HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Retrijeuj]

1 hour ago, k05h said:

Buying a weapon is not the same as research for the complete clan.

And research means there will be another weapon the needs Hema to be researched. 

Yes, yes, you've all been using this argument like it's a fact and it's done before they give you new ways of farming mutagens. You should try to come up with your own arguments now.

I'll say it again, it's just a weapon. It's 3k mastery points. And if another research has the Hema as recquirement, it's still just another weapon. If they did this for a frame, ok, that would suck, and I'd be with you. But not for a weapon, the list of weapons I want to craft and forma a few times is still pretty long, and I have enough to keep myself busy for a long while. Because I don't go for cheesy missions like people used to on Draco, for example. I play to play, not to get everything available.

As for clans with half people inactive, just dump them. That's what I did when I realised we had a clan two ranks above of what it really was. Of course, it's better when you run a clan with friends, rather than with complete strangers, this way you can contact them outside of the game to let them know they're not in the clan anymore since they haven't been online since a few months, but they're welcome to join again when they return.

Also, some people told me about how research costs are scaled to veteran players. Where's the problem ? When you start the game, you have so much to farm, by the time you've completed everything you want to complete, you'll be one of these "veteran players". Do you remember the first time you needed a control module to craft your second frame, and thought it was a rare ressource that would took you some leveling up and farming to get ? I do, and that was awesome. That being said, I didn't have a friend telling me where to get everything, so I had to discover everything on my own.
Back then, when I crafted a new weapon, I was happy to try it, see how I should adapt my playstyle, level it up and still use it at level 30 because I didn't have the mods I needed and had to farm them. Now, I have so many weapons in my forge that I don't even know what to do with them. When I need another one, I just check my profile, search for a weapon I haven't tried yet, buy the BP, craft it, and I'm done. No more running missions to gather one particular ressource, now I have everything I need before I even need it. And that sucks.

tl;dr : the cost on Hema is too high right now, until they give us new ways of farming mutagen samples, but the fact that you'll have to grind to get it is good.

[Flirk2]

23 minutes ago, Retrijeuj said:

And if another research has the Hema as recquirement, it's still just another weapon.

And if the next frame will need 100 nitain, it's just another frame.

And if the next companion will need you to sacrifice 5 prime warframes for it, it's just another companion.

And, after all, Warframe is just another game. You can do without quite easily...

Really some people seem to take convenient hearing to a whole new level.

You are defending exponential resource devaluation like there is no tomorrow. And why? I will never understand. But I'm done trying to convince people who think multiplying a price by 100 is a reasonable course of action.

I'll go on without the weapon.

I'll go on without the next thing with insane cost.

And in about 3 months, I might need to go on without Warframe. I guess, I will always remember the fun it was until 4 hours a day farming with boosters and a pre-made squad started to be a requirement.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Flirk2

[HyokaChan]

On 02/01/2017 at 5:22 PM, ograzzt said:

1. We made a mistake.

2. We didn't fix it fast enough.

3. Solution: do nothing anyway because few clans had stockpiles and big number of active players (c) DE logic, 2016-2017.

They did this back in 2015 too

[Retrijeuj]

1 minute ago, Flirk2 said:

And if the next frame will need 100 nitain, it's just another frame.

 

24 minutes ago, Retrijeuj said:

If they did this for a frame, ok, that would suck, and I'd be with you..

Please read carefully before answering.

[Flirk2]

2 minutes ago, Retrijeuj said:

 

Please read carefully before answering.

You seem to forget that they already did it.

Vauban Prime was 14k oxium and 20 nitain.

Then they lowered it to 7k oxium where it is right now. (still an unreasonable amount, but not as insane as 5k mutagen samples)

But you are OK with it. So, from there 100 nitain will not even be a 100x increase we have with Hema. It's just 5 times. Nothing to worry about, right? You'll get it, eventually. Or it's just another frame...

[Retrijeuj]

1 minute ago, Flirk2 said:

You seem to forget that they already did it.

Vauban Prime was 14k oxium and 20 nitain.

