How the Grineer Helminth Charger makes sense lore wise.

[ObviousLee]

Hi there! Resident Lore-Hound Lee reporting to inform you all of why the Helminth Charger being a Grineer is A-OK, based on the lore.

See, the infestation doesn't work the way you think it works, or at least how a lot of people present their understanding of the infestation in these threads. Allow me to lift the veil.

The infestation, irregardless of distance, is connected via a hive mind. This hive mind, is capable of transmitting and receiving genetic information over great distances. The infestation is also capable of incorporating new genetic information to create entities on a mass scale, regardless of initial location of the new source of information.

Here, lemme give you an example.

Lets say a Comba(unit currently existing without any infested variant.) were infested on jupiter during an outbreak. We're speaking lore wise, not game mechanics here, so lets keep that in mind while reading this. That comba's infested form, as it's new information, is now incorporated within the hive mind. New, useful information has been effectively added to the infestations arsenal, and then could be implemented on say, mars in a future outbreak.

What this means, is that if some new, beneficial information is assimilated into the infestations hive mind "database", it can be deployed to any other location that the infestation presently is located as the infested units act as roaming hubs for information to be passed along. Think of it as a solar system spanning neural network(horrifying, isn't it?).

Evidence of this is present in the Ancient Healer codex entry via multiple infested ancient healers being created off of one unlucky lorist, as well as Patient Zero quest line in which Alad V augmented the infestation and resulted in the Mutalist Strain(as seen in the Jordas Verdict/Precept) which gave rise to the infested osprey and moas. So, what we can see from this is that the infestation incorporates information via genetic material that it finds useful and then is capable of using that new information as a form of blueprint for a unit to be constructed in real time at another location, as seen by boilers.

The infested ancients originated on the derelict, yet are observable across the entire solar system. The same can be said for the mutalist strain which originated on Eris via Alad V's experimentation on the infestation with the mutalist moa's and osprey units.

Now onto Nidus and the cyst. Nidus, being a master of a singular strain of the infestation(Helminth) goes out on missions and....well....kinda kills stuff with the infestation. These kills can be considered collection of raw genetic data that he is able to transmit to other warframes, as well as filter into a kubrow egg. Now, we know that the infestation works by overriding currently existing genetic code and by warping existing material, be it organic or not, with its own set of genetics. Kubrow eggs are, as most other eggs, holders of raw genetic material that is a baseline for the species. Injecting the material from the cyst into the egg overrides the preexisting genetic information with that of a charger. The information for said charger can be validated by a single grineer kill.

Also consider this: When you gain a kubrow egg, it comes from a feral kubrow. Ferals look almost nothing like our common breeds that we obtain from the incubator due to the fact that we override the ferals DNA structure with that of a breed from a long gone era, hence the DNA degradation. We already are performing controlled genetic mutation and adaptation through the form of breeding and DNA templates for patterns and the like. Meaning it's no stretch to say that adding the cyst's information to the mix is simply another form of genetic manipulation, only from a different source than the Orokin who had created/domesticated the species.

I hope this clears things up for you as to how it makes sense for the Helminth Charger to exist.

Edited 28 minutes ago by ObviousLee

[Larred]

this is impressive, good job

[ObviousLee]

Just now, Larred said:

this is impressive, good job

why thank you. i do try to pass along information as i understand it, especially in situations like the current "i hate the charger it makes no sense" fiasco plaguing the forums and game chats.

[AM-Bunny]

If this was true, why would Infestation ever choose to produce a 'lesser' unit? Just make everything Lephantis.

Why does Mutalist Alad V still resemble Alad V and why does Jordas Golem still resemble a ship? Shouldn't they also have Grineer-like growths?

I do like the thought though - it reminds me of the Aragami from God Eater, which always struck me as one of the most intriguing Infested-like antagonists I've seen.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

The lore both supports and rejects that.

The fragments lore does say that the Infestation uses whatever it consumes and transforms it to an unit with characteristics that will let it survive (if it works, it keeps using it, if it works it becomes the standard), however the same lore kinda of rejects that the infestation creates carbon copies, by adding that some times we can still see the remains of the victim, this is, parts that weren't fully transformed (it doesn't create those parts, it simple leaves them behind, much like how the Chargers still have the Grineer head and even limbs that do nothing at all).

