Auction House is really needed.

[Ninjacalypse]

1 minute ago, Askell91 said:

Every month a player from some random mmo pops up with "auction house is needed" tread..... auction house is a no go for warframe. It could destroy the economy. Just think about it a little.

Yeah, I keep hearing how it would "destroy the economy." But I don't hear any actual proof. And all of the things people would say would happen, like people buying up items and reselling them at higher prices, underselling, overselling, doomsday prophecies, etc. are all things that ALREADY happen and all things that people ALREADY do.

[ChuckMaverick]

Just now, Ninjacalypse said:

I'm still waiting for your proof that an in-game auction house would cause the game economy to crash. I think maybe you misunderstood what I meant when I say "proof." Proof as in actual evidence not proof as in speculation and unproven theories.

All forecasting is speculation, I'm surprised you don't understand that.

However mine is based on widely accepted economic theories, as you have agreed, so I'm not sure what further 'proof' you expect.

[Ninjacalypse]

Just now, ChuckMaverick said:

All forecasting is speculation, I'm surprised you don't understand that.

However mine is based on widely accepted economic theories, as you have agreed, so I'm not sure what further 'proof' you expect.

No, the real world economy already works in the way that you claim would cause the in-game economy to "crash."

[ChuckMaverick]

10 minutes ago, Ninjacalypse said:

No, the real world economy already works in the way that you claim would cause the in-game economy to "crash."

Just look at any article about the "coffee crisis" to see the effect of more convenient trading and oversupply on a market.

It took years and the whole "fair trade" movement for the industry to begin to recover from that disaster.

[Askell91]

16 minutes ago, Ninjacalypse said:

Yeah, I keep hearing how it would "destroy the economy." But I don't hear any actual proof. And all of the things people would say would happen, like people buying up items and reselling them at higher prices, underselling, overselling, doomsday prophecies, etc. are all things that ALREADY happen and all things that people ALREADY do.

It did... Diablo 3 did it. Go check it.

 

[Hypernaut1]

22 minutes ago, Ninjacalypse said:

Yeah, I keep hearing how it would "destroy the economy." But I don't hear any actual proof. And all of the things people would say would happen, like people buying up items and reselling them at higher prices, underselling, overselling, doomsday prophecies, etc. are all things that ALREADY happen and all things that people ALREADY do.

Yes, but an auction house makes it much easier to watch and hawk. It wouldn't' be buyer centric at all.

With the current system its real time. You don't get to compare to others, you don't see what gets sold.  Going after whales is much harder with this system, so that alone drops prices. 

People like to imagine that an auction house means that sellers will all rush to undercut each other, but that's not what happens with rare items. What happens is that those who hold out with their high prices eventually catch a whale or desperate player with their listings.

You think vaulted frames are expensive now, the prices would skyrocket with an auction house.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[Ninjacalypse]

3 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Just look at any article about the "coffee crisis" to see the effect of more convenient trading and oversupply on a market.

It took years and the whole "fair trade" movement for the industry to begin to recover from that disaster.

The "coffee crisis" was due to an influx of low quality coffee beans. There are no "low quality" items in Warframe. A Frost Prime will always have the same stats. A Nikana Prime will always have the same stats. A specific mod will always have the same stats. Even the worth of riven mods which are random will always be based on their stats. A crappy riven mod is a crappy riven mod. An influx of crappy riven mods wouldn't decrease the demand for GOOD ones.

2 minutes ago, Askell91 said:

It did... Diablo 3 did it. Go check it.

Oh wow...you have one example of a bad in-game auction house...out of a GAJILLION. The problem with the Diablo 3 auction house was the fact that Blizzard directly manipulated drop rates in-game because of the auction house. Directly introducing a real world cash economy into the auction house also caused their problems.

[Askell91]

2 minutes ago, Ninjacalypse said:

The "coffee crisis" was due to an influx of low quality coffee beans. There are no "low quality" items in Warframe. A Frost Prime will always have the same stats. A Nikana Prime will always have the same stats. A specific mod will always have the same stats. Even the worth of riven mods which are random will always be based on their stats. A crappy riven mod is a crappy riven mod. An influx of crappy riven mods wouldn't decrease the demand for GOOD ones.

Oh wow...you have one example of a bad in-game auction house...out of a GAJILLION. The problem with the Diablo 3 auction house was the fact that Blizzard directly manipulated drop rates in-game because of the auction house. Directly introducing a real world cash economy into the auction house also caused their problems.

Dude... did i give you the answear for your question? Yes. Than could you stop White Knighting? Thanks. Have a nice day.

[Vali]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/5iypgg/an_explanation_as_to_why_de_will_not_implement_an/

 

/thread. 

