HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Retrijeuj]

Wow, you guys really need to chill. You're all talking like it is vital for your account to get the Hema ; may I remind you it's just a weapon, and you have plenty more to try ? If you really want the weapon, but don't want to farm for it, then farm corrupted mods, prime parts, whatever, and sell them. Buy the Hema when you get enough plats. But stop *@##$ing about a ressource you never took the time to grind.

People are freaking out because they have only a few hundreds of mutagen samples after years of gaming. Yes, you only have this amount of mutagens, but when did you farm it ? Probably once or twice, while you were farming ODD/ODS/whatever. Stop saying DE is killing the game, when you're the ones who don't want to put any effort into it. As Fifilona said, just run ODD, ODS, maybe even Eris missions. Farm orokin caches on Eris to get a Shell-shock mod. Farm relics. Farm cells. Level up weapons. What the hell are you doing when you're not farming ? The whole game is about farming and leveling your gear, if you're not doing all that, I don't see what you could be doing.

4 hours ago, Doc-Orange said:

This is absolutly poor!

No company can survive against theit customers. From this moment we - the players - are not partners anymore, we are simple cash cows.

DE, you lost a lot of my respect. I admired you as a "good" company which really cares about players opinion. This has changed now...

Also, just because you guys are yelling louder than others doesn't mean you are a majority. DE will survive without you, because while you're complaining after every update, people are still playing and enjoying new content.

[Zendadaist]

I'm sure it must be literally impossible for them to run a script to at least refund any mutagen sample difference *eyeroll*. What an unbelivably half arsed cop out response from DE.

Well Hema might get researched in the next few years but as of now I'm not going to force my clan to lay down their free time to farm for this. We have better thigns to do with our time (and plat).

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

26 minutes ago, Retrijeuj said:

Wow, you guys really need to chill. You're all talking like it is vital for your account to get the Hema ; may I remind you it's just a weapon, and you have plenty more to try ? If you really want the weapon, but don't want to farm for it, then farm corrupted mods, prime parts, whatever, and sell them. Buy the Hema when you get enough plats. But stop *@##$ing about a ressource you never took the time to grind.

People are freaking out because they have only a few hundreds of mutagen samples after years of gaming. Yes, you only have this amount of mutagens, but when did you farm it ? Probably once or twice, while you were farming ODD/ODS/whatever. Stop saying DE is killing the game, when you're the ones who don't want to put any effort into it. As Fifilona said, just run ODD, ODS, maybe even Eris missions. Farm orokin caches on Eris to get a Shell-shock mod. Farm relics. Farm cells. Level up weapons. What the hell are you doing when you're not farming ? The whole game is about farming and leveling your gear, if you're not doing all that, I don't see what you could be doing.

Also, just because you guys are yelling louder than others doesn't mean you are a majority. DE will survive without you, because while you're complaining after every update, people are still playing and enjoying new content.

 And then they make you farm 15k tellirium for the next weapon or to craft a banshee prime part , what say u then? lol  how do you like your crow? 

Edited January 3, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Tyrian3k]

10 minutes ago, Retrijeuj said:

Wow, you guys really need to chill. You're all talking like it is vital for your account to get the Hema ; may I remind you it's just a weapon, and you have plenty more to try ? If you really want the weapon, but don't want to farm for it, then farm corrupted mods, prime parts, whatever, and sell them. Buy the Hema when you get enough plats. But stop *@##$ing about a ressource you never took the time to grind.

People are freaking out because they have only a few hundreds of mutagen samples after years of gaming. Yes, you only have this amount of mutagens, but when did you farm it ? Probably once or twice, while you were farming ODD/ODS/whatever. Stop saying DE is killing the game, when you're the ones who don't want to put any effort into it. As Fifilona said, just run ODD, ODS, maybe even Eris missions. Farm orokin caches on Eris to get a Shell-shock mod. Farm relics. Farm cells. Level up weapons. What the hell are you doing when you're not farming ? The whole game is about farming and leveling your gear, if you're not doing all that, I don't see what you could be doing.

