HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Rhekemi]

 

1 hour ago, Ciaus said:

I'm not 100% sure but I think I started this in general discussion? (It's a lot broader than just feedback). Can anyone confirm if it has been moved?
EDIT: My reasoning for putting it in general is that I feel it is a community issue, not just a "this needs fixing" thing. Although I understand that is possibly insufficient and it was poorly placed.

I don't remember. Sorry.

54 minutes ago, Momaw said:

We are a 4-member ghost clan, and we went out and farmed the samples anyway.

So, this is something I have a problem with. Warframe players are very very used to "pre grind". They put in time playing, they get all this material and resources laying around, and then when something new comes out they expect to have enough to just get it instantly. What is so bad about having to earn things AFTER they arrive instead of BEFORE? Especially here where is no time limit. Even if the next infested clan tech needs the Hema (which I doubt), how many months away is that?  If people put half as much effort into just getting the mutagen samples as they do into complaining about the mutagen samples, they'll have the gun researched in plenty of time before anything that requires it arrives (which, again, I doubt).

Which isn't to say that I think this situation is perfect. The core problem is that DE made a very reasonable assumption about how much the gun should cost based on how much of its resource people had available, but they didn't consider how that would scale to clans. Clans that are often full of "dead wood", old players that aren't actually contributing anything, or clans that are simply not full for their tier size.  500 mutagen samples per head for an active, full clan is very reasonable. But if your clan is only half full then suddenly the cost is 1000 per head, and if only half your people are active players, well.

The Hema's raises questions about the very concept of clan research and how much participation and activity should be ASSUMED to be taking place.

Not counting those who haven't tried, many have tried and failed. I can't speak to why they did, or what you did differently, though.

That said, the points you raise are very good ones.

43 minutes ago, bubbabenali said:

Conveniently he forgot to include the part where Steve mentioned how he thinks about some ways to get samples by other means than powerfarming the derilict...

I'd be interested in hearing all of Steve's thoughts on the Hema costs to put the snippet in context. Would you happen to know the timestamp? (And was it uploaded to YouTube?)

Or could you paraphrase his remarks?

Full context is always important, and I realize now that many of us don't have it/are going off of just that clip.

[UvBenServed]

32 minutes ago, bubbabenali said:

Why compensate, or change the cost?

Not trying to say they should or shouldn't. Just trying to get a rough idea of what other people who have farmed for it want.

32 minutes ago, bubbabenali said:

How about a daily side quest by (I forgot the name of the infested dude behind the door)

An infested excavation, where you get 10 samples for each 100 cryotic you dig up.

I'm all for mutagen samples showing up in more missions. They could also replace some of the less interesting rotation rewards from dark sector missions and/or infested salvage with mutagen sample bundles.

21 minutes ago, Momaw said:

At this point, reducing the cost significantly on the Hema would be a slap in the face to everybody that just buckled down and Got It Done.  Having researched the Hema is kind of a badge of honor  so if they did reduce the cost significantly then there needs to be something you can show off. I don't want the materials back because there's nothing worthwhile to use them on, and I don't want a clan trophy because nobody will ever see it or care about it. Maybe a retextured version of an Infested cosmetic?

Yeah, but I feel like you're always going to run into that problem whenever they make something easier to farm for. I remember plenty of people being mad that they weren't given some sort of kuva refund when DE finally decided to put a cap on the cost. Unfortunately, at this point it doesn't seem like there's anything DE can do about this without angering people. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

That being said, I was also thinking some sort of cosmetic item would be neat, if they ended up going that route. Like a mutagen sample ship decoration, sigil, or emblem. Maybe even a syandana made entirely out of mutagen samples. It'd be disgusting, but it'd also be unique.

[theraot]

So, DE, the clans that got it derserve it, and you don't want to run any reparation script for this?

Ok, this means you can't increase the drop rate of the mutagen mass, ever... because if you do, that would be a diservice to those clans that have earned Hema.

They can't add any new farming ability because that would be a diservice to those clans that have earned Hema.

They can't make anything that makes research cheaper because that would be a diservice to those clans that have earned Hema.

The farming have been lock forever. This game is dead now.

