Nidus really needs to get reworked

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

12 minutes ago, Angrados said:

The wonderful thing about logic is that it applies to all things, including, well, the subject matter at hand. If you see it as wrong, there's a difference between "I see this as wrong and here's why" and "People are so dumb for believing X and my viewpoint is superior". 

I think you just got done arguing that the majority of people use Nidus because apparently he's cheesy, and now you're appealing to the majority? Suddenly your opinion is popular? Sir, I don't think that sort of vacillation is gonna work.

Let me track down my original post... 

I've already tried to do this once and it deleted my progress, so I will merely point you to page 6 to find the following post, halfway down:

Now, help me out here--where did I imply that all of the other frames needed to be buffed? I said here that Nidus was unique in his mechanic, which is why a lot of people are using him. Nowhere did I say, or even imply, that other frames need to adopt his playstyle/powerset/whatever you're going for here. If that's what you read out of it... well, that's your interpretation of my words. I can't really control that, and if you really think I'm out to buff all of the other warframes because powercreep, I'm not going to be able to change your mind. 

While I commend you for trying to teach these people about logic and fallacies, I can't help but thick of the famous quote often attributed to Einstein:

Quote

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Perhaps it would be best to leave them to their uninformed ways, since they consistantly resist your attempts to educate them?

Edited January 7, 2017 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[Angrados]

1 minute ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

While I commend you for trying to teach these people about logic and fallacies, I can't help but think of the famous quote often attributed to Einstein:

Perhaps it would be best to leave them to their uninformed ways, since they consistantly resist your attempts to educate them?

Well, I think we're all just a touch crazy at heart XD Though I do recognize the wisdom of your advice. I'll tone it down a bit.

[Eldnacpeek]

8 hours ago, Zeclem said:

forums really need to make up its mind. one thread its all about how strong we are, another thread is how broken scaling gets.

 

People have differing opinions, you can't expect the forums to have just one.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

1 minute ago, Angrados said:

Well, I think we're all just a touch crazy at heart XD Though I do recognize the wisdom of your advice. I'll tone it down a bit.

The biggest problem with them in this thread is that they are all on the same side. Whenever I find a thread with such posters on both sides, I simple pop some popcorn and set f5 on a macro.

That said, I can see one fair point to what they say: Nidus is a little overplayed, to the point that, if I am playing as Nidus, and for some strange reason I am on public instead of solo, I tend to leave the match if I see another Nidus.

[Angrados]

Just now, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The biggest problem with them in this thread is that they are all on the same side. Whenever I find a thread with such posters on both sides, I simple pop some popcorn and set f5 on a macro.

That said, I can see one fair point to what they say: Nidus is a little overplayed, to the point that, if I am playing as Nidus, and for some strange reason I am on public instead of solo, I tend to leave the match if I see another Nidus.

I attribute his sudden popularity to the fact that the approach to his energy/stack powerset is novel and encourages that sort of usage of all four abilities, which I personally (and I would argue many others) find really engaging. Nidus doesn't really have any powers that you don't use, and the visual effect that he has is also a lot of fun. He feels fresh, different from the rest of the Warframes out there due to the mechanics he utilizes, and I think a lot of people find that interesting/attractive. I'd expect that he won't stick around in the more high-end market as people will find that he really isn't all that good at high tiers (imo, again) and most who play him will just be looking to have fun. I expect that when Bardframe comes out that will change somewhat, but the Devs are gonna have a deuce of a time following up Nidus after how well they did with it (imo). 

That said, I do understand the complaint. I do see Nidus pretty much everywhere nowadays, and I'm seriously considering maining him now that I have all of the Warframes under my command (which took me long enough to do). I dunno, though, that may change with the new system they talked about implementing in the devstream. I dunno, though, it's hard to say. I haven't been around that long to know the ups and downs of the community quite yet-- just over a year and counting. I imagine you would have a better idea as to whether his popularity will stick or not 

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

6 hours ago, Knight_Ex said:

I can't be the only person getting sick of seeing 2-3 nidus warframes running in every mission, lets break it down, Nidus is pretty much unkillable, he has insane amounts of damage, even if by some miracle he goes down so long as the person has 10 stacks they are auto revived, he can CC an entire room easily, gain insane amounts of damage reduction with his link, oh are those 10 bombards giving you trouble? just let me link to that corrupted ancient....there we go all better,  Fact of the matter being why run anything else since Nidus does most jobs perfectly, Tanking....check.....Damage....Check (With 100stacks his one can do up to 40k damage per hit and it hits multiple times), Buffing....Check.....Healing......sorta...his 4 can heal but not as effective as a trin, still if the people stay in range its unlikely they will go down.   So please someone come in here and tell me he doesn't need a rework and explain your logic behind it, because its obvious the QA team did barely any work on this one or he was purposely released as an OP frame,  FYI to get 100 stacks takes all but 3 minutes in some missions, his second ability followed with his first.....Id love to know the developers take on this, did rushing him involve throwing all the playtesting out the window for an end of year release?