 

I'd say that rather than the Helminth charger being possible lorewise, the infestation as a faction just lacks units, generic units, to fill the gaps in this lore. For example, have a generic charger that doesn't have grineer features but has the same exact stats/attacks (and has the same body features, just no Grineer head and armour), which would show up in non grineer locations, then the current charger would appear in Grineer locations, as it displays remains of Grineer soldiers.

 

 

Another thing to consider is that Helminth isn't part of the "regular" infestation, so it would have a different "database".

Edited January 4, 2017 by God_is_a_Cat_Girl

[NeithanDiniem]

4 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

If this was true, why would Infestation ever choose to produce a 'lesser' unit? Just make everything Lephantis.

Why does Mutalist Alad V still resemble Alad V and why does Jordas Golem still resemble a ship? Shouldn't they also have Grineer-like growths?

I do like the thought though - it reminds me of the Aragami from God Eater, which always struck me as one of the most intriguing Infested-like antagonists I've seen.

Lephantis is a huge amount of organic material, for one, and is ancient. The older the infested is, the more adapted it has become. Likely the infestation just doesn't have that large of an amount of material in a place where a giant, slow, hulking unit would be necessary.

Also, they wouldn't have Grineer-like growth is such growths were unnecessary. They had material on had to utilize, preexisting "hardware" as it were to use and not need to grow from scratch.

Edited January 4, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[AM-Bunny]

Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

Lephantis is a huge amount of organic material, for one, and is ancient. The older the infested is, the more adapted it has become. Likely the infestation just doesn't have that large of an amount of material in a place where a giant, slow, hulking unit would be necessary.

Why would age matter to a hivemind collective though? Theoretically every single Infested should be just as 'adapted' as the oldest one.

Infestation seems to have no problems growing additional organic material, but I will accept that perhaps it takes time to grow as large as Lephantis.

[NeithanDiniem]

Just now, AM-Bunny said:

Why would age matter to a hivemind collective though? Theoretically every single Infested should be just as 'adapted' as the oldest one.

Infestation seems to have no problems growing additional organic material, but I will accept that perhaps it takes time to grow as large as Lephantis.

Adaptation is to the current environment, not in general. Lephantis is adapted to its environment, having used all the material it was provided over the years as things invaded the ship on top of the self replication it did on its own. That doesnt mean it would be suitable just anywhere, the size of it alone being a huge limiter where it could develop.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

10 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

Why would age matter to a hivemind collective though? Theoretically every single Infested should be just as 'adapted' as the oldest one.

Infestation seems to have no problems growing additional organic material, but I will accept that perhaps it takes time to grow as large as Lephantis.

I'd guess that while the Infestation can consume and mutate matter it perhaps can't create the basis from which it can make new units from. Like, without a moa it can't create the basis to make a Mutalist Moa, so instead it will create something else with what is present (but yeah, the game doesn't reflect that because like I said in my previous post and I actually wish for, Infestation lacks units, and lacks generic units, so moas and grineer based infested will appear anywhere). Lephantis basis was either an infested unit created by the Orokin or some other creature that the Orokin created but that got Infested (Lotus says that Lephantis was created to fight in the old war, and TWW does show us creatures that the Orokin created), so if there's no more of what initially was Lephantis, the infestation can't just create more, but rather, the Infestation added what it saw fit to Lephantis for it to survive with all that it consumed over the years.

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by God_is_a_Cat_Girl

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

I'd guess that while the Infestation can consume and mutate matter it perhaps can't create the basis from which it can make new units from. Like, without a moa it can't create the basis to make a Mutalist Moa, so instead it will create something else with what is present (but yeah, the game doesn't reflect that because like I said in my previous post and I actually wish for, Infestation lacks units, and lacks generic units, so moas and grineer based infested will appear anywhere). Lephantis basis was either an infested unit created by the Orokin or some other creature that the Orokin created but that got Infested (Lotus says that Lephantis was created to fight in the old war, and TWW does show us creatures that the Orokin created), so if there's no more of what initially was Lephantis, the infestation can't just create more, but rather, the Infestation added what it saw fit to Lephantis for it to survive with all that it consumed over the years.