[Ninjacalypse]

2 minutes ago, Askell91 said:

Dude... did i give you the answear for your question? Yes. Than could you stop White Knighting? Thanks. Have a nice day.

No, you gave one example of an auction house that failed because it used a real cash economy and because the developers directly manipulated in-game drop rates in order to directly manipulate the auction house. There is no real cash economy in Warframe. The game has no function to exchange platinum and items for actual cash money.

4 minutes ago, Agentawesome said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/5iypgg/an_explanation_as_to_why_de_will_not_implement_an/

 

/thread. 

How is that /thread? For starters, it's a reddit post by a random user not by an actual representative of the Warframe staff.

Also, one of his main arguments for why an auction house would be bad was if Warframe had an in-game auction house then people would know what things were really worth which would prevent dishonest traders from ripping of newbs and thus it would "destroy DE and their profitability." So apparently, if people had a baseline for what items were worth it would destroy DE. That's his argument.

Furthermore, we already have warframe.market. People have a baseline for what most items are worth. People undersell, people oversell, people manipulate the market in ways that it could not be manipulated if Warframe had an in-game market. People ALREADY do all the things that people are claiming would happen if an auction house like warframe.market were simply implemented into the game. In fact, warframe.market is worse because there are no restrictions and nothing stopping people from posting fake buy and sell orders on warframe.market to drive prices both up and down.

[Ninja22678]

1 minute ago, Ninjacalypse said:

Furthermore, we already have warframe.market. People have a baseline for what most items are worth. People undersell, people oversell, people manipulate the market in ways that it could not be manipulated if Warframe had an in-game market. People ALREADY do all the things that people are claiming would happen if an auction house like warframe.market were simply implemented into the game. In fact, warframe.market is worse because there are no restrictions and nothing stopping people from posting fake buy and sell orders on warframe.market to drive prices both up and down.

And not every trader knows about Warframe.Market. It's a third party program. It would be a little different if you implemented it into the game, which by then you could assume DE supported something like this. Then everyone knows about it and a lot more happens. People are doing things on that website that would negativey impact the game if it were happening in the game. But it's not. It's seperate. 

[(XBOX)Cephalon 7]

good luck with this. I have made several post on this topic and even a main topic it self. DE just ignores these. and the other community players are aw my opionion lalala. I dont want a auction house cause then we cant sell items at our price and rip others off cause they dont know what items are worth. Waaa!

 

This will never happen cause of players like that ^^^. good wishing though man. Ill pray for both of us

[Askell91]

5 minutes ago, Ninjacalypse said:

No, you gave one example of an auction house that failed because it used a real cash economy and because the developers directly manipulated in-game drop rates in order to directly manipulate the auction house. There is no real cash economy in Warframe. The game has no function to exchange platinum and items for actual cash money

[Ninjacalypse]

2 minutes ago, Ninja22678 said:

And not every trader knows about Warframe.Market. It's a third party program. It would be a little different if you implemented it into the game, which by then you could assume DE supported something like this. Then everyone knows about it and a lot more happens. People are doing things on that website that would negativey impact the game if it were happening in the game. But it's not. It's seperate. 

And if it were implemented into the game, then DE could restrict it. Instead of being able to post fake buy and sell orders to manipulate prices, if you put up a buy order your platinum and credit tax could be put into escrow, so someone could fulfill that order. Same thing with a sell order. You would have to actually have the item to sell it and you would have to put the item, credit tax into escrow with your sell order. So if you attempted to manipulate the prices, then you would just end up ripping off yourself.

People are acting like there would be no way whatsoever for DE to put rules and restrictions in place.

[Ninjacalypse]

2 minutes ago, Askell91 said:

Are you capable of intelligent discussion or only communicating with gifs? Tell me where I can sell Frost Prime set for cash. Tell me where I can take the platinum I have in-game right now and get cash for it.

[(XBOX)Cephalon 7]

just to throw this in there. neverwinter uses real cash. and it has an auction house :) works out perfectly fine

It actually has one of the most stable and working auction houses out of any game.

[ChuckMaverick]

42 minutes ago, Ninjacalypse said:

54 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Just look at any article about the "coffee crisis" to see the effect of more convenient trading and oversupply on a market.

It took years and the whole "fair trade" movement for the industry to begin to recover from that disaster.

The "coffee crisis" was due to an influx of low quality coffee beans. There are no "low quality" items in Warframe. A Frost Prime will always have the same stats. A Nikana Prime will always have the same stats. A specific mod will always have the same stats.

That's true, which means the influx of new supply in the Warframe economy will be of "equivalent quality" items, making the effect even more severe as there is no quality trade-off to consider.