Nidus's abilities mutate and scale in accordance to how many stacks you have, he's a new frame and at the most a minor nerf to how strong his stacks would seem reasonable but for the most part he's a new frame, his kit has great synergy and doesn't need a rework at all.

[TheGrandWarrior]

Nidus rework.... I can't believe I wasted to much time going through this thread.

Can somebody please close this stupidity.

Thanks bye.

[Salenstormwing]

I was going to talk about how Nidus is one of the most useful, flexible frames in game, and is honestly the first Warframe that does NOT need a rework EVER. But instead, I just found a gif to describe my feelings on the OP's comment.

Being sick of seeing him I can understand. He's the new hotness. But that's not Nidus' fault.

[ensignvidiot]

Nidus is already balanced.

 

He has the worst weakness in the game:

Meta-Warframe Players.

 

In any ground where 2+ room clearing builds are present, Nidus fails horribly. His power, utility, and survival all depends on how quickly you can gain stacks of mutation before everything is killed. 

Tonkors, vauban, ember, excalibro, simulor, anything capable of oneshoting entire mobs will quickly kill their own Nidus teammate. 

 

 

Honestly, I think he is in a good place. He's  been the first frame I've been able to just play as a caster and have fun without worry about my weapons.

 

I honestly wish more warframes were like him

[Fast_98]

Honestly I say wait until the new bard frame comes out. Only then can anyone judge if he popular or nah.

[Dreddeth]

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

sorry im not gonna sugarcoat what i think so your feelings wont get hurt.

I don't think you understand. See, "projection" is when someone attacks a person for flaws which run far, far deeper in their own behavior. "All seems infected that the infected spy, as all looks yellow to the jaundiced eye," as they say.

Basically what I'm saying is that your contributions to this thread have been the least valuable by a thousand "country miles." In fact it's plainly hypocritical and empty.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Dreddeth

[CandyDragon]

9 hours ago, Marine027 said:

He is defintily broken like no other frame is

"nerf him till they get around to perfectly balancing everyone" the post.

Nidus should be a benchmark of interaction between warframe abilities, not something you knee jerk nerf because you babies are concerned that someone might use him and enjoy it. 

 

Have you tried using nidus and trying to ramp him up with a mesa around? Just short of sortie 3, you may as well get comfortable with the idea of using guns, because she will stop any stacking he wants to do.  Have you even tried using him reliably with other frames at the same performance level?  Anyone who has a high damage frame will immediately halt his ability to be useful. And given how the missions work, if Nidus cannot get his mutation going, he is almost always going to feel like dead weight.

 

But sure, he does really well against lower tier content, solo or with pub scrubs who aren't into the power creep meta of the game yet, lacking core builds like their 5 forma  tigris or their soma bullet hose to instantly melt things. Do you feel ivara is unbalanced for being able to perma stealth? Or loki for retaining full speed while cloaked and clearing missiosn without taking any damage? Or inaros who has perfect cc and scalability through his pocket sand, execute with melee combo that also heals him faster than nidus can dream of? Or wukong who can be built to become actually immortal? Or Mag who can wombo combo lanka/detron shots into her magnetize bubble and kill nearly anything regardless of scale. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Nariala

[R34LM]

So sorry he has taking the new seat of spamming Vortex or Desiccate or Sound Quake or Rest or Radial Disarm or Radial Blind or Molecular Prime.....

Your opinion is based on how you react when other people use him and not how YOU use him. You really just want people to stop using him so you can feel good in the team again.

Get used to it. 

[DinendalMinyatur]

12 hours ago, Knight_Ex said:

This is NOT end game scaling, this is lazy unbalanced stats that had not been properly tested, scaling is when you gradually get stronger to adjust for high damage enemies, Nidus with even 10 stacks can drop a level 200 corrupted enemy in 1-2 attacks, some cases 1 attack.

Oh boy, this is the definition of bullS#&$.

