HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Volinus7]

26 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I know you like to make this argument over and over, but it's not relevant to my comment and you're taking it out of context.

My point was that if DE want to make a change they feel is good for the game (however 'good' is defined), then they should just do it.

DE feeling that their creative freedom is restricted because some players will be upset is not good for anyone, game design decisions should be made without considering player 'investment' because ultimately all players want the game to be successful and have a long life.

If DE feel they have to give 'compensation' of some sort (like with the current proposed weapon nerfs) then fine, whatever; but they should never hold back from making changes that they feel will benefit the game overall.

There will always be upset players. There's nothing you can do about it.

They showed zero compensation nerfs countless times, you worry that suddenly their attitude changed?

Meh... Compensation is just a part of PR stuffs to calm angered players it has nothing to do with freedom restriction or DE feeling bad.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Volinus7

[Ditto132]

4 hours ago, Loswaith said:

If this was the case, would it not actually be just as easy to get the research materials as it is for smaller clans.  The issue is that you don't have more of those 'helping hands' in larger clans, you actually have relatively fewer hands providing help.

As long as the clan maintain ~10% or more active members to break even, it would still be better than smaller clans. (Note: 10% of Ghost = solo Ghost)
As higher tier contain more members and with higher resource cost, and being harder to maintain similar active ratio compared to lower tier, I proposed the following:

On 16/03/2017 at 6:43 AM, Ditto132 said:

The duration reduction was sort of a secondary bonus. The primary part I was proposing was the slight "discounted" resource cost for larger clan, so that it encourage up-sizing clan instead of down-sizing to exploit the benefit of being a Ghost clan. Preventing unhealthy behaviours such as kicking inactive/non-contributing members and allowing some buffer to keep less active members/friends while maintaining the clan tier. I mean people up-sized clan for some reasons, right.

This is the newer table that I refined abit more (too much refining takes up too much time, not to mention if DE even bother looking at it):

one tier below(full) show the cost per members when a fully active clan upgraded tier.
10% and 100% active clan columns show the cost per active members.
% required to be break even with Ghost show how much percentage the clan have to be active in order to be equal to a solo Ghost clan.

For example:
A solo Ghost clan cost is 10, taking the full cost instead of 1 per members for a 100% active full Ghost clan.
A Shadow clan need to be ~9% active(10% active = 3 members) in order to be similar to a solo Ghost clan. Each of the 3 members contributing 10, to cover the cost of 27 with 3 left over. Or the 3 members contributing 9 each.

As you can see, Moon clan require ~7% active to break even. Personally, I feel maintaining a 10% active or more is reasonable enough.
Not to mention that each tier upgrade is ~3x of previous tier, which mean that when you upgrade, you would already got ~30-33% members in the clan.
Given that you might upgrade to higher tier without the clan being fully active, let say 30% active before you upgrade. Upgrading with any lower % active doesn't make sense.
After upgrading tier, it would become ~10% active, which my proposed cost would seem to be still reasonable with slight benefit from the discount.
 

4 hours ago, Loswaith said:

The key is not so much to exclude larger clans from research goals (which is what high costs tend to do), but let them trade increased time for fewer resources.  Fewer materials to start research but the research taking more time because of those fewer materials. Add to that the ability to have research take less time with the more resources donated by the clan itself (so representation of more "helping hands" working for the research).

The major benefit of larger clans is having more like minded people to easily call on to play with.

I did consider trading research time with research cost before, but it can be exploited and not as scalable and tweaked. And doesn't work very well with time-gate that DE might want to enforce. (e.g. one man doing the research in a Moon clan, it may take a long time, but doesn't matter as long the research can be completed. This also promote leechers to some extend)

Edited March 24, 2017 by Ditto132
Formatting

[DoomFruit]

Another patch, and still the cost has not been addressed.

[takeshiblue]

nothing will change if you just accept whats going on

[Xenoxiaprime]

what a @(*()$ epic video :D

[-Temp0-]

On 24.03.2017 at 0:38 PM, Leahzar said:

DE has made it clear that they will NOT be changing the amount of mutagen needed for the Hema, BUT they are aware that they overdid it a bit with it, so they will not do something similar in the future. 
I'll repeat, DE WILL NOT CHANGE IT, because Steve said it would be totally unfair to change it now after so many has already invested a lot of time into farming the mutagen needed for the Hema. 
 

