HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[ChuckMaverick]

8 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

Perhaps it is a poor decision from that perspective, but in terms of the aim of fostering a fair monetisation system and good game balance, I don't really think that imposing steep requirements on a poor, albeit mechanically and visually unique, weapon is particularly injurious of the game economy or balance.

My main complaints with the Hema resource costs are not with DE wanting to earn money, or with increasing the effort required to obtain the item (although the scale of the increase is unprecedented).

My main problem is precisely that these resource costs and the way they impact different groups of players are not fair or balanced at all.

Looking at the current state of clans, and DE will have actual statistics so they can't claim ignorance on this, there are many solo ghost clans, many large clans which are not full for their tier, and many clans where a few meet the research requirements for the whole clan.

Dropping a new weapon into the game which assumes full clans and full participation (a situation which nobody believes is the norm) to achieve a reasonable target of 500 mutagen samples per player, is just ignoring the reality of clans in Warframe.

[Flirk2]

6 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

Anyway, what types of games you are interesting in? I can recommend a few games. Maybe gift you if I got spare copies that I brought because I wanted to support the developers.

Thank you. The article you linked to (http://www.tennoclocknews.com/analysis-of-resource-costs/) sums it up quite nicely.

As for the games, thank you for the offer, but no. I don't even have a Steam account. :-) At the moment I have more fun watching let's plays than I would have playing those games.

A year ago playing Warframe was like being in a country with higher living standards and a reasonable government. Now it feels like my own government has invaded that country...

When I said about finding another hobby I was thinking about learning a little of C++ and such.

I had more fun making those charts with Python's pylab than from all the mutagen sample farming combined. And definitely more fun making a very basic Monte-Carlo simulation to see how many times I needed to kill Tyl Regor to get all the Equinox parts than getting those parts.

[Harutora-Joushiro]

16 hours ago, Aratir said:

Actually you need to research it because every weapon from now on will have it as a requirement.

Ohh so that means 1st buy it for 225 platinum and then spend a thousand more platinum to buy research it......and here i thought EA were to most greedy game company of all time....

[Rhekemi]

15 hours ago, JSharpie said:

The reason people are struggling is because they don't want to kick their inactive members because they love that they have a larger clan. It's not DE's fault, and it's 100% on the players for being stubborn.

This glosses over many valid complaints about and issues with the way DE handled the Hema research requirements and the increasingly exorbitant costs of some clan research items. DE does bear responsibility for those issues where their actions are concerned, just as players should bear it for kicking all their friends out of their clan or any other unscrupulous actions.

15 hours ago, heskaroid said:

Careful, some people might make witty remarks against you that could leech off upvotes from other people. 

Factually speaking, critical posts of DE gain more upvotes. I think that's because when someone expresses what others feel, they're more prone to agree with an upvote (especially if they can't express it themselves). Upvotes for witty remarks gain upvotes in other kinds of topics, most times.

12 hours ago, DSkycroft said:

We should just get as many people as we can to message them on social media until they realize that we aren't going to go away.

NVM,that won't work. Steve appears to be ignoring me now on Twitter...

I was just about to tell you that was a bad idea, when I read your second line and laughed. Sorry. But it was funny. He had every right to block you, as anyone does on that medium (or similar ones).

You have to think of people's Twitter accounts as a bit of an extension of their personal space, and you all but acknowledge that by choosing to go to their SM over other methods. You're better off making polite complaints, here, on the forum and on the subreddit.

12 hours ago, DSkycroft said:

Not spamming either. I very nicely said that there are people who are upset about this and that it isn't "Raining Mutagen" in the Derelicts.

On Twitter, it doesn't matter. Not just for Steve, but for anyone. If you bugged me on Twitter, hypothetically, about something and I didn't care for it (especially if I was hearing it from several people already), I'd be well within my rights to block you. Polite or not.

[Vermitore]

3 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

Speaking of disingenuous, I think not acknowledging that DE chose to make the game it wanted to make is exactly that--disingenuous. I readily admit DE spoils the community with the level of involvement, feedback, and quick turn around on things the community disagrees with, but all those traits have become a part of DE's identity.

