More stealth nerfs to stealth

[p3z1]

Have noticed something weird recently, mostly on the stealth department.

Tried with Secura Lecta and Kesheg, with Primed Reach. Missing enemies with attacks alert them. This has been there for a while now (started U19.5).

So now, here's the list of nerfs done to stealth:
- Affinity gains nerfed, for solo and coop
- Enemies detect bodies, even when channeling
- Enemies sometimes break the combo counter (due to delayed spawning)
- Enemies can spawn WAY BEHIND of you, forcing you to backtrack and delay the mission further (also cutting the counter)
- Arc traps shock some unalerted units, but don't shock alerted enemies.
- Triggering arc traps alert enemies.
- More explosive barrels (c/o @Xzorn)
- Barrels have a damned large AoE compared to before, about ~3x larger AoE, making stealth harder

Here's a list of buffs they did to stealth:
- Affinity gain, which was nerfed

There you have it, the balance between doing things stealthy and guns blazing. To be honest, I'd rather just run around wagging my gun in any direction or abuse affinity farming mechanics rather than actually do stealth.

Due to being feedback, this necessitates suggestions:
- Channeled kills don't trigger enemies
- There should be a delay when enemies are alerted from flying corpses (projectile users will get this)
- Allow destruction of corpses (or the like)
- Fix spawning
- Enemies shouldn't randomly kill the counter, just because I've killed 50 enemies without breaking the counter.

Edited January 7, 2017 by p3z1
Added more info

[Marine027]

I agree on alot of those, sadly the argument seems so far its more realisitc and a smarter AI.

Come on DE if they whould be smart or realistic they whould just blow the ship up we are in, seeing they clearly had no chance so far, to get rid of us.

Of course its gameplay wise but, by now i see no reason to be stealth if the reward or result is less then just bashing trough hordes of enemys.

[p3z1]

2 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

I agree on alot of those, sadly the argument seems so far its more realisitc

Sure, more realistic...

- Can't lift and hide corpses, or even push them away
- Arc traps not proccing for alerted grineer, only for unalerted ones
- Ignis that can burn through 3 rooms and kill you (Orokin Derelict Scorches)

- DOUBLE JUMPS
- A kid surviving a bullet, plenty of times (Most will get this)

The "realistic" argument doesn't hold water anymore TBH. I don't see why some players would like this enforced...

7 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

and a smarter AI.

Smarter arc traps AI. So much for being traps in the first place. Make one work, balance another.

[NecromancerX69]

So far the only frame that can dispose of corpses is Ash.

Kind of sucks since I used my Ivara + Dagger to farm the damned affinity, still needed to get an xp booster to get better affinity gain.

To make it short, I stopped farming affinity the day they added the corpse mechanic....

[p3z1]

Just now, NecromancerX69 said:

So far the only frame that can dispose of corpses is Ash.

Kind of sucks since I used my Ivara + Dagger to farm the damned affinity, still needed to get an xp booster to get better affinity gain.

To make it short, I stopped farming affinity the day they added the corpse mechanic....

I stopped affinity farming when they "fixed" affinity gains from stealth multipliers, without a proper counter balance.

And yes, even Ash kills can still be detected :|

[FireSegment]

1 hour ago, p3z1 said:

Enemies detect bodies, even when channeling

i dont know about this cuz i completed a riven mod that involve doing 50 finisher kill on unalerted enemy about 4-5 day ago, the only way i could do it was to loki swap, then channel kill them, the body gone for good. So it's still work. 

 

PS: Did u ever try a stealth nekros? :3

Edited January 7, 2017 by FireSegment

[p3z1]

24 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

i dont know about this cuz i completed a riven mod that involve doing 50 finisher kill on unalerted enemy about 4-5 day ago, the only way i could do it was to loki swap, then channel kill them, the body gone for good. So it's still work. 

Oddly doesn't work for me. Enemies get alerted randomly, even after the corpse disappears.

25 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

PS: Did u ever try a stealth nekros? :3

Too slow to desecrate corpses, enemies are still getting alerted.

[Xzorn]

You forgot,

-Added over abundance of exploding barrels.

-Changed min-map to display furthest enemy, causing back tracking.

 

I doubt anything will change. There were just about no changes to stealth in 4 years then 8 or 9 direct or indirect nerfs after the Focus system was added.

Ash's Bladestorm can dissolve corpses but you don't get stealth affinity bonus for killing them.

Seems obvious to me what the intentions are.

 

[p3z1]

3 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

You forgot,

-Added over abundance of exploding barrels.

-Changed min-map to display furthest enemy, causing back tracking.

Thanks for adding to the list

[Rolunde]

Besides the ones listed another I've found is enemies being much more aware of melee strikes near them.