People are sick of DE introducing new build and research cost based on stockpiles that veterans have. Great that every person, who farmed R5s has gotten tons of Cryotic over the years, but that is in no way a justification to bring in a weapon that requires you to finish 300 extractors.

Hema is just the tip of the iceberg.

Worst thing is that you can't combine farming for Hema with anything at all. If you don't specifically farm for it, you will never get it.

What's next? 500 Nitain to research the next weapon? One billion Nano Spores? How high does the cost need to go until you start complaining?

[Xzorn]

31 minutes ago, Retrijeuj said:

Wow, you guys really need to chill. You're all talking like it is vital for your account to get the Hema ; may I remind you it's just a weapon, and you have plenty more to try ? If you really want the weapon, but don't want to farm for it, then farm corrupted mods, prime parts, whatever, and sell them. Buy the Hema when you get enough plats. But stop *@##$ing about a ressource you never took the time to grind.

 

Being a bad consumer and fixing an obvious problem with money is not what you should do.

You should do without for the greater good.

People who simply can't do without are why companies like EA are still around.

I have a lifetime of plat and I will not buy Hema. My foot is down. I will not send the msg that this is okay by spending 50 hours farming it or spending plat.

Especially after I spent 100k Kuva rolling a single Riven which is now no better than a basic worthless mod.  I didn't complain though because that's how online  games work. Esp F2P games.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Xzorn

[MrSpark_]

DE wont change it, they dont want you to farm it. they want you to spend the money on plat to buy it 

[Reifnir]

18 minutes ago, Retrijeuj said:

 

Wow, you guys really need to chill.

 

I guess you're one of those people, eh?

Hint: Sibear wasn't fine. Nor is Hema. But while Sibear could be more or less "passively" farmed since there are tons of excavation missions, Hema can not. And this is a tendency that quite a large percentage of current Warframe players don't seem to like. 

[Bobtm]

This has already been noted, but the nonsensical precedent this poor design choice sets is incredibly worrying.  Anyone who's defending this genuinely awful cost needs to take a step back and look at where this can and will end up if people deem costs of this magnitude as acceptable.

Going by the trends of what average research costs are for other items that utilize Mutagen Samples, or other rare resources, it could be really horrible.

Hema's cost of research as a baseline is 5000.  Other items that cost this same resource only land themselves in the double digits.  So, for simplicity's sake let's say that the Hema would insead have a base cost of 50.  That is a 100x difference.

So going with that let's use this same trend (resource cost multiplied by 100) on something else to drive home this point.  Most Plastid costs for weapons are around the range of a few hundred to a few thousand.  Since some people think the Hema's cost is acceptable then so is this by proxy;

Ghost clan plastid cost for random weapon ____ = 275,000 Plastids

Another example, Oxium.  Projected "acceptable cost" = 300,000 or more Oxium

Let's throw a number in for Polymer Bundles too.  Anywhere from 200,000 to 1,000,000 Polymer Bundles.

I could go on but it's obscene and honestly messed up.  The Hema's research costs are literally one-hundred times higher than they should justifiably be.  It's not just nonsense saying that either, it's comparisons to what in-game costs exist for every single thing that has ever used it as a resource before.  Is multiplying a cost by 100 just okay?  No, it absolutely is not okay.  It's annoying when it only happens to one weapon.  It's going to be a slap in the face to players if any future item has a prerequisite "Requires Hema Research".  And it's going to become a major issue when some random item shows up and requires ten billion Nano Spores to research.

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

When does DE get back to the office to give us an "official" official response? I find it ludicrous that they essentially avoided any and all communication or fixes over their "break", I've had countless times where I've needed to do something for my job when I was on my day off or vacation. 

[Volinus7]

16 hours ago, ograzzt said:

1. We made a mistake.

2. We didn't fix it fast enough.

3. Solution: do nothing anyway because few clans had stockpiles and big number of active players (c) DE logic, 2016-2017.

