HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[flapvsjack]

After reading multiple posts, I have noticed many believe it is the clan duty to make adjustments to gain Hema. Which I believe is untrue. Cherry picking clans activity, percentage to farm + time & clans that need to downgrade to work it out. None of those issues will resolve the problem at hand, nor help if DE releases another item requiring a lot of Mutagen Sample in the near future. My solution to this problem is represented below. I know its not the best video but I cover what is needed. Please, watch & spread the word.
 

 

[Gamma745]

8 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

You are both giving Hema the utmost importance as something that forces you to play a certain way and taking the importance away from it by making goofing off a bigger deal for casual players. 

No, we're not giving it the utmost importance. That's why we're making arguments for casual players, who might not even want to stay that long in the Derelict. Did you get that impression because we're so adamant about this issue? It's because the cost contradict everything DE has said or done, before and after it. We've kept mentioning a certain way to play it because it's what you people kept insisting on us doing, when the reality is not everyone want to do that.

 

4 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

As you detailed 10 man hours sounds awful, but nobody is saying to get it right away, and that's where I keep going. 

Yes, nobody is saying to get it right away. But is it reasonable to stretch that over 2 years unless we go hours of meta-farming?

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Giot a hema riven so i proc 100% of the time. Fun! Quit whining and go buy in the market! Or...play harder to research it! 

[Gamma745]

1 hour ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Giot a hema riven so i proc 100% of the time. Fun! Quit whining and go buy in the market! Or...play harder to research it! 

Thank you for your wonderful contribution to this discussion. Clearly you have solve the riddle of ages and nobody ever thought of it.

[Volinus7]

Visualization.....

Is the skinner box that necessary for wf which has a very large community? It doesn't mean skinner box is bad for a game but using negative reinforcement specifically to induce "pay to skip" is too shabby. 

Seriously the more sideway expansions with microtransaction on every corner added, the more wf becomes an incremental game. Action and rpg elements are just window dressing it seems. *sunk cost fallacy intensifies*

 

The effort ratio of gameplay to monetizing new items is like 1:4 ...

 

 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Volinus7

[Ditto132]

17 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

You could've just said you consider it p2w and saved us both the textwall.

I did also factor in other sources and from people I spoke to since P2W is a thing, even fellow developers.

17 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Yeah, the end of the world indeed.

Nah, just end of friendly Warframe community and playerbase.

17 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

"Entice" gotta love that word, Rivens made 4 of my friends use their pantheras again. That doesn't serve for statistics but at least for what I see I see a minor success

It is called trend. Just like how there are suddenly more Limbo and Octavia being used in missions when Limbo was reworked and Octavia released.
People started to experiment, play and use Panthera due to its recent buffs/changes. It is an interesting and better weapon than before.
That is when players start wanting to get those Riven mods.
Just like these recent videos:

Spoiler

 

Riven mods act as stat multiplier, if the base stats are bad or non-existent(e.g. 0% crit chance), it would not make that weapon as good compared to similar weapon with better base stats. Performance of Riven mods are mostly based on the weapon stats.
My Flux Rifle Riven mod doesn't make it any better and allow me to use it more.

17 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Yes, spelling in english changes sorry about that. As for the whole "one-man army" thing, isn't the whole concept supossed to mean you do as much as X number of soldiers? If that's the case why are you struggling with something that can be easily farmed by 10 people? Or medium difficulty for 5 people? And please choose a stand, are you the one-man army that can do the research as easy as 10 clanmates or the victim solo clan that can't do it by himself but doesn't want to play with others?

Like I said, I usually play/grind/farm more than normal/casual players. I did it so that I can make up and carry some of my friends.
I also grind/farm some resources when there are no new contents/updates from DE, to prepare for times when I got no time when update arrived.
Take Sibear for example, when it was released, I got enough Cryotic to craft more than 3 of them. There are players that said it required too much.
I didn't say anything like "It is doable, just farm it, you just want it immediately" or statements that dismissed their concern.
Just because I farmed like crazy beforehand and that I have no issues with the ridiculous cost, doesn't mean that it is not an issue.
I said numerous times before that research cost should not be based on optimal methods of resource acquisition.
And even when non-solo clans are finding the research cost ridiculous, it is not just the issue of being a solo clan.