Then they lowered it to 7k oxium where it is right now. (still an unreasonable amount, but not as insane as 5k mutagen samples)

But you are OK with it. So, from there 100 nitain will not even be a 100x increase we have with Hema. It's just 5 times. Nothing to worry about, right? You'll get it, eventually. Or it's just another frame...

20 Nitains is reasonable, and Oxium can be farmed everywhere.

You also seem to forget I don't agree with the 5k mutagen recquirement, so stop using this "100x increase" as an argument. I just said that if the cost is too high, skip the weapon or buy it, not that the price isn't too high.

Also, stop being agressive. Just because we don't agree with each other doesn't mean we need to be at each other's throat.

[Zookes]

As warlord of a clan that researched Hema, I have no issue with a reduced cost / refund of the mutagen samples for other clans to have it sooner also. Farming the samples was not an achievement for me, it was time-consuming and annoying only.

The weapon also is not so special or good, it is like a burston without hitscan. I think instead something for nuking like the Simulor should be behind such expensive resource walls, not this wimpy blood-gun.

[Flirk2]

17 minutes ago, Retrijeuj said:

You also seem to forget I don't agree with the 5k mutagen recquirement, so stop using this "100x increase" as an argument.

It is a valid argument. Because it's a point on the graph. That lets me extrapolate the requirements for the next research. But you can continue to ignore it. I can't force you to acknowledge the trend if you don't want to.

17 minutes ago, Retrijeuj said:

I just said that if the cost is too high, skip the weapon or buy it, not that the price isn't too high.

When you start to skip content... Where do you stop? And what for? I'll skip this, skip that... and then I'll skip the game because there is nothing left to do.

In a game that is all about getting stuff, not getting stuff is just not an option. Because there is no game left then.

17 minutes ago, Retrijeuj said:

Also, stop being agressive. Just because we don't agree with each other doesn't mean we need to be at each other's throat.

I'm not aggressive. I'm frustrated by seeing the same ''buy it if you don't have enough to research it. Or go ODD on a Nekros for 40 hours, and don't forget the boosters''

Because this argument is weak by itself and has nothing to do with the topic.

Most of the people who complain about Hema are not complaining about not having a weapon. They are afraid that if left unchecked, such costs will be implemented again and again.

30k cryotic hammer didn't get this kind of response partly because excavation was and still is the best way to get your mods maxed. But partly because no one cared much about that weapon. It had little to no chance to be a prerequisite to dojo research.

Hema will be a prerequisite to future dojo research. And it sets a very bad precedent.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Flirk2

[DoomFruit]

23 hours ago, Momaw said:

10 days, over Christmas and new years holidays, while nobody from the studio was working, is "long enough to let it fester"?

It's their own damn fault for releasing something which they *knew* had a $&*&*#(%&ly high cost right before a long break.

16 hours ago, Fifilona said:

This this a million times this. Everyone is freaking out because they can't pay this cost right now and they are running the math and thinking about how many runs it will take etc. You do not need to get the dang thing right meow. You don't need to grind it all in one mission or in one night or in 1 week. Hell it could take months years.  I know it took months for me to get all the Equinox drops and the Oxium and Nitain for Vauban Prime. Its okay for things to actually take time to achieve. The grind is always frustrating when you go in with the mindset of needing to finish it immediately. If you know you need mutagen samples, spend more time in the derelict. Bring out your Nekros for an ODS. He is really good at Survival. You can also get Neo and Axi relics there. Try an ODD where you can get Lith and Meso Relics as well as Mutalist Alad V coordinates if you still need them or would like to sell them to someone who does. Not to mention both the Derelict Survival and Defense give out decent amounts of Endo. Mix it up with some Derelict Vault runs and get some super OP Rare Mods. There are lots of great reasons to be in the derelict and while you're there you can get some mutagen samples over time. You do not have to do it all at once and the mutagen samples doesn't even have to be the only thing you focus on. Play the game. Have fun.

There, fixed that for you. I've been playing for 3.5 years. I have 1.6k mutagen samples. The derelict tileset is not a nice place to be - too much crap getting in the way of navigation, lighting too dim to see clearly. Those other parts you mentioned can be found far more easily from far more pleasant tilesets/regions. Grinding out 5k mutagen samples would have to be done deliberately. It is not fun.

