amount: the number of arrows is static, and so is the base damage apointed to them - like some people pointed out already, the multishot mods only duplicates the given projectiles... and their damage too. well, enough theory until we can actually test it for real ^.^

yes thank you

[NeonNemesis]

I feel like this bow should use shotgun mods rather than rifle ones, I mean this is designed as a sort of shotgun-bow, shotguns have the mods to control the spread which is the biggest issue with this bow.

There are also mods like chilling reload that help with his reload/charge time issue without having to spend 2 mod slots to solve this.

 

[Hixlysss]

Okay, just started leveling the cernos prime, I am at a loss as to figuring out what DE's plan with this weapon was when they made it. First off...horizontal spread, so it's meant to hit multiple targets, but it only does 120 damage per arrow at base, that's as low as the mk1-paris...Just wow. So It was a bow made for hitting multiple targets, but not doing a lot of damage per hit, so it should be able to rapidly fire and be a DPS bow? Nope, it has a low charge rate, so that idea is scrapped, it has the charge rate of a more 'heavy hitter' kind of bow.
Let's not forget the reload rate, which is how fast you put the arrow back on the thing to fire again, this is also VERY slow compared to every other bow, thus lowering the weapon's DPS by a noticable amount. 

So it's not a DPS bow because it's fire rate is too low, it's not a heavy hitter because it's damage per arrow is too low plus the horizontal spread makes it hard to land all the hits on a single target unless point blank, and if you are point blank it's fire rate is still to low, specially when comparing to shotguns. All around, the weapon is just...bad, specially for a prime.

But let's move on to how to fix this weapon, because it does have flaws. First, we could increase it's charge speed/reload speed to make it a DPS/Close Range bow. Second, keep the reload/charge speed as is and increase it's damage per arrow. And with either of these changes, the weapon needs a QoL change of adding the alt fire allowing you to change the 'spread' of the arrows, either vertical or horizontal.

[Sennera]

On 12/17/2016 at 7:53 PM, Xebov said:

2.) Split Chamber and its +Multishot and a Riven with -Multishot will counter each other. I dont know how they are exactly calculated internally, but your idea to reduce the number of arrows to 1 and then clone that arrow to turn it into a normal bow does not work. And no you cant change the way the base damage is distributed, if you remove innate arrows you will also loose their damage.

It's calculated additively. If you put -70% multishot on this thing, then add +90% multishot, you have a net gain of +20% multishot so you'd maybe get... 4 arrows every few shots? I'm not sure about that.

Anyway I've never actually seen this bow used around me, which is a first for a new prime weapon so that speaks volumes already. Sounds to me like it needs its base damage boosted, or the innate multishot needs a rework.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Sennera

[SquireAngel]

8 minutes ago, Sennera said:

It's calculated additively. If you put -70% multishot on this thing, then add +90% multishot, you have a net gain of +20% multishot so you'd maybe get... 4 arrows every few shots? I'm not sure about that.

Anyway I've never actually seen this bow used around me, which is a first for a new prime weapon so that speaks volumes already. Sounds to me like it needs its base damage boosted, or the innate multishot needs a rework.

It's the multishot mechanic. The base dmg itself is actually higher than any other bow, but the Multishot distributes it to extremely low for a bow. The Multishot takes the biggest point of damage for a bow and doesn't give it a strong enough mechanic to make up for it.

[Sennera]

Just now, SquireAngel said:

It's the multishot mechanic. The base dmg itself is actually higher than any other bow, but the Multishot distributes it to extremely low for a bow. The Multishot takes the biggest point of damage for a bow and doesn't give it a strong enough mechanic to make up for it.

Then they're using the 'shotgun method' of damage distribution (stats split evenly over projectiles), which is so obviously a HUGE mistake that I can't fathom why they're not taking care of it.

[SquireAngel]

Just now, Sennera said:

Then they're using the 'shotgun method' of damage distribution (stats split evenly over projectiles), which is so obviously a HUGE mistake that I can't fathom why they're not taking care of it.

Their last gambit of the year is pumping out the ghast gambit, so I'm sure it's taking their attention. I could be wrong and they're just like LOLGOODENOUGH but I feel like we'll be seeing an adjustment of some kind eventually.

[Sennera]

1 minute ago, SquireAngel said:

Their last gambit of the year is pumping out the ghast gambit, so I'm sure it's taking their attention. I could be wrong and they're just like LOLGOODENOUGH but I feel like we'll be seeing an adjustment of some kind eventually.

I sure hope so. Since I feel it'd be worth reading by anyone complaining about under-performing weapons, I'm going to shamelessly plug a post I made in another thread talking a little about the dev team's history of handling player feedback on them:

 

[Xebov]

31 minutes ago, Sennera said:

It's calculated additively. If you put -70% multishot on this thing, then add +90% multishot, you have a net gain of +20% multishot so you'd maybe get... 4 arrows every few shots? I'm not sure about that.