Amplified Damage = Base Damage × (1 + Power Strength) × (1 + Number of Stacks) Here is the formula on warframe wikia. So let's see what a %200 power strength Nidus can do

Amplified Damage = 200x (1+1) x (1+10) =4400 puncture damage

Current Health = Base Health × ( 1 + ( Current Level − Base Level )² × 0.015 )  Here is the formula for health scaling. So a corrupted crewman on lvl 200 should have

Current Health = 60x (1+(200-1)² x 0.015) =32,832 hp

Not  to mention he's going to have similiar amounts of shield.

 

Anyway back to topic. A bit of nerf here and there wouldnt really hurt Nidus much. But a rework? No way. If it is going to be like reworks of Mag and Ash definitely no. (They used to be gamebreaking I admit but now especially mag feels dull and clunky to play.)

His passive healing can be toned down a little bit and larva can have a max limit to pull enemies. His undying can be completely removed. It wouldnt hurt him on the high end levels imo

[Pizzarugi]

11 hours ago, Zeclem said:

people actually thinking nidus isnt broken in any way are delusional. and you just suck if you think hes the only relevant frame when it comes to endgame stuff like endurance runs. nidus does literally every job and he excels at them all except healing, which hes only beaten by trin. he still beats the crap out of any other healing frame. he has a ridicilous cc that sets up his also ridicilous and very much free damage. and his ult heals objectives as well, which is a really huge deal.

Nidus can't defend stationary locations quite like Frost and his snowglobe can. The healing on his 4 is paltry in high level missions and the exposure to enemy fire means it's highly unsafe for your teammates to stand on. It's only good for Nidus and the maggots provide a little aggro and CC. If you go to high level defense/excavation missions with the intent of defending the objective, you'd be better served with a frame that has an ability to nullify any incoming ranged attacks while slowing melee enemies who get inside. Even Limbo has more defensive value from his 4 than Nidus does!

His 2 is LoS, short range and can't be recast until after it expires, but it has a tendency of ragdolling an enemy behind a wall which makes it harder to expire than it should. The only way to make any use of his 2 is to go max power range which cuts into the damage potential of his 1 and 4. Even then, you still have to be careful where you cast it if you wanna maximize the grabs. I may be able to pull more enemies, but a Nidus with max power strength is going to outperform me by miles. On top of that, there's tons of other frames with CC that can cover entire large rooms and aren't hindered by LoS such as Nyx's chaos, Rhino's stomp and Loki's irradiated disarm.

His 3 may be able to give him 90% damage resistance, but that's only as effective as whatever enemy he linked himself to. The linked enemy is going to take almost all of that damage and in high level missions, they die in seconds and suddenly you've lost 10 mutation stacks from getting 1shot. You could try and link an eximus, but their aura still buffs their allies and harms you.
 

11 hours ago, Zeclem said:

and dont feed me that "he sucks in finite missions" bullcrap. finite missions are so damn easy that you can take unleveled frames and still finish it without dying, in whatever planets whatever node.

He gets outperformed in non-endless sorties by players using Mirage+SS, Valkyr, Mesa, Ember and Rhino. He gets obliterated in most assassination sorties like Kela De Thaym, because trash mobs have high damage and he barely has time to build stacks. In non-sortie non-endless missions, he does make it easy, but as you've said: Every single frame trivializes non-sortie non-endless missions. This isn't an isolated issue only Nidus is responsible for.

When the majority of people are taking him to trials and sorties and completely wrecking the competition, then you have a point. However, given from what I've seen playing with other Nidus players, he's very hit or miss so chances are people will eventually go back to playing the "endgame meta" frames that do the needed jobs better.
 

11 hours ago, Zeclem said:

some comparing him to inaros. inaros doesnt have half the cc he has, nor the damage potential. inaros has to use a covert lethality to get anywhere near him. and inaros's healing is nothing compared to him. oh and nidus's passive is a straight upgrade to inaros's, making him literally unkillable. i never ran out of stacks after my first use of ult. you simply cant. it gives stacks so damn fast that you have to be an idiot to not keep them up.

For the most part, I agree with this. Nidus does outperform him when it comes to CC and damage on top of his passive safety net (and before someone argues, no, you're not supposed to let yourself get killed because that's punishing your damage potential). The only argument you can make that Inaros has over Nidus is his tankiness. With 4k+ HP and a massive sum of armor plus his 4, his EHP eclipses anything Nidus has. Inaros is a tank, Nidus is a bruiser.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Pizzarugi

[Myscho]

People play with Nidus because its new and see him in every game = nerf/rework, that logic. i can even...

