HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[-Mandachordian-Tenno-]

1 hour ago, k05h said:

14 drops per second or 84 drops per minute

14 drops per second and 84 drops per minute sounds waaay off

14 drops x 60 seconds = 840 drops per minute.

[Vermitore]

4 minutes ago, GKDK said:

That's the way the cookie crumbles. My money will also be raining, but too bad raining on other games.

Presumably games developed by non-profit organisations which are distributed on a completely free and philanthropistic basis. Is my assumption correct?

[Vermitore]

1 hour ago, k05h said:

I live in a country where it rains often. From my experience on rain I can say with 100% certainty that 1 drop per minute is not considered rain. I went to check the science behind it.

The smallest form of rain, drizzle, is considered 14 drops per second or 84 drops per minute. Therefore from a scientific point of view the sentence "It is raining mutagen in the derelict" is wrong.

If you are interested in the form of rains:
http://www.kgbanswers.com/how-many-raindrops-fall-in-one-second/4191107

If you are intested in the drop chance of mutagen in derelict missions

 

For your reading pleasure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_and_figurative_language

[Volinus7]

Nothing is a mistake here.

DEtaylor said the cost was intended.

Putting it on long holiday to maximize casualties and made it irreversible was also planned, same as riven being tradeable on the first day.

"Intended irreversible mistake" works every time. 

They cut the costs many times and hard nerfed many times so "don't want to step on someone's hard works" is meaningless. 

 

Reasons why? 

-Crunch time in revenue boost from top brass or their parent company. Well someone might call it greed and hypocrisy.

-Early grinders and whales used their financial influences to veto. 

Either way, everyone bites za dustooo equally (except DE).

Edited January 21, 2017 by Volinus7

[Artekkor]

Make it 5 per minute and we're golden.

5000/5 = 1000 min or ~16 hours.

Divide by amount of players in the clan playing and intentionally farming.

Just 2 players can finish the research just in 8 hours.

3 in 4

4 in 2

You got the idea.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Artek94

[Kaotyke]

40 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

It doesn't sound like you have many friends. Actual friends, not the perversion of the term that Facebook et al have created. Actual friends don't kick each other out of the group simply because some beancounter set an exorbitant price for a mastery trash item.

If they are actually friends cant you just invite them back if they return?

If they get all offended because you kicked them because of a lot of innactivity in a game... well, I have bad news for you.

[GKDK]

2 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

Presumably games developed by non-profit organisations which are distributed on a completely free and philanthropistic basis. Is my assumption correct?

Yea if any do exist I'll support them out of gratitude of satisfying my needs and providing me meaningful progress and enjoyment. Unlike this game as of late. As well as not a game that hides behind silly reasons which forces people to pay up if they want it. This trend will not stop and I won't support it for this game. There's other ways they can make people pay. There's better ways to make people play and enjoy the game. 

PS I rained alot money on this game over the years. Out of gratitude and never forced. 

[Vermitore]

8 minutes ago, GKDK said:

Yea if any do exist I'll support them out of gratitude of satisfying my needs and providing me meaningful progress and enjoyment. Unlike this game as of late. As well as not a game that hides behind silly reasons which forces people to pay up if they want it. This trend will not stop and I won't support it for this game. There's other ways they can make people pay. There's better ways to make people play and enjoy the game. 

PS I rained alot money on this game over the years. Out of gratitude and never forced. 

Yeah, you might have, but if our present understanding of economics and consumer behaviour is anything to go by, you need to nudge consumers along every now and then if you don't want to see revenues dry up, your game fail commercially and your company be wound up.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Vermitore

[Siekier]

I don't give a S#&$. Not anymore.

 

Big part of Warframe's success was the transparency of the devs and the fact that grind was manageable. This coupled with fun core gameplay and interesting art style was what initially brought me to play the game back in U9.

That was over 3 years ago.

 

I've had some burn out moments, I had to take some breaks from the game.

This time I'm feeling it again, but it's coupled with something else. I don't have any hope for the game left.

There was a time when I watched the devstreams whenever I could, when I was excited about the upcoming features.