[NekroArts]

I'm not sure which hate is worse to go through: letting this be and have a long hate or reduce the cost and have a short, extreme hate.

[notlamprey]

21 minutes ago, Tyrian3k said:

Oh, sure, and I want a Flux Rifle badge of honor because they broke it with Damage 2.0 and made the effort I put into it worthless.

And again, I got 235 samples from 60 waves ODD with a chance booster, Pilfering Hydroid and Nekros, so without a booster in my 2-man ghost clan that only about 1200 waves od mindless ODD farming.

Yeah, where's my Flux Rifle badge?

Steve's logic, as we're currently hearing it, would contradict so much of DE's previous decision-making.

As players, we have always lived with the knowledge that our "investments" may be affected by DE's choices.

Event Rewards. Banshee farming. Arch-weapons now being offered by Syndicates. The list goes on.

DE have, in the past, consistently made tweaks that increase the 'ease' of things which previously required more work. Why use this "we don't want to devalue hard work" argument now, when precedent suggests you don't believe in it?

[theraot]

Boost Hema status chance from 25% to 35%, and how about a x2.5 crit multiplier? - if the price of the weapon will not drop, make the weapon stronger

[-Ryuurei-]

Meanwhile in a PvP clan (lunaro to be exact) full of alts and PvP exclusive players, 51/100 people with maybe 8 properly active PvErs (probably less) we have it harder than a 1-man ghost clan, needing to donate over 5k each if we want this done. It probably won't happen for the next 6+ months... Patience is taking maybe a month tops to get access to a newly released weapon, not 6+

So please tell me how our clan is supposed to do this in a reasonable timeframe, without forcing people to go grind when they don't even want the weapon, or kicking 80% of the clan so we can downsize to ghost or any other band-aid not-actually-solutions.

By Steve's stated logic: oh, synoid simulor is stupidly OP, but loads of people invested into getting it and putting forma on it, so we can't change it anymore, cause that'd devalue their efforts. Remember old synoid gammacor? Ash bladestorm? (glad it got nerfed though) Shield polarise? Old miasma? Etc. Etc.

[(XBOX)DeluxeKnight831]

i run a solo Ghost clan on console. I currently have seven hundred mutagen samples and about 30 neurodes . i dont even know what i'm going to do . lol

gg DE

Edited January 2, 2017 by (XB1)DeluxeKnight831

[k05h]

And for the next dev stream I would like the metrics on the following things:

1. How many clans have actually researched Hema in percent?
2. How many active player do we have per clan in percent?
   active means has been online in the past 30 days
   percent in relation to maximum clan size
3. How many mutange mass do we have per player in median and mean?

And while we are at it. I would love to see them farm mutagen samples without booster until everybody has 500. 

 

This research is insane and this is a precedent. The next thing we see is 5000 neural sensors and 150'000 cryotic for a weapon as a long term goal :(

[LSG501]

Realistically the problem isn't the amount of required samples that are needed for the weapon, it's the expectation from DE that all clans are FULL of active players AND the fact that mutagen samples have one of lowest drop rates of all the resources in the game.  

If mutagen samples (actually mutagen mass seems to have the same issue....) had the same drop rate as say nano spores or one of the other samples such as fieldron we wouldn't be complaining as much but those two issues mentioned above have made this weapon a catalyst for this situation and arguably shows, based on previous comments about how easy it is to get samples etc, that DE doesn't spend enough time actually playing their own game to see just how much of a screw up they've made with this decision.  

 

I do know one thing though, hema made my decision to stop spending on plat easier.... oh and my clan is currently talking about kicking players to get the cost down... yeah that's really a good thing for 'community spirit'....

Edited January 2, 2017 by LSG501
missed out words for some reason

[k05h]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)DeluxeKnight831 said:

i run a solo Ghost clan on console. I currently have seven hundred mutagen samples and about 30 neurodes . i dont even know what i'm going to do . lol

gg DE

When you farm mutagen samples in ODD you will get a decent amount auf neurodes ... small consolation.

I do know one thing though, hema made my decision to stop spending on plat easier.

I had the same idea. I have not used my 50% reward ...just feels wrong at the moment. 