It isn't the end of the world that DE's doing the exact opposite now. It isn't the end of the world that they're moving toward MMO models they defied. It isn't the end of the world if players can't build the Hema instantly, get stuck with a cyst out of the blue, or have a buggy companion.

In the context of the game, though, and not real life? It's disappointing for a lot of us. Including me, and I'm very chill about DE. I quite like them as people. I think the game they made is pretty cool. 

So, your point's taken, but it's also just ball-busting.

A customer expressed his irritation, feelings, disappointment and said he wasn't going to buy the product anymore, or play it. He didn't bust DE's balls, or bash them as people. I don't really see what's wrong with that, though I do admit I wouldn't stop playing over this. But I'm a different kind of player, and a different kind of customer.

If someone's offering no discernible feedback, no actual customer opinion, and is being an a**hole or devbashing, hey, by all means, drop-kick him in a post or report it. But can we just not bust each others balls (have I said balls enough for you guys?) over legitimate feelings?

Firstly, thank you for your reply.  I appreciate that you put forward a lengthy collection of reasoned arguments, whether I agree with them or not.

Now, to the matter at hand. I don't know. What game did DE have in mind? This is just my opinion, but I don't think they have had a very coherent idea of what they wanted, beyond the rudiments of the game. I mean, their financial circumstances have changed as much as the popularity of the game throughout the course of the years, so it is difficult to stay on track when you are having to account for a greater budget and the heightened expectations which go with it.

That said, I think most developers of games which blend sci-fi and fantasy would likely define narrative excellence, a compelling atmosphere and mechanical engagement as hallmarks of a good game. I agree with you that being mellow and attentive has been one of DE's principal traits, but even if that is so, I support artistic vision and integrity and recognising commercial realities over catering to every whim of the player base.

Without going too deeply into economics and psychology and derailing the topic, it is a prominent position amongst economics and social sciences scholars that customers are mostly not rational actors. Their choices do not always translate into bettering themselves in some way and they can also be detrimental to their own interests. For that reason, I would actually prefer if DE was somewhat more cogent, coherent and disciplined in its approach to implementing things and delivering things in a sort of roadmap system.

It is not my intention to try to be the thought-police here. People are evidently free to believe whatever they want in relation to ethics in digital commerce. At the same time, as an observer, I feel it is important to point out that some of the claims made by disgruntled customers are exaggerated. It is important to point this out so as to avoid creating an echo chamber where consumer demands and complaints predominate to such an extent that DE is unable to obtain realistic and statistically useful feedback, and if anyone needs such feedback, in light of their amenability, it is DE.

Also, there are a lot of things which disappoint me about Warframe. There are a great deal more things which I think are impressive. And yes, perhaps I was mistaken to call it disingenuous, but the contrast between showering DE with money abandoning their creation altogether over a minor matter such as the Hema, while it may not be completely impossible, is an overreaction of sizeable proportions.

 

29 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

Indeed. I guess pleasing the majority (and I don't know who that is right now. I think the majority of old and aging players aren't cool with this, but he majority of new players might be) is the best way to go?

And as for the fact that it was intentional (raised by many), that possibility exists, and news flash: there's nothing inherently wrong with that in and of itself. They're a company and should be able to sell expensive products while making them difficult to obtain.

But the hemming and hawing, Steve saying he'd like to find ways to address drop rates (which we also asked for), then deciding it can't be done--in fact nothing can be done--is the second thing that upsets people so much.

The first thing, of course, is that it follows an observable pattern in increasingly exorbitant research costs. I wish DE would just say, "Guys. We're sorry, but we've got to do this. Every now and then, you're going to see a highly priced item and the grind for it will be tough, or you can trade for plat or purchase plat to bypass it."

The more DE throws out "maybe we could do this" and cannot follow through with it, the more people feel free to bash or call them liars. I don't think they are inherently liars and dishonest, but I think they're looking at the numbers and seeing the new content is good for the game (which happens to be a business) and upending that is, quite frankly, not ideal from a business standpoint.

But from an integrity standpoint? It's not what the community has come to expect from them.

I think sacrificing that for the financial gain (which is completely understandable: games are dead without profit, just as they are without an active community of players, and new content) while giving players' false hope is a mistake. Even if it doesn't seem like one now. Even if they feel they'll only do it once in a while.