 

And now? What do I see in the latest devstream overwiev? More nerfs to credits gain, adding half-baked and simply uninteresting gamemode and mission type to sorties (which are already boring and sometimes tedious). At this point I'm not even excited about any new weapon that might come out, knowing it might have some absurd crafting or research requirements.

Expanding Riven mods into melee? How about you fix the damn things first? There were plenty of threads about Riven mods and their problems in the feedback section, even before secondary and shotgun rivens were introduced and what? The only thing that was changed was 3,5k kuva cap. You can still get a riven which negates your damage or completely removes your ammo pool and nothing was done to fix it.

 

And the whole Hema fiasco. I don't give a damn about some infested bagpipe weapon. But the way the devs approach this situation is just pure bullS#&$.

"it was intended" "drop rates will be altered" "drop rates will not be changed" "it's raining mutagen samples in derelict"

And the last one, my favorite - letting us know that we can shove our feedback as they don't care about it.

What, do they think we're idiots? At least have the guts to admit you made a mistake instead of trying to bullS#&$ us with some crap explanations that make no sense whatsoever.

 

It feels like the two pillars, developer transparency and manageable grind are going away.

If that would be the case over three years ago, I wouldn't even bother myself with Warframe.

 

I am very disappointed. It saddens me to see how the devs are working so hard to destroy this supposed "child of love" of theirs.

It seems they're trying to milk it as much as possible.

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, Vermitore said:

Yeah, you might have, but if our present understanding of economics and consumer behaviour is anything to go by, you need to nudge consumers along every now and then if you don't want to see revenues dry up, your game fail commercially and your company be wound up.

So that's why Warframe was one of Steam's 24 top income generating games for 2016, despite being f2p?

No, you don't need to 'force' people to spend money on your game to be profitable.

That's a very short-term view and completely undervalues the goodwill that DE has built up with its players over the last few years.

[Ciaus]

32 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Suck it up.

Stop posting on these threads. 

[The above is an equally valid and worthwhile to read and post statement as yours.]
[consider that for a moment]

[Siekier]

1 hour ago, k05h said:

I live in a country where it rains often. From my experience on rain I can say with 100% certainty that 1 drop per minute is not considered rain. I went to check the science behind it.

The smallest form of rain, drizzle, is considered 14 drops per second or 84 drops per minute. Therefore from a scientific point of view the sentence "It is raining mutagen in the derelict" is wrong.

If you are interested in the form of rains:
http://www.kgbanswers.com/how-many-raindrops-fall-in-one-second/4191107

If you are intested in the drop chance of mutagen in derelict missions

 

Well, what can you expect from devs who don't know their own game?

[SonicSonedit]

21 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

~16 hours.

16 hours of mindless grinding for a single item.

This game became really too have on grind, if people think that 16 hours of grind for a single weapon is okay.

[GKDK]

5 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

Yeah, you might have, but if our present understanding of economics and consumer behaviour is anything to go by, you need to nudge consumers along every now and then if you don't want to see revenues dry up, your game fail commercially and your company be wound up.

Totally understand your point, that's business at the end of the day. But there are better ways to nudge consumers. I have no information or numbers on how well skins, tennogens, prime access, prime vaults make, but I'm sure they must be good if they can land Warframe on the gold place in the recent Steam revenue making list.

So these small insignificant weapons that are made near impossible to get for alot of people just makes it seem too greedy or forced to play/grind. That's not good for DE and the playerbase from all the amount of salt spreading around. 

[Megakruemel]

2 minutes ago, SonicSonedit said:

16 hours of mindless grinding for a single item.

This game became really too have on grind, if people think that 16 hours of grind for a single weapon is okay.

It would be okay, if it would happen on the side.

We collect nearly every other resource just by doing missions. Mutagen only drops in 2 locations you would normally not visit for any other reason.

[Doc-Orange]

In my playtime I cannot remember such an amount of negative posts about a topic. The absolutly majority of all the posts is against the Hema cost and a reaction of DE which is a slap in the face of the community.

