New Anti-Aliasing Method

[JackTrades]

I would like to request for DE to put back the old anti-aliasing method from before the last patch, the one that was named "Temporal + SMAA (Preview)".

 

The latest patch removed that anti-aliasing option and replaced it with a new one, called "TAA 8x".

The problem is that while the old method was one of the best post-processing AA methods I've ever seen, the new one barely manages to cover all the aliasing and it looks incredibly badly, which is why I would like to at least have an option to use the old anti-aliasing option that was removed with the latest patch.

[Myscho]

TAA x8 works mediocre need to enable motion blur, without motion blur is very bad

[FierceRadiance]

Last night I noticed some kind of frame "jump", where every few seconds the screen 'shook', or 'jumped'. Simply standing still even, the visual frame stuttered every few seconds. My assumption last night was it was some kind of processor allocation bug involving some other running process on my machine.  Might it be related to this new system instead?

[JackTrades]

1 hour ago, Myscho said:

TAA x8 works mediocre need to enable motion blur, without motion blur is very bad

TAA x8 works pretty badly even with motion blur turned on. It completely fails to covers a lot of aliased edges.

[smurfynet]

I also liked the old option much more, TAA looks crappy even more crap than SMAA

[Gulftown]

On 22.12.2016 at 5:56 PM, FierceRadiance said:

Last night I noticed some kind of frame "jump", where every few seconds the screen 'shook', or 'jumped'. Simply standing still even, the visual frame stuttered every few seconds. My assumption last night was it was some kind of processor allocation bug involving some other running process on my machine.  Might it be related to this new system instead?

I'm having these as well. Also that new anti aliasing causes constant flickering of lightning. 

[NyreenKandros]

Yeah agreed. SMAA+Temporal implementation was nice.

Also, I hope they add a render scale option for anti-aliasing just like in Battlefield 4 / 1 and ABZU. (SSAA)

[TaylorsContraction]

Whatever the new AA system they implemented is, it makes my game extremely blurry on the edges. It smoothes edges to the point of blurriness. My game looks better now with AA disabled, it's nice and crisp. It was so much better before though, I think whatever this new AA they are implementing is, needs more work before it's ready.

[JackTrades]

I just wish they would at least bring back the old AA method and give me the option. Because the old method look SO good and the new one is just awful.

[White_Matter]

Move the slider towards right(not all the way, more like 70%) and you get a similar feel to the old smaa + temporal option. I actually think this might be better.

 

[JackTrades]

11 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Move the slider towards right(not all the way, more like 70%) and you get a similar feel to the old smaa + temporal option. I actually think this might be better.

That is definitely NOT the case.

It is similar but there are plenty of parts where the new AA method misses aliased edges completely unlike the old method.

This is the examples that instantly stood out to me.

It may not look like much in the screenshot but in motion it looks incredibly jarring.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Starjacked

[MillbrookWest]

On 1/7/2017 at 0:52 AM, Starjacked said:

It may not look like much in the screenshot but in motion it looks incredibly jarring.

That's counter to how TAA works. The reason Dev studio's use TAA is because unlike SMAA, and FXAA, its coverage in motion is almost unrivalled. You'd need Supersampling to go beyond - At least at this point in time.

The implementation could have a few bugs, which would be best to report. But as for the TAA versions, the new version is almost identical to the last version, accept with support for a sharpening filter (of which DE have implemented an adjustable slider). The actual temporal component looks almost identical.

On 1/7/2017 at 0:52 AM, Starjacked said:

Temporal AA, or any AA for that matter cannot work with information that isn't already present. You've zoomed in quite a bit to get those examples (well over 200%) and in both cases, it looks like a low resolution alpha mask is the cause of the issue, and not a polygonal edge (or high contrast edge). If you look over to the other side of the picture you'll see that the temporal component is working well where you don't get high contrast alpha on alpha issues.

As an example outside of Warframe:

Image on the left has a low res alpha technique, whereas the one on the right is the same technique, but corrected without using AA (notice the grey line remain 'jaggy' on both). This is likely where DE's issue in this regard lie. But even when corrected, there are areas where the pixel still shows the 'wrong' colour (if you will). SMAA and FXAA would only exacerbate this particular issue, but as posted above, TAA would resolve the problem when the scene started moving since it would have additional samples for its coverage.

TAA isn't perfect. It's a post AA technique, so it has its limitations.