 

If they need moas to make infested moas, it doesn't make sense that these infested moas appear in places where the moas would not be present. Same as for Ancients, which were infested Orokin. It also doesn't work with how the boiler works, shooting out a small blip of infested goop which develops into a pod, and from which a unit appears without having a corpse to infest to start with.

Lephantis's heads each share similarities with Corpus, Grineer, and Ancients (Orokin) in design, and the game description explains this as it having incorporating genetic material into itself over and over over the time its been loose in the ship.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Like I said:

 

7 minutes ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

(but yeah, the game doesn't reflect that because like I said in my previous post and I actually wish for, Infestation lacks units, and lacks generic units, so moas and grineer based infested will appear anywhere)

To also note that gameplay many times doesn't reflect lore, gameplay goes beyond lore and logic as it's purpose isn't to be realistic but to be entertaining.

[AM-Bunny]

12 minutes ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

I'd guess that while the Infestation can consume and mutate matter it perhaps can't create the basis from which it can make new units from. Like, without a moa it can't create the basis to make a Mutalist Moa, so instead it will create something else with what is present

Isn't that precisely what this thread is arguing against though? Basically OP is suggesting that Infestation is producing a Grineer Charger with no base of a Grineer Lancer.

[ObviousLee]

21 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

If this was true, why would Infestation ever choose to produce a 'lesser' unit? Just make everything Lephantis.

Why does Mutalist Alad V still resemble Alad V and why does Jordas Golem still resemble a ship? Shouldn't they also have Grineer-like growths?

I do like the thought though - it reminds me of the Aragami from God Eater, which always struck me as one of the most intriguing Infested-like antagonists I've seen.

The reason why the infestation wouldn't simply make an army of Lephantis is because of the amount of material needed to create something that large. Also note that Lephantis was created during the Orokin Empire era as a weapon to combat the sentients. So it's been around for a very very long while. So, since it would theoretically take a large amount of time to create a singular unit of immense mass, it would be far more effective to create lesser, specialized units that could be made quicker, and accomplish the same task without the immense cost of a bulk unit. 

We cured Alad of the infestation. Remember that Alad was being used by the infestation as a means to an end of self enhancement. The hive mind affected Alad, but didn't fully incorporate him as we managed to cure him in time.

24 minutes ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

The lore both supports and rejects that.

The fragments lore does say that the Infestation uses whatever it consumes and transforms it to an unit with characteristics that will let it survive (if it works, it keeps using it, if it works it becomes the standard), however the same lore kinda of rejects that the infestation creates carbon copies, by adding that some times we can still see the remains of the victim, this is, parts that weren't fully transformed (it doesn't create those parts, it simple leaves them behind, much like how the Chargers still have the Grineer head and even limbs that do nothing at all).

 

I'd say that rather than the Helminth charger being possible lorewise, the infestation as a faction just lacks units, generic units, to fill the gaps in this lore. For example, have a generic charger that doesn't have grineer features but has the same exact stats/attacks (and has the same body features, just no Grineer head and armour), which would show up in non grineer locations, then the current charger would appear in Grineer locations, as it displays remains of Grineer soldiers.

 

 

Another thing to consider is that Helminth isn't part of the "regular" infestation, so it would have a different "database".

Consider this: everything on an infested unit is dangerous. They're walking biohazards with murder urge issues. even apparently vestigial limbs such as the grineer head on chargers, has a use for offense. If you observe the Helminth charger codex entry, you can see it dragging what appears to be a Myconian by its leg, using the Grineer head and neck as mandibles. 

So, since we're lacking in infested united, we have to interpret everything that currently exists within the infestation as "all there ever was" with the exception of new units that have been implemented through quests, and events. Essentially, the current roster of units is all that presently exists within the arsenal of the infestation.

also, see where i mentioned that a single Grineer kill with Nidus Validates the infested charger being the initial template.

[AerinSol]

And as per what the OP has tried to keep with his lore-only-ignore-gameplay discussion, Lephantis with all the information we have is only one unit of him exists. Just like every other boss in the system. There is only variations depending on DE's very poor implementation of events crossing with lore.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

11 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

Isn't that precisely what this thread is arguing against though? Basically OP is suggesting that Infestation is producing a Grineer Charger with no base of a Grineer Lancer.