I see [DE]Rebecca and [DE]Megan making all these nice videos but where is the MANAGEMENT of this topic. There would be so much what they can do. They could provide some numbers about the farming rate, they could MANAGE the discussions, not close them. They could provide numbers about the actual research rate - nothing. [DE] uses statistics so much to proof success - in this topic I never saw a figure. How many clans did the research before Steves announcement? 1, 2 or 1000?

I mentioned this before - community management is for sunny moments - manage the negative moments, too, pls.

The actual biggest time investement is not playing anymore. It's reading here in the forums. It's like a love of the past. Not interested in the love anymore - only curios to see how its going on. For a game this is a pity. No gaming, no money. I really like some of the Tennogen stuff and normally I would have bought 3 or 4 pieces. Instead I bought only the Frost deluxe with plat which is already there. Why should I buy something for a game where I play only because of usualness and not fun.

I won't say that this will never change to good again - I had so many plans with buying und farming rivens, kuva...but no fun.

Have to go now - playing VR games

 

[Ciaus]

33 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

For your reading pleasure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_and_figurative_language

 

• Figurative (or non-literal) language uses words deviating from their proper definitions in order to achieve a more complicated understanding or heightened effect.^[1] Figurative language is often achieved by presenting words in order for them to be equated, compared, or associated with other normally unrelated words or meanings.

It's a bleddy strong deviation I'll give you that much. 
The comparison is ineffective as the figurative use of the word rains implies a rather high number of samples is going to drop in some perceptively short time interval, such as a human attention span. 
Given that an entire ODD run drops few enough of the things that you can often count them on your digits alone, the metaphor fails miserably and can be taken as veiled sarcasm or total dismissal of the truth of the situation. Your pick. 

[Rhekemi]

6 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

That sentence during the devstream was just adding insult to injury.

You know what's funny? When I read that line in the OP, I thought it was @Ciaus' sarcastic comment on DE's decision/announcement during the Devstream. (I hadn't watched the stream.)

Surprising to know it was Steve's comment, but doesn't change anything I said in my post earlier.

1 hour ago, Vermitore said:

DE is a nice company with a lot of good ideas, beset by people who want instant and easy gratification. That is why we have no difficult content presently that requires the remotest amount of planning, skill and expertise to overcome. That, and for whatever reason DE seems preoccupied with vapid things like fashion frame. I suppose it sells. I guess that's something which it has in common with the Hema, but you don't see droves of people complain about the cost of the latest 'Unicorn Testicles Strewn Across Neon Chopping Board' syandana that we see an iteration of fortnightly. I digress.

Speaking of disingenuous, I think not acknowledging that DE chose to make the game it wanted to make is exactly that--disingenuous. I readily admit DE spoils the community with the level of involvement, feedback, and quick turn around on things the community disagrees with, but all those traits have become a part of DE's identity.

But do I think a bratty community forced the game to become what it is, or was? No. Steve, and DE, had a strong vision for what they wanted to build, and while they built it with the community, I don't think he or they would ever get walked on and pressed into making something they didn't want to make. (Not after their history with Sony and having to create a bastardized version of their own dream game. Not after working as hired guns, of sorts, in gaming for years before now, finally, striking out on their own.)

It isn't the end of the world that DE's doing the exact opposite now. It isn't the end of the world that they're moving toward MMO models they defied. It isn't the end of the world if players can't build the Hema instantly, get stuck with a cyst out of the blue, or have a buggy companion.

In the context of the game, though, and not real life? It's disappointing for a lot of us. Including me, and I'm very chill about DE. I quite like them as people. I think the game they made is pretty cool. 

So, your point's taken, but it's also just ball-busting.

A customer expressed his irritation, feelings, disappointment and said he wasn't going to buy the product anymore, or play it. He didn't bust DE's balls, or bash them as people. I don't really see what's wrong with that, though I do admit I wouldn't stop playing over this. But I'm a different kind of player, and a different kind of customer.

If someone's offering no discernible feedback, no actual customer opinion, and is being an a**hole or devbashing, hey, by all means, drop-kick him in a post or report it. But can we just not bust each others balls (have I said balls enough for you guys?) over legitimate feelings?

Quote

No solution will be good for everyone. Assuredly not one solution will please every player, developer, shareholder and stakeholder. Not. One.