Edited January 7, 2017 by Myscho

[Col_Helghan]

Why is Nidus even being compared to Vauban and Bastille?  I mained Vauban because I wanted to help the team more than I wanted to decimate enemies with my weapons. Even without the augment for Bastille I could effectively lock down ENTIRE maps for god knows how long, with duration and range build you could easily go on any interception mission with score 100 % - 0 %. So talking about apples and orange here really, two very different abilities.

 

Why even "nerf" something that is strictly PvE content? Tell me this, how does someone else playing Nidus affect your gameplay ? Some frames are designed to take on different roles. An infested map ? I see an Ember murdering everyone, do I *@##$ about it because it is "kill-stealing" ? No. I adapt and help the team wherever and however I can and am not bothered by the fact someone is racking up kills faster than me. 

 

Nidus´ tankiness. Here is where his 4th comes into play. I run a full power strength build with negative efficiency and some range, also using Steel Fiber just so I don´t get insta-gibbed by higher lvls. You can rest assured that in either Grineer or Corpus missions you will get obliterated in an instant, in Grineer missions by sheer amount of Slash procs on you, Napalms roasting your measly 1000 HP in 3 seconds and that is even with you standing on your 4th ability. Corpus are no better. A single Tech will melt your HP right away with one shot. No matter the armor, no matter the HP, no matter your HP regeneration. I call bullS#&$ on statement that Nidus is unkillable. You could literally talk about few other frames who fit the description but you don´t.

 

Nidus´ popularity. What did you except ? Nidus is new, and he is quite different from other frames, balanced in every way and his abilities synergize well. You can´t just stand in one single spot and spam 1, if you can, well then, you must have had the right team composition for you to be able to do that. Good for you. Also, when Nekros Prime came out, I saw him in every mission, when Valkyr Prime came out, I saw her in every mission. Do I call for nerfs just because they were in every mission ? No. Why ? Because those who play them either bought them or farmed them for their own satisfaction. OWN SATISFACTION, which is being undermined by OP´s efforts and few others who have no real counter-arguments to any valid answers from other people here and just say " yes I think he should be nerfed ". Then bloody say WHY do you think it should be that way instead of saying your opinion without backing it up.

 

Nidus´s balancing. I mentioned how I run a full strength build and how it increase my 1st ability power cost to 60, I say it is a fair trade-off in exchange for massive damage boost given you have enough stacks for it.

 

 

TL;DR. You call for nerfs on something that you didn´t even presumably try to play yourself or maybe you did, but rather on your personal experience seeing others play Nidus in a strictly PvE environment. Whatever has been said by OP and few others is proven to be invalid because it is not possible. I am a humble and helpful player and have never said this to undermine somehow and I won´t start now, I am a founder with a buttload of hours of gameplay behind me and I am far from bad, You can say whatever you want about Nidus being unkillable and whatever else you can think off, I will prove you wrong. Every time.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

11 hours ago, DinendalMinyatur said:

Oh boy, this is the definition of bullS#&$.

Amplified Damage = Base Damage × (1 + Power Strength) × (1 + Number of Stacks) Here is the formula on warframe wikia. So let's see what a %200 power strength Nidus can do

Amplified Damage = 200x (1+1) x (1+10) =4400 puncture damage

Current Health = Base Health × ( 1 + ( Current Level − Base Level )² × 0.015 )  Here is the formula for health scaling. So a corrupted crewman on lvl 200 should have

Current Health = 60x (1+(200-1)² x 0.015) =32,832 hp

Not  to mention he's going to have similiar amounts of shield.

 

Anyway back to topic. A bit of nerf here and there wouldnt really hurt Nidus much. But a rework? No way. If it is going to be like reworks of Mag and Ash definitely no. (They used to be gamebreaking I admit but now especially mag feels dull and clunky to play.)

His passive healing can be toned down a little bit and larva can have a max limit to pull enemies. His undying can be completely removed. It wouldnt hurt him on the high end levels imo

I agreed with everything you said until I got to the end and found this line:

11 hours ago, DinendalMinyatur said:

His undying can be completely removed. It wouldnt hurt him on the high end levels imo

.......

You are wrong.

Let me explain:

At low levels, Nidus can kill everything with only a few stacks and no weapons, but at higher levels, stacks are everything. If you can't kill enemies in 1-2 casts, you will likely have to use your weapons or risk dying. Add in the unreliability of his 2nd, and the increasing likelihood of being one-shot despite having cast your 3rd on a heavy unit, and his passive becomes all the more necessary. Not because you don't want to run out of revives, but because losing all of your stacks will cause a severe setback. I have been at 100 stacks in a mission and then gained and lost a total of 40 stacks in ~30 seconds due to repetitive one-shots and use of his 1 and 2. If his passive wasn't there, I likely would have died 4 times and lost all of my stacks instead.