I dont know, because -damage gets calculated in after all otehr effects are calculated. So it would be possible that its (3+90%)-70% or 3+(90-70%).

 

31 minutes ago, Sennera said:

Anyway I've never actually seen this bow used around me, which is a first for a new prime weapon so that speaks volumes already. Sounds to me like it needs its base damage boosted, or the innate multishot needs a rework.

The damage per arrow is relatively low and the spread mechanic make its use unreliable as you need to have certain distances to be effective.

[Inarticulate]

Heavy Caliber does affect the Cernos Prime, but not very much. Because the arrows always fire in a fixed pattern, the reduced accuracy from Heavy Caliber moves the entire pattern instead of affecting arrows individually, but the amount that the pattern moves is very, very small (less than 5% of the width of the spread).

The Cernos Prime doesn't technically have innate multishot; it has a base "pellet" count of 3. Multishot affects the number of projectiles fired by the Cernos Prime exactly as it affects a shotgun (status chance per arrow is also calculated in the same way as with a shotgun). Adding or subtracting arrows with multishot does not affect the damage done by an individual arrow; it simply increases or decreases the number of arrows.

Because the width of the arrow pattern is fixed, it is beneficial to increase multishot on the Cernos Prime because it increases the density of the pattern, meaning more arrows will hit the same target from the same distance.

35 minutes ago, Xebov said:

I dont know, because -damage gets calculated in after all otehr effects are calculated. So it would be possible that its (3+90%)-70% or 3+(90-70%).

All mods affecting the same stat are added to each other. (Addition and subtraction are also commutative and associative, and therefore, it doesn't matter what order you apply them or how you group them.)

Because the Cernos Prime has a "pellet" count of 3 (and not innate multishot of +200%), the number of arrows fired is:

• 3 x (1 + 90% - 70%)
• = 3 x (1.2)
• = 3.6

meaning it has a 40% chance of firing 3 arrows and a 60% chance of firing 4 arrows.

[DatDarkOne]

I love using bows.  I love the look of the Cernos Prime and that's where it stops.  I don't like using it.  I even found that even using it for fashion frame effects targeting with secondaries because the spikes are in the way. 

Overall I would have preferred a Daikyu Prime instead of another Cernos variant.  A simple direct upgrade to Daikyu in the form of a Prime version would have been AWESOME.  I'm normally happy with most things DE does.  The Cernos Prime isn't one of them. 

[Xebov]

28 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

All mods affecting the same stat are added to each other. (Addition and subtraction are also commutative and associative, and therefore, it doesn't matter what order you apply them or how you group them.)

Thats not true for Rivens. It seems that at least some negative values on Rivens are calculated in as last element. -Damage is a good example for this. Take a weapon with Serration (+165% Damage) and a Riven with, lets say -120% Damage. You would assume that both values are calculated together to result in +45% damage. In reality Serration is calculated in first and the Riven last resulting in a total Damage of 0 (or in this case even a minus value). Im not sure if Multishot is calculated the same way.

[Inarticulate]

3 minutes ago, Xebov said:

Thats not true for Rivens. It seems that at least some negative values on Rivens are calculated in as last element. -Damage is a good example for this. Take a weapon with Serration (+165% Damage) and a Riven with, lets say -120% Damage. You would assume that both values are calculated together to result in +45% damage. In reality Serration is calculated in first and the Riven last resulting in a total Damage of 0 (or in this case even a minus value). Im not sure if Multishot is calculated the same way.

Can you find a screenshot that shows that this is indeed the case?

Edited December 20, 2016 by Inarticulate

[Xebov]

22 hours ago, Inarticulate said:

Can you find a screenshot that shows that this is indeed the case?

Sadly i couldnt find any. Im sure i saw them when Rivens got introduced, but cant find them again.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

There's a build(4 forma) that allows the cernos prime to kill a corrupt bombard(lvl100) in 10 shots(60 arrows with MS)

this makes the thing perfectly viable against anything lvl 100 and lower at the very least.

 

in contrast, my crit built rakta cernos took 20 arrows.

both tests were done focusing fire on the head.

 

cernos prime is still vastly superior damage wise(don't need fire rate when you take half as many shots to kill something.)

[AcceptYourDeath]

Has anybody mentioned the middle arrow which COULD net you reliable damage on Cernos Prime is completly off center? With or without Split Chamber the middle arrow is one half of the crosshair circle away from the target in Simulacrum. Aiming with the center point will  only hit with a split-off arrow on thes kind of range (Simulacrum.)

Did they playtest this bow? "Oh yeah this is good the aim is completly off.....put it in!"

Edited December 22, 2016 by AcceptYourDeath

[----Fenrir----]

I'm really confused by the Cernos Prime. I tested it and simply could not figure out what it's intended purpose is supposed to be. It's terrible in the classical bow role because it's single target damage and performance at mid to long range are awful. And at short range with that wide arrow spread and the horrendous long charge and reload times it fails to measure up to even mid level shotguns, let alone something like the Tigris Prime. I simply could not find anything this bow is good at.