I agree that DE should have delivered a decisive response. I disagree that they have to explain the odd exorbitantly priced item, unless items priced at the rate of the Hema come to predominate. Besides, DE has a strange lack of consistency in many matters. It seems to me like balancing the game and the costs around the quality of items is something they struggle with. I think in general it might be because they lack the resources for stringent balancing that item prices and quality seems to be all over the place.

I do agree that DE has some backbone problems, but that is what you get when you compromise too much on artistic vision and commercial realities. This is an impediment of their own making. I think we are in complete agreement here in concluding that reneging on the initial impression and direction is not an exemplary move as far as integrity is concerned.

1 hour ago, Rhekemi said:

There's a difference between a nudge and a shove. Folks took this as a shove. Some older players (by no means all) feel burned out and ready to throw in the towel. Do you actually blame them? They've been asking for QOL changes to clans (which would have actually in turn addressed how hard or easy it is to grind as a clan for the Hema and other items, incentivized clans to play together), those don't happen (it takes time, I know), but new clan research continues to drop.

Economics isn't too hard to understand, and I think we all get it: if DE makes things too easy to obtain, no one will buy it. They'll just grind. That's partially true, but then it also isn't. There are those who buy on principle (especially veterans) to support DE. If they feel the company they support isn't holding to its ideals (why they supported it), they stop buying.

Things like the Hema abandon some existing paying customers. That profit's a loss, so why is it irrelevant? I'm saying it's contradictory to say that financial gains, paying customers, only matter when they just buy the newest item and when they feel they can't on principle.

Then there's the fact that Steam rated WF among the top-selling games of 2016 when the Hema (and corresponding bundle) hadn't even been out for more than, what, 9 days? 

If DE believes that the occasional item like this is necessary (and I disagree, it isn't--and if it is, 3/4 to half that cost would have been reasonable), they're better off just telling players this. I know company politics (of any sort of company) requires folks to obfuscate and spin when needed, but I find it appropriate when the company cannot reasonably tell you the truth. I don't think it's unreasonable here to just level with the community.

I still think there are other ways to turn a good profit without these kinds of needless episodes. Their choice, though. Their company. I know. 

 

I would count myself as an older player, as I have been playing Warframe on and off for a fair while now. I agree with you wholeheartedly on the QoL changes too. Warframe is far too obstructive in areas which are not or not sharply monetised. We can conclude that these impediments therefore are a result of oversight rather than monetisation strategy, but I agree with you all the same that Warframe needs polish. We all agree, I should think.

I think the reason for the obfuscation which you pointed out is that DE is walking a precarious line between shareholders and stakeholders. It is cynical to say this, but consumers don't matter in the abstract for the purposes of the financial and corporate governance of DE. They matter only in the context of long, medium and short term profit. Accordingly, for DE to continue development, not only do they have to justify the easy availability of digital goods to shareholders, they have to justify the contrary to stakeholders.

I am fairly certain that DE as a studio would rather if Warframe was a non-monetised, completely free game commissioned by some savant, visionary billionaire patron of the digital arts and entirely financed by him. But alas, that is not the case. At the end of the day, I think that with f2p games, the more profits they rake in, the more, in turn, they can justify providing alluring free content. In light of this, I think of the occasional steeply priced item as the 'comfort tax'. It is a way to extract money out of people who cannot resist the allure of an item. Also, the release of the Hema roughly coincided with the closing of the Prime Vault. I think it is fairly reasonable to say that the Hema rather conveniently eliminates the platinum that was pumped into the game during the open vault, thereby preventing inflation and the devaluation of widely available items in the absence of an open vault. I think it is a clever decision, they are, after all, the sole purveyor of safe platinum.

I agree that there are better ways to turn a profit, but I think more than anything, DE needs a disciplined effort to develop the game along a certain line and to develop a monetisation strategy to match the content implemented along that line. Alas, because DE seems extremely whimsical at times and fickle, they are having to contend with the hurdle of inconsistency. 

[Zedasfogueiras]

well the problem is 1-DE doesnt play the game enough to know how to balance research costs 2-The problem of the grind will stay since there isnt much fun challenge or a good reward system (the corrot on the stick is missing) to make fun farming any mission 3-they burned away too many bridges with the comunity last year and they still right now 

Its a shame but they are doing so much damage to their own game...