Yeah, and I'm not really in favour of that either, because the fragments lore kinda of goes against that as well, plus, Infestation creating anything and everything would just make it too good.

 

Honestly I don't think that DE really bothered with Lore for Helminth Charger, they just went, people want a Charger we give them a Charger, we don't need to do a new model after all. Much like how the gameplay doesn't reflect lore and Ancients, which are supposed to be "Ancient", spawn kinda of too often actually, for a specialized unit the game spawns too many of those (but then again it spawns too many bombards as well, I don't mind heavy units being strong, they just need to be less common to match their strength).

 

Because then you do make a good point, why waste matter in lesser units if it can just make better units? Why bother with crawlers? Why even have vestigial matter being useless or have very limited uses instead of making a new limb that it's actually useful? Why would it create, from scratch and without basis, units that aren't visually fully infested? Sure, gameplay demands it, but then shouldn't we make the lore be less omnipotent to make the gameplay feel not as wrong?

Edited January 4, 2017 by God_is_a_Cat_Girl

[NeithanDiniem]

2 minutes ago, AerinSol said:

And as per what the OP has tried to keep with his lore-only-ignore-gameplay discussion, Lephantis with all the information we have is only one unit of him exists. Just like every other boss in the system. There is only variations depending on DE's very poor implementation of events crossing with lore.

Yes, because by the canon lore of the game we are only killing a boss once. Repeat killings is purely gameplay unless DE incorporates a way to explain how the individual survived the encounter. Alad V has an explination via the trailers, Vay Hek through the way his assassination ends, Vor through trailers and dialog.

[Bug24]

The infestation uses genetic templates to assimilate unknown lifeforms into the hive mind. Alad V is one of a kind, but genetic templates doesn't refer specifically to a species, but the ability of a genetic mass to latch onto an organism or even a resource for that matter and start developing proteins.

Plasmids (in real life) are used in conjunction with technology like recombinant DNA to change a few select cells' instructions. Take biosynthetic insulin producing cells, like that of a normal pancreas, injected via a bacterium with genetically modified traits, and compare it to the genetic engineering taking place in Orokin society. The only difference is the object of the synthesis. Instead of insulin, you're creating a mass of viral cells, working together using the host's brain as a surrogate.

The objectivist idea of "we" is very prevalent within the Infested hive mind. Figuring the usage of Iron, Calcium, and other metals as required minerals to sustain human life, it seems feasible that the Orokin could genetically engineer an organism like a tardigrade (great video about these here) that metabolizes substrates slowly enough that it need only consume itself in extreme cases. A hive of these things, working as one consciousness definitely mimics the behavior of Infested matter.

This also can be an explanation of the Warframe's ability to regenerate shields. Using the proteins and waste provided by inner cells, it regenerates a thin layer of matter ( most likely consisting of organic metals ) that protects the more vital cells, which perpetuates a connection of Transference. 

If you read this entire thing, thank you. I had to bust out my old biology notes from my Sophomore year of high school in order to recall some of this.

But that's just a theory... A GAME THEORY :D

Thanks for reading.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Bug24
made more readable

[ObviousLee]

3 minutes ago, Bug24 said:

The infestation uses genetic templates to assimilate unknown lifeforms into the hive mind. Alad V is one of a kind, but genetic templates doesn't refer specifically to a species, but the ability of a genetic mass to latch onto an organism or even a resource for that matter and start developing proteins. Plasmids (in real life) are used in conjunction with technology like recombinant DNA to change a few select cells' instructions. Take biosynthetic insulin producing cells, like that of a normal pancreas, injected via a bacterium with genetically modified traits, and compare it to the genetic engineering taking place in Orokin society. The only difference is the object of the synthesis. Instead of insulin, you're creating a mass of viral cells, working together using the host's brain as a surrogate. The objectivist idea of "we" is very prevalent within the Infested hive mind. Figuring the usage of Iron, Calcium, and other metals as required minerals to sustain human life, it seems feasible that the Orokin could genetically engineer an organism like a tardigrade (great video about these here) that metabolizes substrates slowly enough that it need only consume itself in extreme cases. A hive of these things, working as one consciousness definitely mimics the behavior of Infested matter. This also can be an explanation of the Warframe's ability to regenerate shields. Using the proteins and waste provided by inner cells, it regenerates a thin layer of matter ( most likely consisting of organic metals ) that protects the more vital cells, which allow a connection of Transference. 