 

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)InfernusXcanis said:

There's a build(4 forma) that allows the cernos prime to kill a corrupt bombard(lvl100) in 10 shots(60 arrows with MS)

this makes the thing perfectly viable against anything lvl 100 and lower at the very least.

 

in contrast, my crit built rakta cernos took 20 arrows.

The difference is that with the Cernos Prime you have to stand right in front of the target (~1m), while with the Rakta Cernos you can attack from range. And the Rakta Cernos still kills way faster because in the time it takes the Prime to fire once, the Rakra fires 3 to 4 times because of the much shorter charge and reload times.

Add in the time required to close the distance to the target with the Prime version, not to mention that it's not without risk to go into melee range against level ~100 enemies, and the speed advantage of the Rakta Cernos becomes even larger.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

2 minutes ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

I'm really confused by the Cernos Prime. I tested it and simply could not figure out what it's intended purpose is supposed to be. It's terrible in the classical bow role because it's single target damage and performance at mid to long range are awful. And at short range with that wide arrow spread and the horrendous long charge and reload times it fails to measure up to even mid level shotguns, let alone something like the Tigris Prime. I simply could not find anything this bow is good at.

 

The difference is that with the Cernos Prime you have to stand right in front of the target (~1m), while with the Rakta Cernos you can attack from range. And the Rakta Cernos still kills way faster because in the time it takes the Prime to fire once, the Rakra fires 3 to 4 times because of the much shorter charge and reload times.

Add in the time required to close the distance to the target with the Prime version, not to mention that it's not without risk to go into melee range against level ~100 enemies, and the speed advantage of the Rakta Cernos becomes even larger.

My loki prime straight up makes closing distance moot. And no, during my test I didn't need to sit 1m away.

my build stayed effective up to roughly 50m.

unless im using my zephyr, who is my designated SNIPER, I'm rarely over 50m from an enemy at any given time. This means my cernos prime build is actually more viable than my rakta cernos right now.

heavy cal

serration

speed trigger(.45)

point strike

vital sense

split chamber

infested clip

stormbringer.

^ that right there makes anything less than level 60 dead before they know i'm there. And I don't even need all the arrows to do it.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

I just installed a Riven on my cernos prime with 90% more multi shot it shoots 12 arrows at once. thats 11k corrosive and 7k impact. I don't have any problems with Sortie 3 enemies. Im Two shoting 100 bombards heavy gunners and take out a few others as well. 

Now with that said It shoots 10 arrows at once horizontally with 78% more multi shot. Once I got the 90% multi shot on my Riven Cernos and installed it, it did somthing cool and alittle peculiar. The game stacks them 6 horizontally by 6 horizontally on top of each other (example -(^^^^^^) (The line in the parentheses  is the second set of arrows stacked underneath and slightly of center.) Its kinda OP and pretty much just a street sweeper. Especially to infested.

*Also u can shoot some nifty looking plus signs (+) shots with Ivara. 

 edit: still can't seem to roll a negative multi shot. I need another cernos for scientific purposes because I wont be re rolling the one i have to test a negative multi 😔                              

Edited December 22, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Xebov]

7 hours ago, (Xbox One)InfernusXcanis said:

There's a build(4 forma) that allows the cernos prime to kill a corrupt bombard(lvl100) in 10 shots(60 arrows with MS)

this makes the thing perfectly viable against anything lvl 100 and lower at the very least.

 

in contrast, my crit built rakta cernos took 20 arrows.

both tests were done focusing fire on the head.

 

cernos prime is still vastly superior damage wise(don't need fire rate when you take half as many shots to kill something.)

Cernos Prime fires once every 2s. Rakta Cernos once every 0.85s. Cernos Prime requires close range while Rakta Cernos can use range to deal the full damage. And im honest, if i have to get to 1m distance to kill an enemy with a bow i can as well pop my melee weapon and beat him down in half the time (thats no joke, i realy do this).

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

3 hours ago, Xebov said:

Cernos Prime fires once every 2s. Rakta Cernos once every 0.85s. Cernos Prime requires close range while Rakta Cernos can use range to deal the full damage. And im honest, if i have to get to 1m distance to kill an enemy with a bow i can as well pop my melee weapon and beat him down in half the time (thats no joke, i realy do this).

Look up a couple posts to see my reply to that claim 

[Xebov]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)InfernusXcanis said:

Look up a couple posts to see my reply to that claim 

The world doesnt consist out of cloaked Lokis that simply walk by. And even if you can close the gap with him, every Shotgun will still be way more effective when it comes to killing speed and every melee weapon.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

2 minutes ago, Xebov said:

The world doesnt consist out of cloaked Lokis that simply walk by. And even if you can close the gap with him, every Shotgun will still be way more effective when it comes to killing speed and every melee weapon.

That's not the point.

the point of this build is that it still makes the weapon viable up to lvl 100 enemies at least.