Especially when compared to Javlok that took me 1,000 Detonite Ampules to research solo.
Detonite Ampule being a rare item, drop in quantities of 1 without booster.
How many missions I have to play normally to obtain that amount?

Now consider that players don't normally play in Derelicts which require crafting of the keys, Eris is the only location left to obtain Mutagen Samples casually.
Factor in these:

• Mutagen Sample is rare item in Eris, similar to Detonite Ampule
• Detonite Ampule is availiable in Mercury, Saturn, Uranus, Earth, Sedna, Ceres
• Hema research cost require 5,000 Mutagen Samples compared to Javlok research cost of 1,000 Detonite Ampules, 5x more
• Akkad and Xini being a common playing location, yet yield very little Mutagen Samples as compared to Detonite Ampules
• Players who frequently played Akkad or Xini, still struggling with Mutagen Samples
• Different ratio in the increase of research cost (e.g. increase in neurodes compared to increase in Mutagen Samples)

Don't you find the amount of Mutagen Samples required absurd?

[Justice_Ember]

10 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

We've kept mentioning a certain way to play it because it's what you people kept insisting on us doing, when the reality is not everyone want to do that.

Exactly, not everyone wants to do it so why should they be rewarded? If hardcore gameplay get's you a research in 2 to 3 weeks why shouldn't the casual base get it in 2 to 3 months?

10 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Yes, nobody is saying to get it right away. But is it reasonable to stretch that over 2 years unless we go hours of meta-farming?

I'm going to take that as an hyperbole since under the very analysis on this thread a solo player can take up to 2 months casually farming and a moon clan up to 3 months with casual contributions from 40% of their maximun capacity membership.

4 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

Take Sibear for example, when it was released, I got enough Cryotic to craft more than 3 of them. There are players that said it required too much.
I didn't say anything like "It is doable, just farm it, you just want it immediately" or statements that dismissed their concern.
Just because I farmed like crazy beforehand and that I have no issues with the ridiculous cost, doesn't mean that it is not an issue.
I said numerous times before that research cost should not be based on optimal methods of resource acquisition.
And even when non-solo clans are finding the research cost ridiculous, it is not just the issue of being a solo clan.

I was on the other spectrum of that, I had no cryotic and had to farm for it, I did it over the course of 2 months by running excavation solo whenever I had nothing to do. Same could be done for Hema, specially for casual clans that havent even finished all researches or colors.

4 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

Now consider that players don't normally play in Derelicts which require crafting of the keys, Eris is the only location left to obtain Mutagen Samples casually.
Factor in these:

• Mutagen Sample is rare item in Eris, similar to Detonite Ampule
• Detonite Ampule is availiable in Mercury, Saturn, Uranus, Earth, Sedna, Ceres
• Hema research cost require 5,000 Mutagen Samples compared to Javlok research cost of 1,000 Detonite Ampules, 5x more
• Akkad and Xini being a common playing location, yet yield very little Mutagen Samples as compared to Detonite Ampules
• Players who frequently played Akkad or Xini, still struggling with Mutagen Samples
• Different ratio in the increase of research cost (e.g. increase in neurodes compared to increase in Mutagen Samples)

The very thought of getting it casually defeats the purpose of researching it, doesn't it? 

• Yes Mutagen could drop in more planets, more than 1 at least, not counting derelict
• Which is a shame, Javlok could've costed 5000 da and it would have been better for discussion
• No research cost should factor in Akkad and Xini
• No research cost should consider what players get normally
• I would like an explanation for the cost tho, at least a reason why something is required more than something else

4 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

Don't you find the amount of Mutagen Samples required absurd?

No, not really. If there was a deadline for a research to start then yes, it would be crazy absurd, but that's not the case.

[Volinus7]

One side of the argument: "There must be a limit to the highest minimum time needed to grind a single item!! It must be somewhere! We're sure of it!! But we can't specify it!!!"