Nothing prevents those *** from increasing the mutagen drop at least.

It seems it went even down at some point, ~80 with both Nekros and Hydroid + yellow booster for 20-30 waves of ODD. Haven't seen a worse approach in games in my life tbh, "overdid it a little" doesn't even begin to describe it.

[skittles105]

I've spent time and money on this game, was a founder early on and have bought into a few prime access packs.  I know, it's trivial, but the Hema issue made me quit.  DE's responses have been a smug "our bad" at best.  The in game effort required vs the plat cost for the item was irritating.  Our shadow clan is down to a few active members who called me in to have a look at the most recent update.  I'll look, but it looks like our scrappy devs who struggled to bring us a unique new game are turning into what they were fighting in the early days.

[Ikusias]

Cosnidering DE Steve concept of fairness, i'd like very much to be refunded for the nerf on nidus: i had it at full performance for less than 24h

[Doc-Orange]

Good to see this thread still - alive. In the meantimes I calmed down but not in a positive way. I still play the game but lost respect. I was a huge fan and now I#m only a player. When you loose emotion this is a sign for loosing love.

To DESteves argument that they will change it because of the Clans which spent the effort to farm. Now we can see what is the truth. Thats in fact not an argument for DE. Or how will they explain the massive nerfs an Simulor ans Tonkor...?

[Volinus7]

1 hour ago, Doc-Orange said:

Good to see this thread still - alive. In the meantimes I calmed down but not in a positive way. I still play the game but lost respect. I was a huge fan and now I#m only a player. When you loose emotion this is a sign for loosing love.

To DESteves argument that they will change it because of the Clans which spent the effort to farm. Now we can see what is the truth. Thats in fact not an argument for DE. Or how will they explain the massive nerfs an Simulor ans Tonkor...?

Strong items are cheap baits for players waiting to be nerfed then introduce new baits using the same strategy. 

[SkadiNyx]

41 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Strong items are cheap baits for players waiting to be nerfed then introduce new baits using the same strategy. 

Yeah, but what about the players who farmed for those items ? 
Why is it okay to nerf/change Frames/weapons no matter how much effort players spent into it ( For example, people choosing syndicates especially to get the Synoid Simulor, or people spending time and ressources to forma the Tonkor ), but at the same time not okay to lower the cost of the Hema because some Clans researched it with the actual ( Stupid ) cost ? 

[Volinus7]

37 minutes ago, SkadiNyx said:

Yeah, but what about the players who farmed for those items ? 
Why is it okay to nerf/change Frames/weapons no matter how much effort players spent into it ( For example, people choosing syndicates especially to get the Synoid Simulor, or people spending time and ressources to forma the Tonkor ), but at the same time not okay to lower the cost of the Hema because some Clans researched it with the actual ( Stupid ) cost ? 

"Hypocrisy" that's why.

Also they think the nerf affects everyone equally so it's fair? In a game without balance, there's no way people who don't like the changes from balancing can give legit reasons against it anyway. No one knows how many threads got silenced and deleted, no evidence.

Another reason... This game is not democratic. (probably there're lobbyists too lol)

Edited March 27, 2017 by Volinus7

[ChuckMaverick]

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the amount of clan affinity you get for researching the Hema is 10k, compared to the usual 3k for clan weapon research.

It's interesting to note that the affinity value doesn't come close to a level that would reflect the effort involved in the research, or the Hema would be worth more like 200k clan affinity, further demonstrating just how crazy and totally abnormal the Hema research costs are.

[Volinus7]

Reddit at its best again.

[Liminal]

On 3/23/2017 at 2:27 PM, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

It's a free game. Let them be. I'd understand if you payed for the game, then it should be low, but you payed nothing for it. It's all free. You just gotta take the initiative. 

Free to play and free are not synonyms. F2P is a system designed to make money, it's not charity. We don't owe them a thing.

And I spent almost 800 bucks on this, but I only pay when I feel they are fair to the consumer, not when they pull crap like this. For the record I haven't spent a dime since the Hema came out.

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

Just now, The_Doc said:

Free to play and free are not synonyms. F2P is a system designed to make money, it's not charity. We don't owe them a thing.