0. We planned to make an obvious irreversible mistake to grab some pocket money for christmas shopping.

[WolfTitan]

1 hour ago, Retrijeuj said:

Wow, you guys really need to chill. You're all talking like it is vital for your account to get the Hema ; may I remind you it's just a weapon, and you have plenty more to try ? If you really want the weapon, but don't want to farm for it, then farm corrupted mods, prime parts, whatever, and sell them. Buy the Hema when you get enough plats. But stop *@##$ing about a ressource you never took the time to grind.

 

By setting the base cost to 5000 Mutagen Samples, DE is essentially telling players, "We don't care how much time you spent to get the amount that you currently have. But because you already have this much, we will set the research requirement to 5000 Mutagen Samples."

DE logic, particularly from one of the employees, has been nonexistent in 2016. He/she has become so obsessed with numbers and timing that he/she has lost touch with the player base. Even if he/she didn't mean for it (which I doubt), his/her actions imply that conclusion.

1. Let's make excavation dig sites further apart because the timing of each "wave" is less than 5 minutes.
2. Let's nerf some frames.
3. Let's have events that require players to repeat over and over again to farm new mods (e.g. Acolytes).
4. Let's put a massive grindwall for Nidus by locking its parts in Rotation C of a repetitive mission that doesn't even guarantee the part.
5. Let's lock away new prime parts in entirely new relics that we have to farm.
   • Let's also keep the Prime Vault in place even though DE said the new solar map would make it obsolete.
   • Let's have so many relics that the chance of new players finding a squad wanting to run the same relic with the same refinement level is nonexistent.
6. Let's put RNG in mods too! (Riven mods)
   • Also let's have players trade them for thousands of plat and contribute to huge inequalities of power and wealth.
7. Let's increase all new frame and weapon requirements by a noticeable amount.

Long story short: LET'S EXPONENTIALLY INCREASE THE GRINDWALL IN 2016.

[Loswaith]

Steve's response here is rather obscure given they only recently did this very thing for riven mods, not only with changing the stats but reducing and capping the Kuva cost (IE reducing resource costs), despite plenty of player have spent thousands of kuva on re-rolls before the change, even explicitly stating no refunds.

Why?, because they saw it as a change that was better for the game overall, exactly what reducing the costs on the Hema would do and generally say we want to keep a certain level of "reasonable" costs to the weapons.

There are also plenty of times DE has reduced the cost (in grind or resources) of things to make the game better overall.  So why suddenly is this one time an issue?

Edited January 3, 2017 by Loswaith

[shadrad]

1 hour ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

When does DE get back to the office to give us an "official" official response? I find it ludicrous that they essentially avoided any and all communication or fixes over their "break", I've had countless times where I've needed to do something for my job when I was on my day off or vacation. 

JSYK, this is pretty much mostly an American idea about work vs. time off. It's in the minority, even among only other western countries.

Anyway, not to say that people shouldn't discuss what they don't like about the Hema situation, but I'm chiming in here to say that I'm one of the many veteran players who really aren't upset about this at all. I don't particularly feel the pressing need to have the gun right now (or ever, really), so it's a long-term goal for our clan, if anything. I don't think the weapon's stats are good enough to encourage me to grind hardcore to have it within less than 2 weeks of it being released.

I agree with the sentiment expressed that clan research has generally been too inexpensive. We're used to being able to fund stuff completely on our own, which defeats the purpose of having a clan in the first place, honestly. Clans need to be re-evaluated-- OTOH, I also understand that when they were introduced, it in the climate of 'well it's an MMO, you HAVE to have clans' not really thinking through what they really should be for other than social groupings. So of course they haven't aged as well as the rest of the game gets updated-- that's the nature of piecemeal updates as opposed to expansion packs or sequels, it comes with the territory.

Anyway, again, really only posting to let it be known that despite other notions, there are plenty of us out here who don't have a problem with the Hema costs and are going to keep playing the game with just as much enjoyment as before.

[Top_Kekkonen]

1 hour ago, Volinus7 said:

0. We planned to make an obvious irreversible mistake to grab some pocket money for christmas shopping.

It's not irreversible.

It's simple, they just delete two zeros.