It's also worth noting that the oversupply of coffee in the key years of 1998 to 2002 was less than 6%, the oversupply in the Warframe economy would be orders of magnitude greater.

[Ninjacalypse]

9 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

That's true, which means the influx of new supply in the Warframe economy will be of "equivalent quality" items, making the effect even more severe as there is no quality trade-off to consider.

It's also worth noting that the oversupply of coffee in the key years of 1998 to 2002 was less than 6%, the oversupply in the Warframe economy would be orders of magnitude greater.

The coffee crisis was caused by an influx of low quality product. There was already a plentiful supply of "equivalent quality" items, as you call it. "Equivalent quality" items didn't cause the "crisis."

Is that seriously your argument for why an in-game trading post would destroy Warframe's economy? Because of a "coffee crisis" caused by lack of regulation in the 1980s?

Edited December 30, 2016 by Ninjacalypse

[Teadude]

Different tabs for trading is needed, not an AH.

An AH could potentially ruin the games economy, and since trading relies on platinum, DE will highly unlikely use an AH system

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, Ninjacalypse said:

The coffee crisis was caused by an influx of low quality product. There was already a plentiful supply of "equivalent quality" items, as you call it. "Equivalent quality" items didn't cause the "crisis."

From the International Coffee Organisation's own report into the crisis (emphasis mine)...

The world coffee economy has evolved over the last few years in a manner which may be qualified as erratic, disorderly and even contradictory. The relative supply scarcity of the mid 1990s, caused largely by climatic conditions, was followed by a short period of moderately high prices that compensated for the losses incurred by the dismantling in 1989 of the International Coffee Agreement’s quota system. However this situation prompted a surge in production that altered substantially the global supply structure and was the cause of the worst coffee crisis ever seen in terms of growers’ incomes.

So no, there wasn't a 'plentiful supply' before the crisis.

 

2 minutes ago, Ninjacalypse said:

Is that seriously your argument for why an in-game trading post would destroy Warframe's economy? Because of a "coffee crisis" in the 1980s?

I'm merely providing a real life example of oversupply causing a market crash, as you did not appear to accept that oversupply would cause such a crash.

Which, in order to tie this back to Warframe, brings me back to my questions that you still haven't answered:

Do you accept that making selling items easier via an auction house would encourage more people to sell items?

Do you accept that supply can and will increase more than demand, as you can farm multiple copies of an item but likely only use one?

Do you accept basic economic theory, and the law of supply and demand?

If you accept all the above, then you have to conclude that prices will fall; if you don't accept them, then which one do you disagree with?

[Ninjacalypse]

5 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

From the International Coffee Organisation's own report into the crisis (emphasis mine)...

The world coffee economy has evolved over the last few years in a manner which may be qualified as erratic, disorderly and even contradictory. The relative supply scarcity of the mid 1990s, caused largely by climatic conditions, was followed by a short period of moderately high prices that compensated for the losses incurred by the dismantling in 1989 of the International Coffee Agreement’s quota system. However this situation prompted a surge in production that altered substantially the global supply structure and was the cause of the worst coffee crisis ever seen in terms of growers’ incomes.

So no, there wasn't a 'plentiful supply' before the crisis.

 

I'm merely providing a real life example of oversupply causing a market crash, as you did not appear to accept that oversupply would cause such a crash.

Which, in order to tie this back to Warframe, brings me back to my questions that you still haven't answered:

Do you accept that making selling items easier via an auction house would encourage more people to sell items?

Do you accept that supply can and will increase more than demand, as you can farm multiple copies of an item but likely only use one?

Do you accept basic economic theory, and the law of supply and demand?

If you accept all the above, then you have to conclude that prices will fall; if you don't accept them, then which one do you disagree with?

Oh wow, well since you googled it then copy & pasted some words, you're obviously an expert on real world economy. I didn't say there was a "plentiful supply" *before* the crisis. But which are you trying to argue now? That the market will crash because of too little supply or too much supply? Because it sounds like you're arguing both.

Real world markets fluctuate constantly, not just based on supply & demand but also based on real world conditions, geopolitics, trade agreements, climate change, you name it.

A virtual game economy is by comparison a rather simple supply & demand market. We ALREADY have a supply & demand economy in Warframe. That's not going to change. Supply is however limited by a number of factors, such as time, rarity, RNG, vaulting status and already imposed daily trading limits.

Here's the culmination of your argument. You're claiming that Warframe's economy would collapse if it was "easier" to sell items. That's the crux of your argument...that the only thing holding together Warframe's fragile economy is how tedious trading is. So...you claim that Warframe's economy would collapse if it wasn't a pain in the &#! to trade.