If you read this entire thing, thank you. I had to bust out my old biology notes from my Sophomore year of high school in order to recall some of this.

But that's just a theory... A GAME THEORY :D

Thanks for reading.

very interesting read. Thank you for your contribution to this thread, as it was not only supportive to my theory, but informative as well.

you get two cookies, good sir.

[JudgeXion]

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

Think of it as a solar system spanning neural network(horrifying, isn't it?).

Infested Skynet :O

[ObviousLee]

Just now, JudgeXion said:

Infested Skynet :O

essentially yes, with the exception of the intent behind the murder. The infested essentially wants to incorporate everything into itself instead of wiping everything out.

[Bug24]

1 minute ago, JudgeXion said:

Infested Skynet :O

YES. ALL THE YES.

 

7 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

very interesting read. Thank you for your contribution to this thread, as it was not only supportive to my theory, but informative as well.

you get two cookies, good sir.

Thank you :D

[NinthAria]

As some of the Cephalon fragment entries point out, the Infestation transforms victims based on survival needs; resemblance to the host is kind of a sometimes-yes-sometimes-no type deal. So I can't say the whole Helminth Charger thing bugs me too much from a lore standpoint.

That all said, considering the state of the Helminth Charger from other angles--the typos and pictures of kubrows on their ability mods, the fact that they make kubrow noises, the bizarre animation rigging, etc.--I'd guess that the real reason it looks the way it does is because Glast Gambit launched right before the holidays and they didn't have enough time to give it the polish it needed. So while I don't think it breaks anything lore-wise, I'd still bet money on it changing.

[ObviousLee]

Just now, NinthAria said:

As some of the Cephalon fragment entries point out, the Infestation transforms victims based on survival needs; resemblance to the host is kind of a sometimes-yes-sometimes-no type deal. So I can't say the whole Helminth Charger thing bugs me too much from a lore standpoint.

That all said, considering the state of the Helminth Charger from other angles--the typos and pictures of kubrows on their ability mods, the fact that they make kubrow noises, the bizarre animation rigging, etc.--I'd guess that the real reason it looks the way it does is because Glast Gambit launched right before the holidays and they didn't have enough time to give it the polish it needed. So while I don't think it breaks anything lore-wise, I'd still bet money on it changing.

that would be something one could not argue, provided we were taking current non-fleshed out systems into account.

However, one need only look at the initial patch loading screen prior to login and after launching the game, which features Nidus, the quest girl Myconian, and the infested charger, DE told us we were getting a charger pet, before telling us we got a charger pet. The current rigging, skeleton, mods and noises are going to be adjusted to more lore fitting settings in the near future, based off steve's tweets.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

10 minutes ago, NinthAria said:

As some of the Cephalon fragment entries point out, the Infestation transforms victims based on survival needs; resemblance to the host is kind of a sometimes-yes-sometimes-no type deal. So I can't say the whole Helminth Charger thing bugs me too much from a lore standpoint.

That all said, considering the state of the Helminth Charger from other angles--the typos and pictures of kubrows on their ability mods, the fact that they make kubrow noises, the bizarre animation rigging, etc.--I'd guess that the real reason it looks the way it does is because Glast Gambit launched right before the holidays and they didn't have enough time to give it the polish it needed. So while I don't think it breaks anything lore-wise, I'd still bet money on it changing.

The Kubrow noises actually feels like the aberrations that we made when Kavats launched, in the ship you see the aberration (or hear Kubrow noises from Chargers), but in mission they are regular pets (charger makes infested noises in missions).

[ObviousLee]

Just now, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

The Kubrow noises actually feels like the aberrations that we made when Kavats launched, in the ship you see the aberration (or hear Kubrow noises from Chargers), but in mission they are regular pets (charger makes infested noises in missions).

so suffice it to say, still not fully fleshed out system yet.