Edited January 2, 2017 by k05h

[Reifnir]

Oh, so reducing the Hema cost now is bad because DE dropped this atrocious research on us and went to party during Christmas vacation?

It invalidates the effort some clans put into grinding it?

Don't make me laugh.

They never considered that removing Vay Hek access requirements (remember the tedious Beacon farm?) "invalidates" player effort. Or that putting Archwing weapon parts in Syndicate shops was akin to throwing all the effort people committed to farming the darn things on rotation C's through the window. Or that all people who went through painful Zephyr farm way back then can be laughed at because nowadays you can farm enough Oxium for Zephyr in one short run? Or that "exclusive" Wraith/Vandal weapons became nothing more than pre-painted mastery fodder now? 

 

Come on DE, this isn't even funny.

You made a mistake that caused an uproar.

You left it there without fixing long enough to let it fester.

You don't get to say "this was all good and intentional, and we won't fix it because some people overcame this ridiculous grind we gave you".

Just NO.

Fix this mess, cut the mutagen sample cost tenfold, or make Mutagen Samples drop 50x more per pickup, but DON'T leave this mess thinking it's all right. It's not, it's a disgusting piece of grind that belongs in a Chinese/Korean f2p mobile app, not in Warframe. 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Reifnir

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

2 hours ago, theraot said:

Boost Hema status chance from 25% to 35%, and how about a x2.5 crit multiplier? - if the price of the weapon will not drop, make the weapon stronger

this ^^ and i would  double it's base dmg from 45 to 90 ( or at least from 45 to 65 ) given how much it costs to research it...

cost/performance with the stats hema has now isn't really making me jump in excitement

[ShiraHagane]

Just FYI, ODS is the best mutagen sample farm for anyone still saying it's ODD

[ShiraHagane]

On another note, even cutting the cost in half would be enough, just do something

[Reifnir]

At this point I literally don't care how "good" Hema is. This is probably the one weapon that (even if I acquire it at some point) I will never, ever actively use on principle. Level it, sell it and forget the abomination even exists. 

And let's not forget the fact that it's a friggin Clantech research, that is bound to serve as a requirement for more research one day. And the research cost is so disgustingly high that it simply HAS to be remedied in some way. No buts, no "it's fine", no sucking up. It's THAT bad. It's 135-pages long rant in just one topic bad.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

How you can help yourself getting Hema:

 - Go Derelict, play Nekros

How DE could help us getting Hema:

 - Add proper tools for clan management so active players are easier to find and inactive players easier to get rid of

 - If clan downgrading isn't a thing already, add it

 - Public matchmaking to Derelict or/and buff drop rates on Eris. Not only do you need to farm the samples but you also need Void Traces for the keys

 

That's my 2 cents on this. Hema is good, it's worth the effort. The problem isn't in the research cost itself, it's in the things surrounding it.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Wyrmius_Prime

[Reifnir]

3 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Hema is good, it's worth the effort.

Nope.

It's a mediocre, clunky weapon that is, for all intents and purposes just a piece of infested mastery fodder with a gimmicky mechanic to it. 

It doesn't offer Tigris Prime levels of damage, it doesn't have any amazing features that justify the research cost of 10x more than everything else in the Bio Lab combined. It's just a mistake that has to be fixed to move on. In no way, shape or form it's something that is healthy for the game. Leaving it as is will just create a precedent for future stuff like "hey, let's add a weapon that costs 500 Neural Sensors and 1,000 Argon Crystals to build". 

[FollowTheFaceless]

Let us wait for similar Tellurium and Nitain costs.

-"Our losers users will swallow it too."

                                                         DE

Edited January 2, 2017 by FollowTheFaceless

[Retrijeuj]

5 hours ago, bubbabenali said:

Conveniently he forgot to include the part where Steve mentioned how he thinks about some ways to get samples by other means than powerfarming the derilict...

My thoughts exactly. The cost right now is ridiculous, I won't argue with that, but the main problem is that you can only farm mutagen samples on Eris and OD. So unlike fieldron samples and detonite ampules, I (and likely most people) had only a few hundreds of them (300, something like that) and I don't feel like grinding infested missions just to get that one ressource.