5000 into 50 simple

Edited January 3, 2017 by Top_Kekkonen

[NativeKiller]

16 minutes ago, Top_Kekkonen said:

It's not irreversible.

It's simple, they just delete two zeros.

5000 into 50 simple

Then they'd better get doing it fast since their "holiday" excuse is getting weaker by the second.

 

Also, it would be... "nice" if they could refund/compensate players as well, but that could arguably be less of a priority.

Edited January 3, 2017 by NativeKiller

[SergeiTheBeast]

I'm not going to bash anyone at DE no matter how much I disagree with the research costs of the hema. That being said, this has created a few other problems with the game. The clan environment has become quite toxic. I've heard of people charging plat to join clans now, kicking people who don't play EVERY SINGLE DAY, having to force people out just so they can downsize enough to feel like they can handle the costs of the research.  All of this is a syndrome of the real problem of the hema's research cost. I knew something like this was coming when the Sibear first came out with it's 30K cryotic cost, then Vauban primes 14K oxium cost....If this is the current trend, I may just be hanging up my ninja weapons and calling it quits for good. Let me repeat that. I DID NOT threaten to quit because of this weapon, I said if this TREND continues, I'm out. I play warframe passively in my freetime after I get off work each night. A game should never feel like a job for the player, if it does, then it ceases to be enjoyable.

 

As for Those being harsh on DE, relax and give them some time. It's the holidays, let them enjoy a bit of time off sheesh. They worked all year on this game for us, they earned a few days off with their family and friends.

 

and to Steve's response about the clans who "sucked it up and did it"  I disagree it would be distasteful as you've done things like this in the past PLENTY of times.

 

*Event mods

*Archwing parts

*Riven mods

*Zypher build costs

 

All that being said, I want to take a second to ask to those clans who managed to farm this.

Did you do this without boosters? I'm genuinely curious as to the length of time this would take to farm by normal methods VS using money to buy boosters to shorten the grind.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by SergeiTheBeast

[notlamprey]

1 hour ago, SergeiTheBeast said:

All that being said, I want to take a second to ask to those clans who managed to farm this.

Did you do this without boosters? I'm genuinely curious as to the length of time this would take to farm by normal methods VS using money to buy boosters to shorten the grind.

I was thinking about that today. There are a lot of comments floating around about buying boosters to ease the farming pain, but how much booster-buying are we talking about exactly?

It might be possible - might - for some clans to finish their farming with dedicated groups using only 3-day boosters. This really only applies to Ghost clans, or clans with players who have already depleted their years-long personal stockpiles of mutagen samples and only need to farm a fraction of the total.

To reiterate: this single item has drained a great many players of years-long resource buildup, and even then most folks can't fund it entirely from stash.

More realistically, I'd imagine that quite a few folks are buying 7-day boosters - either for a more relaxed pace of farming, or because they didn't have a large stockpile of mutagen samples to use as a springboard. We're talking about a significant amount of platinum sunk into the farming process, just in hopes of making it tolerable.

I doubt there are very many folks buying the 30-day boosters, but some surely have. At 200 plat, that's almost as much as it costs to buy the weapon, and you still have to farm for it after your purchase.

From there, I start wondering about whether we are actually getting any value from our booster purchases if DE is always painting big targets on our resource stockpiles. As an example, say you bought a booster to farm mutagen samples. You're going to receive boosted amounts of many other resources along the way, especially if you finish your sample grind 'early' or spend time doing other things in game while the booster is active. If DE is just headhunting our resource stockpiles, it starts to look like these boosters are only coming back to bite us in the aft end.

Steve mentioned not wanting to devalue the effort of people who have already endured Hema's bloodsucking, but what about the value of our boosters? If DE are basing item costs on player resource stockpiles, boosters don't actually get us anywhere in the long run. They only set us up for future pain. How's that for devaluing player investment?

Edited January 3, 2017 by notlamprey
naughty word.

[[DE]Momaw]

2 hours ago, notlamprey said:

To reiterate: this single item has drained a great many players of years-long resource buildup, and even then most folks can't fund it entirely from stash.