My take on this situation: I will ABSOLUTELY not plat out for this. Not only is it counterproductive in that any future research still remains locked behind the unreasonable grindwall, it's basically me telling DE that I approve of their decisions and want to reward them with money. No. This is not acceptable. Something costing literally 10x EVERYTHING ELSE EVER, COMBINED is not reasonable. Especially when it's worthless Draco-tier mastery trash (interestingly, just like the other two hideously expensive clantechs were).

Neither will I grind my soul away to get the mutagen samples required. This cost is too high. I'm not funding it, I'm not having anything to do with this pile of crap at all. Whoever in the art department drew and animated this weapon, your efforts have been thrown away. Whoever thought up and implemented any mechanics which this gun has, anything you did will be overlooked because someone else decided to make it unattainable.

[ShardsSuperior]

To all the people who say it's okay because Hema isn't a required weapon: What if other weapons require Hema research to complete? Then it would become a pretty serious content gate, wouldn't it?

[Retrijeuj]

Just now, ShardsSuperior said:

To all the people who say it's okay because Hema isn't a required weapon: What if other weapons require Hema research to complete? Then it would become a pretty serious content gate, wouldn't it?

It has already been pointed out, though.

[Ciaus]

2 hours ago, Retrijeuj said:

20 Nitains is reasonable, and Oxium can be farmed everywhere.

 

It drops in bundles of 10 from enemies with low spawn rates, the 14K was NEVER reasonable. Again you'd have to heavily metagrind to actually get there in an amount of time that marked a shorter term goal than... I don't know... a university degree. 
Of which I could get roughly 3 before acquiring 5K mutagen samples from passive farming. 

Skipping a weapon because the grind cost is too high instead of pointing it out as an issue is how the game slowly loses it's appeal. Doing a variety of things should be rewarding, and no single goal like the hema should require days of time doing 1 thing from which you profit minimally and have to have a very restricted setup for. Running around with desecrate on the same tileset vs same enemies is going to get old and not feel like a game you play and spend on for enjoyment VERY fast. 

[Shockwave-]

The twitch response shown  suggests this was a mistake by DE. Mistakes need to be corrected. It's that simple. If you made a mistake and don't fix it you are screwing over the entire player base. Now sure some clans have done the research already but that's likely a smaller number than have not done it, so DE seems to be choosing to let the mistake stand and screw over a large number of players instead of fixing the mistake and screwing over a small number (a smaller number that they could compensate with refunded resources etc).

If this was a mistake DE needs to simply own the mistake and not hide behind the fact that some clans researched it in SPITE of the mistake. That seems like the easy (and cowardly) way out. It is saying "sorry we made a mistake and we'd like to fix it but but we can't fix our mistake that harms you because the player beside you acted on it and we can't harm them). Ouch.

DE does not do this when they want to introduce dispositions despite the fact that some players have spent thousands of plat on Riven mods for a strong weapon. Why is the research cost any different than the riven decision? Some players lose out if they jumped early.

[Volinus7]

39 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

The twitch response shown  suggests this was a mistake by DE. Mistakes need to be corrected. It's that simple. If you made a mistake and don't fix it you are screwing over the entire player base. Now sure some clans have done the research already but that's likely a smaller number than have not done it, so DE seems to be choosing to let the mistake stand and screw over a large number of players instead of fixing the mistake and screwing over a small number (a smaller number that they could compensate with refunded resources etc).

If this was a mistake DE needs to simply own the mistake and not hide behind the fact that some clans researched it in SPITE of the mistake. That seems like the easy (and cowardly) way out. It is saying "sorry we made a mistake and we'd like to fix it but but we can't fix our mistake that harms you because the player beside you acted on it and we can't harm them). Ouch.

DE does not do this when they want to introduce dispositions despite the fact that some players have spent thousands of plat on Riven mods for a strong weapon. Why is the research cost any different than the riven decision? Some players lose out if they jumped early.