What they need to do is adding a new alert type, like they did for the Oxium, that would give us a few mutagen samples. Or just add them as a bonus in the new game mode, so that people wouldn't go there only to farm Nidus.

As for reducing the Hema's cost, I'm against it, for the sake of everyone who went ahead and farmed it, or just bought it. Or at least, wait a few months before doing so. I know I would hate it if I farmed something for days, just to see it beome easier to get because of people who didn't have the patience to farm it, and kept complaining about it. So yeah, keep that cost the way it is, but make mutagen samples farming less boring.

Also, people should stop thinking they can get everything as it comes out. The Sibear has a 30k cryotics cost, but it rewards players who go for excavation missions a lot. There are frames and ship parts that cost thousands of oxium and plastids, and I don't have a problem with that either. You have to deserve what you want to get.

[TaintedReality]

2 hours ago, k05h said:

 

This research is insane and this is a precedent. The next thing we see is 5000 neural sensors and 150'000 cryotic for a weapon as a long term goal :(

This is what I am concerned about, that it will become a trend, which is why we need to speak out at the start. 

The cost of things have been rising steadily with an exceptional amount of new things having high -but not completely unreasonable - resource costs such as Sibear with its 30k cryotic and then remember when Vauban Prime came out and they wanted to make him cost 14k oxium but had to reduce it to 7k following an outcry? 

They have constantly stated that they want to reduce the grind but only give us the appearance of doing so while creatively implementing other ways to grind (say hello to nitain!) and steadily increasing individual resource costs. 

Only thing now is that the Hema has inspired the wrath of the community simply because it is more outrageous than the others.

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by TaintedReality

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 hours ago, notlamprey said:

Yeah, where's my Flux Rifle badge?

Steve's logic, as we're currently hearing it, would contradict so much of DE's previous decision-making.

As players, we have always lived with the knowledge that our "investments" may be affected by DE's choices.

Event Rewards. Banshee farming. Arch-weapons now being offered by Syndicates. The list goes on.

DE have, in the past, consistently made tweaks that increase the 'ease' of things which previously required more work. Why use this "we don't want to devalue hard work" argument now, when precedent suggests you don't believe in it?

Well said, bravo sir 

[Wurster]

I had to farm 5000 Mutagen Samples for our clan mostly alone (one time a clan mate helped a little, but nobody plays that regularly as I am). It took a hell of a lot of time to get all this samples, but I'm glad i made it.

But I just have to say: I personally wouldn't mind to lower the research requirements even though i already have farmed all the ressources. For greater clans it's just not doable in a reasonable amount of time... and that's simply unfair too.

And just if DE still doesn't want to make a change, it is fine, but pls DE, don't put up such a weapon ressource requirement again. Sibear and Knux were hard enough, but still reasonable high... The Hema is simply insane...

 

 

[ArcaneSnowdrop]

5 hours ago, Momaw said:

So, this is something I have a problem with. Warframe players are very very used to "pre grind". They put in time playing, they get all this material and resources laying around, and then when something new comes out they expect to have enough to just get it instantly. What is so bad about having to earn things AFTER they arrive instead of BEFORE? Especially here where is no time limit. Even if the next infested clan tech needs the Hema (which I doubt), how many months away is that?  If people put half as much effort into just getting the mutagen samples as they do into complaining about the mutagen samples, they'll have the gun researched in plenty of time before anything that requires it arrives (which, again, I doubt).

I can't speak for other clans, but in my clan's case, not having even a semi-reasonable stockpile means that the grind is all the more painful. We don't really play that much together, for various reasons, and we really don't play much on Eris or the Orokin Derelict, so not even having enough to make up half the needed cost makes it rather painful. It also means that we are going to be /completely/ drained of samples for the forseeable future, meaning that I'm not going to be crafting masses for things like the Torid or the Djinn since I don't play invasions at all often--they're not that fun to me. So it really just piles frustration on top of frustration, and while we'll keep playing, we also want DE to know why this is a problem.

[[DE]Momaw]

1 hour ago, Reifnir said:

You made a mistake that caused an uproar.

You left it there without fixing long enough to let it fester.

10 days, over Christmas and new years holidays, while nobody from the studio was working, is "long enough to let it fester"?