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, Ninjacalypse said:

I didn't say there was a "plentiful supply" *before* the crisis.

Oh? How else would you interpret this... ?

33 minutes ago, Ninjacalypse said:

There was already a plentiful supply of "equivalent quality" items, as you call it. "Equivalent quality" items didn't cause the "crisis."

But if you did really mean that there was both a plentiful supply of equivalent quality product during the crisis and an influx of new low-quality product, then it just confirms that oversupply caused the crash, as the ICO stated in their report.

2 minutes ago, Ninjacalypse said:

Real world markets fluctuate constantly, not just based on supply & demand but also based on real world conditions, geopolitics, trade agreements, climate change, you name it.

A virtual game economy is by comparison a rather simple supply & demand market. We ALREADY have a supply & demand economy in Warframe. That's not going to change. Supply is however limited by a number of factors, such as time, rarity, RNG, vaulting status and already imposed daily trading limits.

As you say, game economies are much simpler than real world economies, and therefore the effects of individual changes are much easier to predict.

Supply is also limited currently by the lack of a convenient auction house, that is the factor that you are proposing to change, which will lead to increased supply.

15 minutes ago, Ninjacalypse said:

Here's the culmination of your argument. You're claiming that Warframe's economy would collapse if it was "easier" to sell items. That's the crux of your argument...that the only thing holding together Warframe's fragile economy is how tedious trading is. So...you claim that Warframe's economy would collapse if it wasn't a pain in the &#! to trade.

I realise you are trying to make my argument sound absurd, but you are in essence correct.

The vast majority of MMO economies are fundamentally flawed when viewed as true free markets, and it is very easy for their natural balance to set prices at a level that is destructive to the game, requiring their devs to manipulate the market on an ongoing basis.

Warframe has been very fortunate to date, whether by luck or design, in that its economy is at a balance where non-paying players can earn plat at a reasonable rate if they choose to farm and sell items. This is why many agree that Warframe "does free-to-play right", to quote Rebecca.

It won't take much of a change at all in the supply/demand balance to cause a price crash that will make playing 'free' feel very grindy, and that will be very bad news for the game.

 

Oh, and you're still avoiding answering my questions. At this point it's no doubt clear to everyone why that is.

[Ninjacalypse]

2 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Oh, and you're still avoiding answering my questions. At this point it's no doubt clear to everyone why that is.

No, I'm not. You're just avoiding reading my answers. Warframe is obviously a supply & demand economy. Pretty much every game with an economy is a supply & demand economy. I already said that.

Your claim is that well if it's a supply & demand economy and an in-game auction house would make it easier to trade then that's proof that the game economy would fail. That makes no sense. Still no proof.

And again, just to reiterate that's the culmination of your entire argument. You said if it was easier to trade in-game and not as tedious as it is now...the game's entire economy would just crash and fail. You're right when you said it sounds absurd. That's because it is absurd.

 

[TheFinalEpic]

I'm on the side that a unified auction house will crash the economy of the game.

 

I've seen it too many times in games where items gets devalued due to people having the option of selling to a global market. Everybody would list it at the same time and the value of the item would crash dramatically due to there is actually more supply than actually demand in the game (Because once you buy the part, you don't need it anymore, you have no more demand, however that part will always be continued to be put into the economy via player grind, thus always devalues the item more and more)

 

People who want it just wants cheap parts most likely which while good for said people, its bad for the game overall's health. (I'm sure thats everybody take on it as well)

Edited December 30, 2016 by TheFinalEpic

[ChuckMaverick]

2 minutes ago, Ninjacalypse said:

No, I'm not. You're just avoiding reading my answers. Warframe is obviously a supply & demand economy. Pretty much every game with an economy is a supply & demand economy. I already said that.

Your claim is that well if it's a supply & demand economy and an in-game auction house would make it easier to trade then that's proof that the game economy would fail. That makes no sense. Still no proof.

Well hopefully you'll agree that deductive reasoning is sufficient proof, please feel free to point out any flaws in my logic.

First my premises:

1. Making trading easier via an auction house would lead to more people buying and selling items than under the current system;
2. Demand in Warframe is inherently more limited than supply, as most players will only require one of each item, but can collect many of each for sale;
3. Basic economic theory and the law of supply and demand hold true in the Warframe economy;
4. An increase in supply, relative to demand, will cause prices to fall.

Now the conclusion:

From (1) we can see that both supply and demand would increase with the introduction of an auction house, but (2) means that the increase in supply will outstrip the increase in demand. This, when (3) and (4) are held to be true, must inevitably lead to a fall in prices.

So there you are, proof that the introduction of an auction house will cause a fall in prices.

Unless, that is, you want to directly challenge any part of my logic above.