To reiterate: this single item costs a large amount of resource that we have never had any need to farm before. So people haven't farmed it. Any mutagen samples that people have laying around are incidental to other activities.

[Flirk2]

2 hours ago, Momaw said:

To reiterate: this single item costs a large amount of resource that we have never had any need to farm before. So people haven't farmed it. Any mutagen samples that people have laying around are incidental to other activities.

Yes. Like, getting an Ember Prime blueprint from rotation C of ODD before it went for the vault.

Or Nova Prime chassis (or was it systems) from rotation C of ODS.

Neurodes, Orokin Cells and Nano spores were all farmed from derelict at one point or the other.

Of course no one went for mutagen samples. But don't try and tell me no one played derelict defense or survival with a Nekros.

 

As for people who say clan research was too cheap...

Ghost clan was supposed to be the way for 1 person to gain access to clan tech. And it worked till some point. Because until some point research costs were reasonable.

Then Knux happened. But it still was doable. Eventually.

Hema is the first one that is literally impossible to get this way. Because by the time someone will get 5k mutagen samples by himself (no matter how he will go about it, really), he will hate the game with a passion. But he'll probably quit long before that.

Research costs were reasonable because they required 10% of any clan to contribute about an hour worth of farming resources without boosters.

Now we are told 100 times that (so 100% of the clan capacity will contribute 10 hours of farming, or 10% will get a 100 hour job) is reasonable.

I say it's insane.

[[DE]Momaw]

11 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Research costs were reasonable because they required 10% of any clan to contribute about an hour worth of farming resources without boosters

So in other words, research costs were reasonable when they were nonexistent?

 

[Flirk2]

Just now, Momaw said:

So in other words, research costs were reasonable when they were nonexistent?

 

They were not nonexistent. They were there for people who don't play 4 hours a day. And don't have 2k hours of play time.

They were reasonable for the expected play time of people who have a job, family and life, in general.

You know, the average play time of about 70 hours total, according to this http://steamspy.com/app/230410 for example.

[Top_Kekkonen]

13 minutes ago, Momaw said:

So in other words, research costs were reasonable when they were nonexistent?

 

you have to remember that the research requirement isn't the only thing you need to invest resources into. you also need to build the weapon. and I personally think that it's unreasonable for ghost clans with 2 people in it to farm 2500 samples each.

what DE should have done was to put the heavy resource investment into crafting requirements not research. so differently populated clans don't get left out.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Top_Kekkonen

[Obus]

When everyone got the answer "it is intentional.", I say "remember Mesa?". DE get their Christmas sales and then "oops, it was mistake, we are sorry." Crane with oxygen reveal slightly and everybody happy. So what I expected probably "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea máxima culpa", not "Working as intended."

The forum Hema's megathread has already exceeded 135 pages. And flawed logic behind statement "every clan member must donate only 500 mutagen samples" already more than once disproved with numbers. Let me a bit cosplay CO. Majority of clans, by numerous examples of that topic, are about half of the maximum size. Than half of them stopped actively playing, exhausted by boring grind or disagree with some changes. Sometimes they return, check what's changed and participate in events. I myself did so several times. Part of remaining players - beginners who still collect their arsenal, and do not have large reserves. Even part of veteran players will not donate to research, though they can, but are not obliged. And we come to reality, when only 5-20% of clan size participate in research. Now we are faced with very different numbers: from 2k to 5k+ for each participant.

I started to play since the release in Steam. At that time Flux Rifle and Acrid were META and indicator of the owner status. They could not just buy, they are accessible only to members of the clans. Much later, a new clan toys began to appear immediately in store. Everybody says "not a big deal, it's only for rushers". Now we have this.

2-3 years ago we regularly went to ODE/ODD/ODS with clanmates. It was a good place for fast XP to weapons/warframes, get cells and neurodes, Lephantis Nav Coordinates, while Necros was new, and we got some mutagen samples as side effect. People farmed ODD half-afk with Voban, Ogris/Penta, and any other frames/weapons, from 0 to 30. DE reacted for this. We got vary types of eximus and broken spitting vomit mutalisks. And derelict become barren territory. 1 year ago I LF for ODD (AFAIR, Nova P BP) about an hour, and I had to host few runs by myself. If You want beat infested now, likely You go to DS.