In short: his passive is crucial to his survival in bad situations. It should not be removed.

[Fast_98]

10 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

I agreed with everything you said until I got to the end and found this line:

.......

You are wrong.

Let me explain:

At low levels, Nidus can kill everything with only a few stacks and no weapons, but at higher levels, stacks are everything. If you can't kill enemies in 1-2 casts, you will likely have to use your weapons or risk dying. Add in the unreliability of his 2nd, and the increasing likelihood of being one-shot despite having cast your 3rd on a heavy unit, and his passive becomes all the more necessary. Not because you don't want to run out of revives, but because losing all of your stacks will cause a severe setback. I have been at 100 stacks in a mission and then gained and lost a total of 40 stacks in ~30 seconds due to repetitive one-shots and use of his 1 and 2. If his passive wasn't there, I likely would have died 4 times and lost all of my stacks instead.

In short: his passive is crucial to his survival in bad situations. It should not be removed.

His passive shouldn't be removed but honestly I feel that it should require 15-20 stacks. 

[DinendalMinyatur]

1 hour ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

I agreed with everything you said until I got to the end and found this line:

.......

You are wrong.

Let me explain:

At low levels, Nidus can kill everything with only a few stacks and no weapons, but at higher levels, stacks are everything. If you can't kill enemies in 1-2 casts, you will likely have to use your weapons or risk dying. Add in the unreliability of his 2nd, and the increasing likelihood of being one-shot despite having cast your 3rd on a heavy unit, and his passive becomes all the more necessary. Not because you don't want to run out of revives, but because losing all of your stacks will cause a severe setback. I have been at 100 stacks in a mission and then gained and lost a total of 40 stacks in ~30 seconds due to repetitive one-shots and use of his 1 and 2. If his passive wasn't there, I likely would have died 4 times and lost all of my stacks instead.

In short: his passive is crucial to his survival in bad situations. It should not be removed.

Bro, you died cuz you dont know how to parkour, git gud bro Just kidding

I see your point, let's just say I was ready to sacrifice his undying to keep his other powers safe from the nerf. Otherwise, I'm totally fine with him. 

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Just now, Fast_98 said:

His passive shouldn't be removed but honestly I feel that it should require 15-20 stacks. 

This would be almost as bad as removing it. The point of his passive is to allow you to remain competitive against what-ever just killed you. If you lose 15-20 stacks, you lose so much damage from is 1 and 4 that you have no chance of killing whatever killed you in the next 5 seconds (as you likely would have killed it with your weapons or used your 2 or 3 on it before it killed you if those options were available).

[Xekrin]

Unless there is a mirage spamulor on the team, then good fraking luck getting stacks!  Plenty of other frames still being played.  With every new frame release everyone plays that one exclusively for a while.  It will calm down eventually.

[achromos]

14 hours ago, Xekrin said:

Unless there is a mirage spamulor on the team, then good fraking luck getting stacks!  Plenty of other frames still being played.  With every new frame release everyone plays that one exclusively for a while.  It will calm down eventually.

Yup,  I mean nowadays nobody even plays Titania much...  but in her release?  Every other squad was full of the fairies.

[M.ZET]

Feelings after reading all mean Nidus topic these day, moreover I will talk everything by 20+ hour playing of my Nidus.

 

1. Nidus op? The begging of the mission is always very tough for him , especially in high lv mission (such as sortie),  Nidus will be killed easily by high lv enemies with lack of stacks. Then you are hard to get stacks as Enemies just spawn 1-2 per area. This will usually happen in high lv sab ,exterminate mission and other similar ones.

 2. 1 and 1 shot everything ? No, I tried Mot and after 50min, my 1 can not 1 shot anything with 100 stacks. This means Nidus has no more oper than other frames. However I know Galatine P, Atterax and some other weapons can do this. Shall we nerf these weapons ? No. I know no one wants to do this. So dont say we shall nerf Nidus.

3. Defense op? Not really, Still in Mot, Nidus will be killed with link of 3 and stand on his grass (4) after 50mins by Mobs. The only hope for him to survive and continue killing is Shadow Step or atl least SS is the most effective one.

 

[xZephyrosx]

I really thinks that Nidus is where he should be .... Dont nerf or change anything ... Before you finnaly are strong and ready to kill you are 15/20 minutes in the mission.