Indeed. I guess pleasing the majority (and I don't know who that is right now. I think the majority of old and aging players aren't cool with this, but he majority of new players might be) is the best way to go?

And as for the fact that it was intentional (raised by many), that possibility exists, and news flash: there's nothing inherently wrong with that in and of itself. They're a company and should be able to sell expensive products while making them difficult to obtain.

But the hemming and hawing, Steve saying he'd like to find ways to address drop rates (which we also asked for), then deciding it can't be done--in fact nothing can be done--is the second thing that upsets people so much.

The first thing, of course, is that it follows an observable pattern in increasingly exorbitant research costs. I wish DE would just say, "Guys. We're sorry, but we've got to do this. Every now and then, you're going to see a highly priced item and the grind for it will be tough, or you can trade for plat or purchase plat to bypass it. If we don't do this, Warframe isn't sustainable long-term. We need to eat. Pay bills. Stick with us, guys. We're still working our asses off to make the best damn game we can, even if we have to do this sometimes and you don't like it. Eat your peas, and we'll still bake that great cake you like." (The catch is Taylor actually did tell us "This is how it is, guys" originally and, well, we didn't take it well and due to being spoiled by DE's quick turnarounds on other mistakes, thought, "Surely, the team will get back and rectify this." Then things got worse when they called it a mistake. So, yeah, it's a mess neither DE or the community knows how to get out of, but most of us just want it to never be repeated at this point.)

That's what older, paying customers who support the game would probably like to hear.

The more DE throws out "maybe we could do this" and cannot follow through with it, the more people feel free to bash or call them liars. I don't think they are inherently liars and dishonest, but I think they're looking at the numbers and seeing the new content is good for the game (which happens to be a business) and upending that is, quite frankly, not ideal from a business standpoint.

But from an integrity standpoint? It's not what the community has come to expect from them.

I think sacrificing that for the financial gain (which is completely understandable: games are dead without profit, just as they are without an active community of players, and new content) while giving players' false hope is a mistake. Even if it doesn't seem like one now. Even if they feel they'll only do it once in a while.

30 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

Yeah, you might have, but if our present understanding of economics and consumer behaviour is anything to go by, you need to nudge consumers along every now and then if you don't want to see revenues dry up, your game fail commercially and your company be wound up.

There's a difference between a nudge and a shove. Folks took this as a shove. Some older players (by no means all) feel burned out and ready to throw in the towel. Do you actually blame them? They've been asking for QOL changes to clans (which would have actually in turn addressed how hard or easy it is to grind as a clan for the Hema and other items, incentivized clans to play together), those don't happen (it takes time, I know), but new clan research continues to drop.

Economics isn't too hard to understand, and I think we all get it: if DE makes things too easy to obtain, no one will buy it. They'll just grind. That's partially true, but then it also isn't. There are those who buy on principle (especially veterans) to support DE. If they feel the company they support isn't holding to its ideals (why they supported it), they stop buying.

Things like the Hema abandon some existing paying customers. That profit's a loss, so why is it irrelevant? I'm saying it's contradictory to say that financial gains, paying customers, only matter when they just buy the newest item and when they feel they can't on principle.

Then there's the fact that Steam rated WF among the top-selling games of 2016 when the Hema (and corresponding bundle) hadn't even been out for more than, what, 9 days? 

If DE believes that the occasional item like this is necessary (and I disagree, it isn't--and if it is, 3/4 to half that cost would have been reasonable), they're better off just telling players this. I know company politics (of any sort of company) requires folks to obfuscate and spin when needed, but I find it appropriate when the company cannot reasonably tell you the truth. I don't think it's unreasonable here to just level with the community.

I still think there are other ways to turn a good profit without these kinds of needless episodes. Their choice, though. Their company. I know. 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Rhekemi

[Vermitore]

2 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

So that's why Warframe was one of Steam's 24 top income generating games for 2016, despite being f2p?

No, you don't need to 'force' people to spend money on your game to be profitable.

That's a very short-term view and completely undervalues the goodwill that DE has built up with its players over the last few years.