It spells "greed and evil" in every possible ways. Similar to phishing if you ask me.

[Cristeros]

DE wrote that they wanted  ppl to participate in clan. For me its total BS. From what I observed Hema research caused many clans to die cause many active players (like me) left their clans to start their own solo clans. They just forced us to spend plat on boosters. Id like to be in big clan for community but not in that stupid system, where warlords have no responsibilities after founding the clan. IMO they should make some system requiring active participation from Warlords too. Inactive Warlords in non solo clans should be automatically replaced by next active players. I dont care about cost they've spent on dojo. You invite ppl and they contribute? You have responsibility. Im playing Warframe for over 3 years and have been in many clans. Always at some point was forced to leave cause of clan dying. In my last shadow clan I got max rank but there were 7 inactive warlords. Cause I didnt wanted to kick out few active lower rank players I couldnt reduce clan size.

Looking in the future and expecting more such BS cost researches I just founded my solo clan. That way thanks to DE im no part of any coop clan. Great Thanks!!!

Plz. Make some system that enforces active gameplay on warlords. Loging is not enough cause some warlords just log once a month. Maybe REAL VAULT where resources can be stored for future and accesing completed researches would require repaying some of their reserach cost (stored for future in vault).

Edited January 3, 2017 by Cristeros

[Fifilona]

Research cost are not intended to be funded completely by the stored resources of veteran players even though they largely have been in the past, get over it and help out. If you are in a clan that is too big for the number of players actually in it, send a support ticket and ask them to change the size. I and many others have had to do this before. If your clan is dead leave it and join another one. Also myself and many others have had to do this before. No one is asking you to buy the weapon. No one is making you solo fund the project. If you choose to do that, that is your choice so don't complain about it.

[Cristeros]

You dont need support ticket to reduce clan size if you can kick ppl out. My clan had 7 inactive warlords. Problem is they most of them were loging from time to time but not participating meaning support wouldnt kick them out. In that case clan reduction would allow me just reduce cost x3. Meaning that with 2 free places in best situation I would have to contribute 5000 mutagen samples anyway so I was forced to go solo clan (for future).

Good solution would be tax for buying BPs from labs (lets say 50% of research cost/member with max members number/clan size) exluding ppl who contributed 100% of cost/member. Now many ppl seek clans with rdy research just to buy BPs without any effort. On the other end some clans try to exort platinum for accesing their research. That would solve that and enforce warlords to some activity.

But that would require some work from DE that would sort that data.

[ashrah]

On 1/2/2017 at 9:45 AM, N64Gamefreak said:

It's still a problem.

they will  ignore most of problems all until ppl dont stop to     invaste in game...

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

Any official update on the situation?

[Ciaus]

2 hours ago, Fifilona said:

Research cost are not intended to be funded completely by the stored resources of veteran players even though they largely have been in the past

The issue with this logic is many veteran players have been accumulating resources for thousands of hours passively. Also by being invested in the game earlier, they more easily kept up with the "content treadmill" without having to do major catchup. 

Hence if prices are set to COMPLETELY DEPLETE the stockpile of someone with 2500 hours, and more, there is no feasible way someone with 500-1000 hours can see that as a reasonable goal. Especially with mutagen more than say, cryotic, because there is no reward or reason to passively farm it. 

Also the attitude of the convenient person (who never questions their surroundings), that "deal with it", prevents poor decisions from being reversed. If the community said nothing and people just saw the F2P aspect and fun + progress factor that the game had before slip away, and just *left*, the game would die after a few months. Active players bringing in friends is a huge playerbase builder. Despite living in a country with a 15:1 exchange rate to the dollar I've got friends into the game and paying for content. I won't do that if DE keeps making these decisions. If I said nothing and "dealt with it", playerbase slips away. 

 

2 hours ago, Fifilona said:

If your clan is dead leave it and join another one.

My clan is one I built almost entirely myself, that I use as a way to host my friends when they play. They all have less than 500 hours, but they have access to trade, a pretty dojo they can help to decorate and do research in, and clan research. The previous viability of social clans, newbie-assisting clans and those with many seasonally active players was massive in helping with player retention and creating a positive social atmosphere. The hema research puts these clans underwater. 