Another side of the argument: "There's no limit to the time needed for grinding a single item!! One item can take years or decades to grind!! Think about the limitless possibilities!!!" 

 

/me grab popcorn... 

Edited April 28, 2017 by Volinus7

[Gamma745]

1 hour ago, zzzNitro said:

I'm going to take that as an hyperbole since under the very analysis on this thread a solo player can take up to 2 months casually farming and a moon clan up to 3 months with casual contributions from 40% of their maximun capacity membership.

Care to show us the calculations for this? The 2 months for casual player?

[Almagnus1]

23 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

Care to show us the calculations for this? The 2 months for casual player?

Depends how often they wander into the Derelict.

For me and my clan it's going to be closer to half a year because we simply don't have the luxury of a lot of us with a ton of free time, so it's likely going to be one, maybe two, people working on this time sink while the rest of us focus on getting primed items.

[Liminal]

Strawmans and this:

On 4/27/2017 at 0:26 PM, zzzNitro said:

"it's too hard for me, make it easier, wah" and yes, I did go there.

Well then, I guess I was wrong wheh I expected a respectful discussion.

Anyway, it's pointless to try and reason with you when your point of view is "it doesn't bother me so there's obviously nothing wrong with it".

[Flirk2]

10 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

One side of the argument: "There must be a limit to the highest minimum time needed to grind a single item!! It must be somewhere! We're sure of it!! But we can't specify it!!!"

Actually, no. From the very start it was:

''All resources to build or research an item should be obtainable in 1 hour of solo farming without boosters, and most of them were like that, 100 times that for Hema is insane'' from one side and

''You just want everything day one. Stop being lazy and go farm!'' from the other side.

Never mind 300+ items you need to build and research in this game to complete the set.

Never mind 3 day long build times on warframes (once you have all the parts, that take 12 hours on top of that) and 3 day long research times on most things.

And forget that average total play time for the game is around 70 hour mark.

People who think that Hema should not take 77 times more farming than Synapse are just lazy, obviously. It's almost like they want to have fun playing the game! And it's like they don't find meditating on Hydroid's tentacles for hours fun! Heretics, the lot of them!

Edited April 28, 2017 by Flirk2

[Volinus7]

47 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

snip

Don't forget 100% clan participation and the purging of "dead weight" lol.

This suddenly makes "clans with inactive players and solo clans are ok, the requirements are lowered" from devstream89 sound hypocritical even it's on the different matter.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Volinus7

[(PSN)Cynicaid]

That feeling when I look at my profile and see that the only primary I have left to level is the Hema. Over 40k samples left to farm!

 

I still think it is hilarious that their idea of "Reducing the grind" actually meant "Reducing the number of players who can stand the grind."

[Gamma745]

9 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Depends how often they wander into the Derelict.

For me and my clan it's going to be closer to half a year because we simply don't have the luxury of a lot of us with a ton of free time, so it's likely going to be one, maybe two, people working on this time sink while the rest of us focus on getting primed items.

Well, I made a small calculation for the casual players one or two pages ago:

On 4/27/2017 at 10:14 AM, Gamma745 said:

So, the calculation could go like this: Each Derelict run net around 20 Samples for a 40-min run, but not everyone can do that. So, 20-min run, which net 10 samples.

50% casual player base, which means each player need 1000 Samples

Derelicts are only gone to maybe once a month, so to get the player required quota, that could mean 100 months.

If at once a week: 100 weeks = 25 months.

You can adjust the number of players and time with your current condition, and see where you will end up. Sorry if it put a damper on your spirit, but that is the condition right now.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Ghost clan=5k muta samples=hema 

 

Big clan bad

Small clan gooooood if ur impatient.

 

Otherwise, theres no time limit...so no worries.

 

Play game=have fun

Dont play game=don't have fun

 

Play game=get hema

Don't play game=no hema

 

 

Edited April 29, 2017 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[Chipputer]

On 4/27/2017 at 9:50 PM, Gamma745 said:

we're making arguments for casual players

Casual players are fun, and all, but not everything is going to be easily reachable for a casual player. The sooner you accept this and stop pretending that everything has to be able to be achieved in an afternoon the better.