Edited January 8, 2017 by MillbrookWest

[JackTrades]

18 hours ago, MillbrookWest said:

Temporal AA, or any AA for that matter cannot work with information that isn't already present. You've zoomed in quite a bit to get those examples (well over 200%) and in both cases, it looks like a low resolution alpha mask is the cause of the issue, and not a polygonal edge (or high contrast edge). If you look over to the other side of the picture you'll see that the temporal component is working well where you don't get high contrast alpha on alpha issues.

I in fact did not zoom in at all. I just cropped the screenshots you provided at their original resolution.

I still don't agree with you that the new method is the same as the old one. It definitely is inferior to old one because it does absolutely nothing about some of the aliased edged.

Here is the perfect example of what I'm talking about when it comes to aliased edged (TAA sharpening is at 50%, the default value.):

Those aliased artifacts DID NOT appear with the old version of Warframe's TAA method.

 

Here's the specific comparison:

The old TAA method:

The new TAA method:

 

You can clearly see the aliasing when the game is using the new method.

[MillbrookWest]

5 hours ago, Starjacked said:

Here's the specific comparison:

The old TAA method:

The new TAA method:

 

You can clearly see the aliasing when the game is using the new method.

I think you might have set the compression for those images a little too low? I can't see what you are pointing out, the images look identical. The highlight over the Tonkor especially is highly affected by Jpeg compression artefacts - Use .PNG instead if your software is automatically setting an imposed compression level.

But if you are pointing out minor differences, the newer implementation resolves the pixel crawl on the grating texture behind Inoros' head better, but that is a real nitpick ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

5 hours ago, Starjacked said:

Here is the perfect example of what I'm talking about when it comes to aliased edged (TAA sharpening is at 50%, the default value.):

Those aliased artifacts DID NOT appear with the old version of Warframe's TAA method.

I don't think you understood the issues with the way alpha effects are resolved. This is exactly the same as the image i posted above with the smoke (you can literally see the exact same thing happening in the example, and in the image above). Anything that is transparent, is an alpha effect, and computers hate transparencies.

I can tell you for a fact the issue you point out here has been in the game for a long time, and is even present if you supersample. 

I don't have an exact matching image since i don't have a lot of menu screenshots, but It's not a new issue, this was taken in November in the arsenal- Old TAA in effect, same menu texture:

The exact same issue resolving transparencies. between both implementations. This isn't a rendering artefact that AA resolves. 

But this is enough to show that the differences are next to minuscule. As i said, the actual temporal component wasn't really touched - DE_Steve talked about, and showed code for, his TAA implementation during his livestream.

Edited January 9, 2017 by MillbrookWest

[JackTrades]

1 hour ago, MillbrookWest said:

I think you might have set the compression for those images a little too low? I can't see what you are pointing out, the images look identical. The highlight over the Tonkor especially is highly affected by Jpeg compression artefacts - Use .PNG instead if your software is automatically setting an imposed compression level.

But if you are pointing out minor differences, the newer implementation resolves the pixel crawl on the grating texture behind Inoros' head better, but that is a real nitpick ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Here, I made a screenshot comparison just for you.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/196474

You have to be blind to not notice the difference in aliasing coverage between those two screenshots.

[MillbrookWest]

1 hour ago, Starjacked said:

Here, I made a screenshot comparison just for you.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/196474

You have to be blind to not notice the difference in aliasing coverage between those two screenshots.

I must be, because both images show pretty much the same limitations. The only way to tell any difference is to look at the image on a pixel level, and even then it just comes across as a biased opinion since both have very minor differences to the point of being indistinguishable (rendering issues notwithstanding).  The coverage on textures themselves looks better in the second one (with less stair stepping) which i would assume would be the post patch version. The sharpening filter appears to bring back some of the definition in the lighting lost with TAA ... But outside that, both show areas where coverage misses, but this should be expected. Post AA is not part of the render pipeline and happens after the fact (which is part of the reason the alpha from menu's can't be resolved). To me, it just looks like nitpicking, or even worse since you are purposefully going out of your way to identify pixel level imperfections, and then not even fairly at that. 

Point in case, you referenced something that was present before, and after the change... That's how minuscule the difference was/is.

You should probably watch Steve's stream. He talks quite in-depth about their TAA implementation, and their plans to keep improving it going forward. So really, it's a non-issue. It changed once, it'll change again. 

[White_Matter]

I only see the jaggy edges on sharp contrast areas. And you have to take into account that jpeg format reduces the overall visual quality. Everything looks better in game.