[k05h]

2 hours ago, -Mandalorian-Tenno- said:

14 drops per second and 84 drops per minute sounds waaay off

14 drops x 60 seconds = 840 drops per minute.

Ooops ... I corrected it

 

2 hours ago, Vermitore said:

For your reading pleasure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_and_figurative_language

This is 25 waves with booster.  

If you call 294 mutagen samples rain. What do you call 150578 nano spores?

[Helljack84]

I'm cool with it, at least they stated they won't do it again. It's totally not like they pulled of the same thing again and again, they just forgot about it or something. 

[k05h]

1 minute ago, Helljack84 said:

I'm cool with it, at least they stated they won't do it again. It's totally not like they pulled of the same thing again and again, they just forgot about it or something. 

They also stated last year that they would reduce the grind. Just saying ...

Edited January 21, 2017 by k05h

[Vermitore]

6 minutes ago, k05h said:

Ooops ... I corrected it

 

This is 25 waves with booster.  

If you call 294 mutagen samples rain. What do you call 150578 nano spores?

Deluge.

[Etharien]

8 minutes ago, k05h said:

Ooops ... I corrected it

 

This is 25 waves with booster.  

If you call 294 mutagen samples rain. What do you call 150578 nano spores?

I call it different rarity tiers. You wouldn't compare your intake of orokin cells to alloy plate, would you?

[Ditto132]

1 hour ago, Flirk2 said:

Thank you. The article you linked to (http://www.tennoclocknews.com/analysis-of-resource-costs/) sums it up quite nicely.

As for the games, thank you for the offer, but no. I don't even have a Steam account. :-) At the moment I have more fun watching let's plays than I would have playing those games.

A year ago playing Warframe was like being in a country with higher living standards and a reasonable government. Now it feels like my own government has invaded that country...

When I said about finding another hobby I was thinking about learning a little of C++ and such.

I had more fun making those charts with Python's pylab than from all the mutagen sample farming combined. And definitely more fun making a very basic Monte-Carlo simulation to see how many times I needed to kill Tyl Regor to get all the Equinox parts than getting those parts.

While most let's plays are sufficient, quite a number of games really require hand-on to experience how the developers intended it to be played. I might know some let's plays that would be worth your time to catch out, just not sure what types you are after. Some are awesome that are best not to spoil it :D

Hmm, so you are interested in programming? Python and Javascript are quite ok for when you just want to get thing done (rapid prototyping). As for C++, it is slightly more involved (probably need more codes to get the same thing done). Since I got Computer Science background, I can give advice, just don't be too alarm if I got too technical. haha

Since you have fun in making those charts, take a look at my profile, maybe some links there might interest you.

[Rhekemi]

54 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

Firstly, thank you for your reply.

I have to say the same. Thank you for the reply. I enjoyed the read not only because these threads are so much better when we get down to the actual issues, but because there's plenty of practical truth to your points--just about all of which are either valid if I disagree, or I agree with. You've contextualized some things about the back end of the gaming industry (and to a degree, business) that some gamers tend to inherently understand, but not fully. (I'm one of those people at times.)

I hate getting drawn into debates because I always have a feeling they'll go wrong, and it's a waste of time, but responses like this validate the process every time, and illustrate there is no easy answer, and no one issue is ever really black and white.

I've also regained some understanding for DE I lost due to this. Thanks for that.

Quote

I think the reason for the obfuscation which you pointed out is that DE is walking a precarious line between shareholders and stakeholders. It is cynical to say this, but consumers don't matter in the abstract for the purposes of the financial and corporate governance of DE. They matter only in the context of long, medium and short term profit. Accordingly, for DE to continue development, not only do they have to justify the easy availability of digital goods to shareholders, they have to justify the contrary to stakeholders.

While you're right about my earlier point and they're not obligated to explain this to players, your explanation of it, which is likely very plausible, matters a great deal to this ongoing debate.

What we say, how we say it, matters. Communication and understanding make all the difference in how people, even if they're prone to acting against their own interests as customers, react to changes.

DE understands this and uses it to their advantage, but that accessibility can clearly also be a disadvantage when they misfire. 