That is a straw man. I am not advocating that players be forced to do anything. Paying for expediency and comfort is a different matter. Also, the way I see it, the less integral something is, the steeper they can go with the non-monetary route of acquisition. I would not condone the decision of DE if they imposed the same requirements in the context of the Galatine Prime, for instance, but then the Hema is hardly a top-tier massacre-engine.

 

2 minutes ago, GKDK said:

Totally understand your point, that's business at the end of the day. But there are better ways to nudge consumers. I have no information or numbers on how well skins, tennogens, prime access, prime vaults make, but I'm sure they must be good if they can land Warframe on the gold place in the recent Steam revenue making list.

So these small insignificant weapons that are made near impossible to get for alot of people just makes it seem too greedy or forced to play/grind. That's not good for DE and the playerbase from all the amount of salt spreading around. 

 

I agree with you and with ChuckMaverick to the extent that this decision may have had an impact on goodwill. Perhaps it is a poor decision from that perspective, but in terms of the aim of fostering a fair monetisation system and good game balance, I don't really think that imposing steep requirements on a poor, albeit mechanically and visually unique, weapon is particularly injurious of the game economy or balance.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

1 hour ago, WhiteMarker said:

And spaming topics is not the way to go.
Go and post in one of the other topics...

This is nothing compared to people giving DE death threats when they reduced Vacuum's range.

[-N7-Leonhart]

7 hours ago, Jamescell said:

The idea that DE shouldn't fix a clearly unreasonable research cost because some players have farmed the needed mutagen is ridiculous. Such logic can be more generalized to "things shouldn't be fixed for the general betterment of the game because there are players that have suffered with what's broken".

However, regardless of how reasonable DE is being about this issue of "fairness", there is a relatively simple fix: lower the mutagen sample cost and refund players that contributed to the research.

If DE's real motivations for not changing the price are simply out of "fairness" to those that have already researched the Hema, then there's no reason reject this solution.

Prove that this isn't a blatant cash grab, DE. Lower the cost and refund players.

You are making a wrong assumption somewhere. That is, the fact that DE actually feels bad about it, lmao. It's not out of "fairness" that they don't want to change the prices. It was intentional, after all to put very high costs. After that, they only needed to find words to sugarcoat it in order to keep it as it is.

Also

7 hours ago, Iceheart125 said:

's been a month, man. if a clan doesn't have it, that's not a biggie. it's a decent weapon from what ive seen, but... it's really not worth the fuss. they made a choice, and they're allowed to do that. no, i dont like it either, but if i want it that badly, ill just work some for it.

really, really, not worth all this fuss over it.

[(PSN)R_U_I-TUGA]

2 hours ago, Reifnir said:

Cool. Now imagine you have 4 people who can actively contribute to Sample farm (600 samples per 20-wave ODD) in a Storm clan and rejoice at the prospect of repeating that 4-man, booster-equipped 20-wave ODD run 80+ times. More, if you don't use boosters.

For one mastery-fodder grade weapon.

That, or you'll have to kick people out because they don't farm and hire new "farmhands". 

i kick 86 members to return to storm again. but all the players i kick are more than two weeks inactive and low MR 1,2,3,4.  my clan only have 1 moth.  and  the leader off my clan offer some plat to higher donations with proof of course. 

[bubbabenali]

Compare to Akkad one a minute is like a flood, but thats not the real problem here.

You remember the good old times when you did boring solo runs in the Void the whole day, because recruiting chat sucks balls and your friends have given up on Warframe already?
Now do the same all over again on a significant worse looking and lulling Tileset...

DE never fails to deliver

[Denizium]

I've been playing this game for three years now, but this really kills my desire to continue. It's just not fun anymore.

[Doc-Orange]

5 hours ago, SilvaDreams said:

Bring a Nekros and Hydroid, they'll be raining.

A single solo 20 minute ODS runs with my Nekros yeilds anywhere between 90-150 depending on RNG and how good of spawns I get.

Oh, great with an average of 100 per 20 min I will only need 15h of pure playtime for the missiong 4500 in my one man clan. This will be fun. Beside of this I herat other lower figures but I wont even try because this is the mother of boredom!