[Almagnus1]

2 hours ago, Gamma745 said:

Well, I made a small calculation for the casual players one or two pages ago:

You can adjust the number of players and time with your current condition, and see where you will end up. Sorry if it put a damper on your spirit, but that is the condition right now.

Which, for us, basically means "do you want Hema, or all the other gear that keeps getting released?"

[Almagnus1]

3 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Casual players are fun, and all, but not everything is going to be easily reachable for a casual player. The sooner you accept this and stop pretending that everything has to be able to be achieved in an afternoon the better.

Yet reducing the Hema cost down to about 1k samples would **REALLY** go a long way towards throwing the casual players a bone.

I don't want it doable in an afternoon.... I just want to see it doable in a more realistic timeframe for casual players.

[Vance.Stubbs]

You know, what is the best thing about Hema?

This weapon is completely absolete after Paracyst buff. It's not even good.

[Loswaith]

35 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

... but not everything is going to be easily reachable for a casual player. ...

Problem is that Hema just isn't really reachable at all for a casual player unless they spend years playing warframe.  Huge difference between reaching something easily and taking years to get there.

Keep in mind plenty of ghost clans with founders (and other early adopters) couldn't afford hema day one. That is after having played the game for 3 years before that gathering mutagen samples casually.  While now there is arguably less reason to go to derelicts now that prime parts aren't on the drop tables, like they were before.

 

Edited April 29, 2017 by Loswaith

[Gamma745]

1 hour ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Ghost clan=5k muta samples=hema 

 

Big clan bad

Small clan gooooood if ur impatient.

 

Otherwise, theres no time limit...so no worries.

 

Play game=have fun

Dont play game=don't have fun

 

Play game=get hema

Don't play game=no hema

 

 

Derelict is fun, woot woot.

Farming hours on end is playing, yipee.

Hema won't became a requirement, yessire.

 

1 hour ago, Chipputer said:

Casual players are fun, and all, but not everything is going to be easily reachable for a casual player. The sooner you accept this and stop pretending that everything has to be able to be achieved in an afternoon the better.

Yes, not in afternoon, we already know that. But how long do we have to go? 2-3 years?

 

1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

Which, for us, basically means "do you want Hema, or all the other gear that keeps getting released?"

Couldn't say it better myself.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

5 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

Actually, no. From the very start it was:

''All resources to build or research an item should be obtainable in 1 hour of solo farming without boosters, and most of them were like that, 100 times that for Hema is insane'' from one side and

''You just want everything day one. Stop being lazy and go farm!'' from the other side.

Never mind 300+ items you need to build and research in this game to complete the set.

Never mind 3 day long build times on warframes (once you have all the parts, that take 12 hours on top of that) and 3 day long research times on most things.

And forget that average total play time for the game is around 70 hour mark.

People who think that Hema should not take 77 times more farming than Synapse are just lazy, obviously. It's almost like they want to have fun playing the game! And it's like they don't find meditating on Hydroid's tentacles for hours fun! Heretics, the lot of them!

On your place I will be rather shut up then speaking here about grind.

[(XBOX)RPColten]

Wasn't Hema designed to act as a focus point for a long-term goal that clans can work towards slowly? I remember Steve talking about it saying that the purpose was to act as a sort of focus-sink.

[Vance.Stubbs]

12 hours ago, (Xbox One)RPColten said:

Wasn't Hema designed to act as a focus point for a long-term goal that clans can work towards slowly? I remember Steve talking about it saying that the purpose was to act as a sort of focus-sink.

The problem is, Hema isn't really a good candidate for some sort of "focus-sink". It is a mediocre weapon, having worse DPS than post-buffed Paracyst. It's "mechanic" is also absolutely nothing special. 

If only that focus-sink candidate was something really flashy and unique, a Hemlith Charger, maybe? New Infested-themed Landing Craft? Or, perhaps, an upgrade module for infested Orbiter room that will allow you do "infest" Warframes for a limited periods of time, adding new properties to their powers?