I still think if they gave it to us straight, we'd find a way to be okay with it. In a way, it's trusting your base to understand--at least a good deal of them--rather than believing they can't and never would, or coming up with spin to obfuscate something they actually might understand.

Those who will be irrational and accuse you of being greedy doppelgangers who ate the former versions of yourself will probably do it anyways, but fear (of change) and anger (in reaction to it) is often based in ignorance.

Other times it's being wary of lies, and turning cynical because of them and other betrayals of trust--even in something as insignificant as gaming. We're still humans who are wired to work a certain way, we still feel it and it leads to varying reactions.

No, I'm not saying I feel DE lied, or betrayed our trust, or that I know that. I'd like to believe it's as you've stated and is a result of them not telling us the facts, which leads to ignorance, which leads to fear and anger.

DE choosing to communicate the facts, as generally unprecedented as it is in gaming and fully acknowledging how open DE has already been, is knowledge to blunt the spread of ignorance.

On the community's part, having some faith in DE's history is called for, and, yes, not freaking out about everything, but trying to work through it as clearheaded as possible. 

I'm torn.

I felt like I'd tried that from the first response from Taylor when many drew the line then and there, to Steve's initial response, and the next one after that. I waited. Tried to see how and why things were the way they were.

Then, after the mixed messages, no changes to the cost, no drop rate increase. Find a way to farm it in Derelict where it's, apparently, raining samples.

I think I'm just a little burnt out as regards faith in others due circumstances unrelated to WF actually. It's slipping into my outlook here. I also don't at all think I'm entirely wrong about DE making the wrong decision. But I do see how they could have arrived at it due to your valid points, and that nothing's ever black and white. (I didn't really think it was, but yeah.)

Quote

I am fairly certain that DE as a studio would rather if Warframe was a non-monetised, completely free game commissioned by some savant, visionary billionaire patron of the digital arts and entirely financed by him. But alas, that is not the case. At the end of the day, I think that with f2p games, the more profits they rake in, the more, in turn, they can justify providing alluring free content. In light of this, I think of the occasional steeply priced item as the 'comfort tax'. It is a way to extract money out of people who cannot resist the allure of an item. Also, the release of the Hema roughly coincided with the closing of the Prime Vault. I think it is fairly reasonable to say that the Hema rather conveniently eliminates the platinum that was pumped into the game during the open vault, thereby preventing inflation and the devaluation of widely available items in the absence of an open vault. I think it is a clever decision, they are, after all, the sole purveyor of safe platinum.

Generally agree.

Quote

I agree that there are better ways to turn a profit, but I think more than anything, DE needs a disciplined effort to develop the game along a certain line and to develop a monetisation strategy to match the content implemented along that line. Alas, because DE seems extremely whimsical at times and fickle, they are having to contend with the hurdle of inconsistency. 

This, and your earlier comment that they might not have known what they wanted to be, rings true. 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Rhekemi

[ChuckMaverick]

21 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

I still think if they gave it to us straight, we'd find a way to be okay with it. In a way, it's trusting your base to understand--at least a good deal of them--rather than believing they can't and never would, or coming up with spin to obfuscate something they actually might understand.

Pretty much this.

Now matter how unpalatable you may think the truth is, the theories that will pop up in a vacuum of communication will always be worse.

Just tell us how it is, most of us are grown up enough to take it.

To add to that, while players are very good at identifying problems, it's much harder to do that when the goal of a change isn't communicated and we're left trying to analyse it with no context.

[Kawalorn]

9 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Pretty much this.

Now matter how unpalatable you may think the truth is, the theories that will pop up in a vacuum of communication will always be worse.

Just tell us how it is, most of us are grown up enough to take it.

To add to that, while players are very good at identifying problems, it's much harder to do that when the goal of a change isn't communicated and we're left trying to analyse it with no context.

Not to mention they not only didn't communicate a reason but then went to that obviously false excuse "we don't want to lower the cost because some people already achieved it".

They didn't even bother to think of something realistic and ended up angering people even more.

[Naskoni]

7 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Pretty much this.

Now matter how unpalatable you may think the truth is, the theories that will pop up in a vacuum of communication will always be worse.

Just tell us how it is, most of us are grown up enough to take it.