And I spent almost 800 bucks on this, but I only pay when I feel they are fair to the consumer, not when they pull crap like this. For the record I haven't spent a dime since the Hema came out.

Yeah, your first problem is even paying money for this.

Just because you paid money on a free game, that does not entitle you to get a lower sample count on the Hema.

It's a fair set amount, people just need to put in the effort. Don't complain about something that is so high when you haven't tried it. 

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

On 3/23/2017 at 10:24 AM, Flirk2 said:

You need to ''put in the effort'' while playing a video game.

Yeah, you do. Did you download a video game expect it to be a cakewalk? 

Did you play Dark Souls and expect it to be easy? 

No. You didn't. You need to put in effort to accomplish something. You aren't 5 anymore. Stuff isn't handed to you.

[Liminal]

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

Yeah, your first problem is even paying money for this.

Just because you paid money on a free game, that does not entitle you to get a lower sample count on the Hema.

It's a fair set amount, people just need to put in the effort. Don't complain about something that is so high when you haven't tried it. 

And I didn't say it did. I said I spend money when I feel they are fair to the playerbase, and that the game is not free, as you claimed.

Also, repeating "stop complaining and do it" over and over is completely useless as it doesn't address a single argument raised in this thread.

[ChuckMaverick]

13 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

Don't complain about something that is so high when you haven't tried it.

I have tried it. I completed the research solo for my ghost clan.

I'm still going to complain about it because the research costs are too high.

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

2 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

And I didn't say it did. I said I spend money when I feel they are fair to the playerbase, and that the game is not free, as you claimed.

Also, repeating "stop complaining and do it" over and over is completely useless as it doesn't address a single argument raised in this thread.

The game is free, is it not?

You didn't pay a single dime to download this game. It doesn't cost anything. You didn't have to buy plat to get any weapons. You didn't have to blow hundreds of dollars on a free game. 

You can beat the entire game without paying a dime. There is nothing restricted behind a monetary value, besides cosmetics (and those don't help!"). DE has always been fair to the playerbase. 

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

1 minute ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I have tried it. I completed the research solo for my ghost clan.

I'm still going to complain about it because the research costs are too high.

But you completed it. It isn't too high. People exaggerate way too much. 

[ChuckMaverick]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

But you completed it. It isn't too high. People exaggerate way too much. 

Being able to complete it doesn't mean that it isn't too high.

I ran with both boosters and a loot frame (Nekros) and it was still too much effort to be considered 'fun', as games should be.

[Liminal]

6 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

The game is free, is it not?

You didn't pay a single dime to download this game. It doesn't cost anything. You didn't have to buy plat to get any weapons. You didn't have to blow hundreds of dollars on a free game. 

You can beat the entire game without paying a dime. There is nothing restricted behind a monetary value, besides cosmetics (and those don't help!"). DE has always been fair to the playerbase. 

Again, F2P is a system designed to make profit, free is free. Warframe is not free, just because you and many others never spent money on it doesn't mean it's free.
It may be free for you, but Warframe is a product developed to make money.
It's not a gift, it's not charity and it's not a handout. You may think you're taking advantage of WF because you never spent a dime, but "freeloaders" are a calculated expense that help keep a game alive and/or grow.

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

Just now, The_Doc said:

Again, F2P is a system designed to make profit, free is free. Warframe is not free, just because you and many others never spent money on it doesn't mean it's free.
It may be free for you, but Warframe is a product developed to make money.
It's not a gift, it's not charity and it's not a handout. You may think you're taking advantage of WF because you never spent a dime, but "freeloaders" are a calculated expense that help keep a game alive and/or grow.

It was designed to make a profit, of course, you are right in that aspect.

But it is free. You don't seem to understand. There is no game content locked behind a certain amount of money, you didn't pay 60$ for this game. 

You paid nothing to get the game. You chose to unintelligent decision to sink money in this game. I can't blame you though.

How is it not free? Because there are things you can purchase like cosmetics that don't make a difference? No, its free to play. You don't have to pay a dime to beat the game, or do anything after that.

[ChuckMaverick]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

You paid nothing to get the game. You chose to unintelligent decision to sink money in this game. I can't blame you though.

There is nothing 'unintelligent' about financially supporting the game, without some players spending money, no one would be able to play as the game wouldn't exist.

Edited March 27, 2017 by ChuckMaverick