When players find their loot cave in Viver, we all got kludge-designed Nullifiers, with damage in DNA, as a reminder of Vivergate. Nullifiers 2.0 aka Combas and Scrambus are ok, but their prototype DE began trying fix in some way only now.

Some players have spent hundreds (!) of hours in derelict, with boosters, and stockpiled tons of mutagen samples. If clan not too big and have some of that players, they can skip grind and start immediately. But it's minority. After that mockery "we have already done, git gud, scrubs" just increase toxity. And I already some times seen mention of selling access to the dojo for platinum, it not healthy at all.

What I seen, with perfect META farm team and both boosters active, you can obtain ~500 (+/-) mutagen samples per hour. That mean, you need spend from 6h to 10h+ in ODS in best scenario for 3k-5k+ target: META team with boosters. Or 20h-50h with same team without boosters. Or 35h-100h+ Necros solo ODS. I don't get it: what was wrong with Viver and Draco? And for those, who says "no rush, just play". Most in that topic pointed numbers about 1-2 samples per hour for whole time played. How long does it take to accumulate  another 2k? Doublethink - wonderful skill.

"You can throw away the dead weight, mobilize everyone to participate, shrink size". Good advice. So, you take a break for a while, and after Holidays you find yourself homeless. Merry Christmas! And ultimatum "donate 500 mutagen samples until the end of the week or you will be kicked out" - very good for team spirit. How many people like it when they are treated as cannon fodder?

In Russian national fairy tales have a common moment: a hero meets stone at the crossroad. On the stone text, it's a little different from the tale to tale: "you will go left - the horse will lose, right you will go - you lose your head, and you will go straight - lose both your head and horse." Now many are looking at such a stone, on which is not too much choice. Farm Derelict like a damned hour by hour, spend money to direct bay in market (that does not help the clan) or GTFO.

"Warframe always was about grind, you are miserable whiners." Yes, right. But there is thin line between fun grind and boring grind. 50h in ODS not fun for me (IMHO). "It's opional, not necessary get this weapon". Opional get this weapon, opional get that warframe. At what point "opional play this game"? "Do not like it - go away, without you it would be better."  Ok, online drop for, say, 50%. Who remain, will have to pay 100% more. New blood helps! Let them sell starter packs, then let them lose hope to get gear ingame and they are forced buy it with plat. Then add magic boxes with little chance to get something decent, but most likely crap. Keys for plat, ofc. Then temporary buffs for PVP, oh, and rent OP weapons. Hey, why are you running away? Oops...

Before that game get rivens. Whales got their luxury god-tier mods for good amount of money. Traders got a new resource for trade. And they now have to buy new slots, if they want to stay in business. Gambling addicts received sortie-kuva slot mashine. Everyone can get a lottery ticket and pray for the jackpot. Casino always wins. Almost forgot, Disposition already revised. Twice.

Did we already cross point of no return or hope still here?

[k05h]

12 hours ago, Retrijeuj said:

You're all talking like it is vital for your account to get the Hema ; may I remind you it's just a weapon, and you have plenty more to try ?

Buying a weapon is not the same as research for the complete clan.

And research means there will be another weapon the needs Hema to be researched. 

[Praxxor]

On 1/2/2017 at 1:51 PM, xRufus7x said:

Bend over and take what exactly, the loss of a few hundred mastery points? Just don't farm it if you don't want to God knows Im not. DE isn't holding a gun to your head. The only thing DE is laughing at is your utter lack of patience and self control.

You can only use that argument if DE confirms that Hema will NEVER be a requirement for another Lab item. Until then we have all the right to complain. And even so, increasing the amount of Samples needed by over 1000% (someone did the maths, go on and question it if you have the time) with only ONE item doesn't really seem reasonable to me at all.