To add to that, while players are very good at identifying problems, it's much harder to do that when the goal of a change isn't communicated and we're left trying to analyse it with no context.

I think the goal of this "change" and the problems that came out of it have been pretty apparent to a lot of people from the very beginning. As for context you'd only need to look at previous "stretch goals" and the lies comments made by DE at the time.

[Naskoni]

Just now, Kawalorn said:

Not to mention they not only didn't communicate a reason but then went to that obviously false excuse "we don't want to lower the cost because some people already achieved it".

They didn't even bother to think of something realistic and ended up angering people even more.

Yes, they simply should have said "Because we want you to buy it with plat" and that would have had a significantly better effect on the whole situation. Or maybe not...

[ChuckMaverick]

9 minutes ago, Naskoni said:

Yes, they simply should have said "Because we want you to buy it with plat" and that would have had a significantly better effect on the whole situation. Or maybe not...

If DE had stated that they wanted to generate more income (assuming this is even the reason) then I would have been absolutely fine with that as a goal.

At least players could then have had a sensible discussion about the best way to implement it that was fair to all and would make them feel good about their purchases rather than 'forced' into them.

As I've said in other threads, I've spent more on Warframe than any other game (excluding WoW subs and xpacs, and those aren't optional) and every purchase I have made I have been happy with. They felt like genuine choices and not something that I had to do, and that is one of the aspects that I have always loved about DE and their monetisation approach for Warframe.

Edited January 21, 2017 by ChuckMaverick

[Naskoni]

3 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

If DE had stated that they wanted to generate more income (assuming this is even the reason) then I would have been absolutely fine with that as a goal.

At least players could then have had a sensible discussion about the best way to implement it that was fair to all and would make them feel good about their purchases rather than 'forced' into them.

As I've said in other threads, I've spent more on Warframe than any other game (excluding WoW subs and xpacs, and those aren't optional) and every purchase I have made I have been happy with. They felt like genuine choices and not something that I had to do, and that is one of the aspects that I have always loved about DE and their monetisation approach for Warframe.

 

[Metronome]

8 hours ago, Yetman said:

"Mutagen samples are raining"

Made this for you

 

http://i.imgur.com/oU7miUk.gifv

 

Edit: I would just embed it but I have no clue how.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Metronome

[SnuggleBuckets]

On 1/19/2017 at 4:44 PM, Naskoni said:

Absolutely nothing about the Hema is new, simply all previous attempts have failed to incite players to buy stuff directly with plat, rather than craft it. I guess DE simply gave up on trying to find an elegant solution to the problem and simply decided to jack up the costs so much that people simply had no real choice anymore. That and previous comments how they intend to continue doing so and specifically regarding clantech - it's simply more "efficient" for reasons listed probably 100 times already. Given their podcast immediately after the last dev stream its working as Rebecca was so proud to announce that now as many Hemas were bought as were crafted. It's on purpose and that's why it's staying. It has absolutely nothing to do with "honouring" anybody nor is it about promoting more clan cooperation. It's simply about making more plat out of new content and especially about doing so with people that have played for far too long and have too many resources.

Sadly I'm not surprised that the statistics would show a 50/50 split between players buying and crafting the Hema, but that leaves out a more important statistic I would be interested in hearing about and which would be more relevant to DE business strategies: How does Hema purchases compare to all the other market weapons? If it's lower than others on the market then it doesn't help the devs much in making money in the long run.

[bubbabenali]

Not because the keys are expensive or hard to get.

But because setting up a team with the crapy chat suck balls - a complete disater in "pick up and play" terms compared to standard public play.

Keep Lephantis behind a key wall, I dont care but the different missions could be another Junktion bonus.
As of now the only "fast" way to get the Hema researched is solo pumping the Derilict day-in, day-out.
Geez, the fact that the tile set looks so booring isn't helping much to combat a Derilict fatigue.

Wait, wasn't there something aubout "fatigue"? Oh right wasn't fatigue the reason you changed the whole Primes system, so ppl could get out of the Void?

[Jackviator]

+1. 

Also, they could actually follow through on what they said about buffing Mutagen Sample drop rates elsewhere already...

[Buff00n]

Okay, one last upvote-bait before I shut up about this forever.

[xXDeadsinxX]

Yeah I agree.