 

2 hours ago, Fifilona said:

If you choose to do that, that is your choice so don't complain about it.

DE relies that the players who complained when they did things to chase people away. It's how they can avoid game-crippling mistakes. The F2P game market is vicious and volatile. I play Warframe and bring friends to it because I enjoy it, if I didn't, I wouldn't. Fixing issues like this matters for the existence of the game, our enjoyment and DE's bottom line. While it is certainly a complaint, I have attempted to be as constructive as possible and even given some potential solutions I think many would be satisfied with. 

 

[Ciaus]

11 minutes ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

Any official update on the situation?

Not to my knowledge =/ 
The Devstreams are normally on Friday yes? 

If so I encourage everyone to watch, I think regarding this and the cysts it will be a particularly important one for many people. 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

riven disposition nerfs...

"ah just kidding it's less now."

hundreds of stockpiled keys become trash relics...

"ah just kidding it's less now."

ash bladestorm nerfed...

"ah just kidding it's less now."

thousands of people grinded their butts off for oxium for zephyr, which is totally overabundant nowadays...

"ah just kidding it's less now."

kubrow eggs dropping like candy...

"ah just kidding it's less now."

no need for beacons for hydroid farm anymore...

"ah just kidding it's less now."

no information about a planned introduction of archwing slot costs...

"ah just kidding it's less now." (aka. "yep, surprise")

removing viver / e-gate / draco...

"ah just kidding it's less now."

gammacor ammo consumption...

"ah just kidding it's less now."

basically EVERY rebalance of any weapon / frame ever purchasable in the market...

"ah just kidding it's less now."

 

...

i just can't get over how laughable that response is. and now the first update since christmas vacation: still nothing. not even another official statement...

(btw. i actually support alot of the mentioned nerfs, just some random examples from the back of my head which go completely against the "reasoning" regarding hema costs...)

 

[Sennera]

When I saw no immediate response to the stupidly high Hema cost, I went ahead and left Warframe to see if the devs would address the problem after the holidays. They haven't, obviously, so I'm still on hiatus waiting for the devs to deal with this.

I've got 1243 hours in Warframe right now. It's the most played game in my Steam library and I've played this game literally over twice as much than any other game I've ever touched in my life. However over the years I keep seeing stupid mistakes get put in, and a lack of respect for community feedback. This thread is about one gun, but for me it's that final straw I can't stand for anymore.

For hotfix 19.5.3's thread there's a post pointing out the mutagen cost that got 454 upvotes and still the mistake is deflected. This is ridiculous, stop being children and listen to people once in awhile.

Also, to make sure that veteran players can't fund the research immediately is not a valid reason for astronomical requirements. There are new clans being made often, with fresh players that don't have a thousand mutagen samples, let alone five thousand, at their disposal.

If it hurts veteran resource stocks, then imagine how it impacts the younger playerbase? Warframe's already unfriendly enough to newbs without research getting into the "Maybe we'll afford it next year" costs.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Sennera

[ThePredicament]

It feels more like a "crap, we actually don't have a proper solution to this" then a straight up "f you guys" response.

Can't really fault him since it's a hard situation, a lot of people DID farm for the samples, a lot of people didn't, a lot of people have big clans with big requirements, some don't. There's a lot to balance in this situation since it's actually not even in the same scale as the oxium requirements for the Zephyr research, this is absolutely astronomical.

But there needs to be some change in both how they look at clans, there are different sizes, not just in terms of tiers, with much different play expectations, and how unreasonable this resource cost was.

[ograzzt]

I like how "they earned it, so it's unfair to change it now" argument can be applied only when it's convenient for DE. They have taken away our stratos emblems for recent conclave tactical alerts (yet many players only played these alerts because of these emblems), they changed riven mods disposition twice (yet a lot of people payed tons of plat or kuva for these mods). It wasn't a problem for DE.

But with Hema - no, how could we change it, people earned it. Then just reward them with some additional skin, noggle, dojo trophy, something, then reduce research cost and increase mutagen samples droprate.