What I mean is that some weapons have quite a bit of swing animation involved in their attacks. And some of those swings will hit the ground or maybe a wall and make what I'll call an 'impact spark' and a sort of 'ping' noise, which Alerts nearby enemies.

I've seen happen a lot with both Polearms and Glaives. 

So this makes it kinda problematic getting melee kills while stealth on them (Not Stealth Melee kills where you sneak up behind them and then Execute).

Swing an Orthos, sparks the ground, enemy alerted, then you hit them and the stealth multiplier is broken. 

It's almost worse with Glaives since they have a Swing before the Throw. So if you're close enough to an enemy when you initiate a Throw the swing can 'spark' and set them to Alert just before the throw. 

Sure Glaives aren't the best weapons but this just takes them down another notch.

And since the Orvius is basically a "channelling weapon" it's otherwise actually pretty good as a Stealth melee, imo.

You just now have to be extra careful with not alerting enemies to attacks or bodies while also being extra careful not blowing yourself up!

Anyhow, cheers!
~R~

[Wiergate]

I might mention enemies 'detecting' the bodies of fallen comrades and breaking the stealth multiplier because they were run through and killed by my arrow exactly one frame after said comrade was. This happens even if they're both facing away from me, LOS has nothing to do with it. 

(Mind you, given that once they've gone through the animation of mounting it they can swing a Rampart through 180 degrees and already be firing in exactly one frame as well, perhaps that makes sense.) 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Wiergate

[Nazrethim]

Suggestions:

-Make weapons with Corrosive or Fire element destroy the bodies by either dissolving them into unrecognizable puddle or burning them to ashes.

-Buff stealth kill bonus duration to about 60s to make up for needless backtracking or the odd moment nobody spawns or when they spawn in clusters and you need to wait for them to spread, or when somebody notices a corpse and you need to wait for them to calm down.

-Make Level Alarms no longer give away your position to the enemy, instead put them on hyper-sensitive alert and searching for you. If you break LoS they don't know where you are, so you can stay behind them and deactivate alarms while they aren't looking.

-Allow players to hack security consoles without an alert going on to disable all security features in the mission for a short period of time (traps, laser barriers, security cameras, other security panels, regulators, robotics&mechanical units, ramparts, turrets)

-Add a "distraction" mod for throwing knives that causes them to no longer alert enemies when missing near them, instead act as Ivara's distracting arrow on a shorter aoe.

 

[SoldierOS]

The biggest problem that i see with stealth is the alert state. 

Well, lets say you kill an enemy with an arrow, and other enemies notice the corpse flying past them. They will sure be alerted, they will know from which direction you made the shot, anyone with a brain (or a decent AI in this case) can realize that. But one thing that they shoudn't know is who killed their cloned partner. BUT THEY DO! It don't matter if you killed and then hid yourself or the shot punched through a wall. They will know that you, the warframe, the Tenno scum, killed their brothers. And if they point in your direction, you're screwed; the whole map knows your presence now.

I feel that the alert system in warframe is like 1 for alerted and 0 for not. There's no middle, that is what makes me nervous about stealth.

Edited January 10, 2017 by SoldierOS
fell/feel

[DatDarkOne]

 

On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 4:37 PM, Nazrethim said:

Suggestions:

-Make weapons with Corrosive or Fire element destroy the bodies by either dissolving them into unrecognizable puddle or burning them to ashes.

This was one thing I suggested a while back and even mentioned it to Rebecca.  Another recent knowledge bomb I found is the Acrid is weapon that can do this.  I plan to fully test this as soon as I finish crafting the weapon. 

I do agree overall that doing stealth isn't rewarding in comparison to the effect needed to successfully do it. 

Edit:  Just tested and found Miasma doesn't dispose of the bodies

Edited January 10, 2017 by DatDarkOne
correction and more info.

[p3z1]

On 1/8/2017 at 6:37 AM, Nazrethim said:

Suggestions:

-Make weapons with Corrosive or Fire element destroy the bodies by either dissolving them into unrecognizable puddle or burning them to ashes.

-Buff stealth kill bonus duration to about 60s to make up for needless backtracking or the odd moment nobody spawns or when they spawn in clusters and you need to wait for them to spread, or when somebody notices a corpse and you need to wait for them to calm down.

-Make Level Alarms no longer give away your position to the enemy, instead put them on hyper-sensitive alert and searching for you. If you break LoS they don't know where you are, so you can stay behind them and deactivate alarms while they aren't looking.

-Allow players to hack security consoles without an alert going on to disable all security features in the mission for a short period of time (traps, laser barriers, security cameras, other security panels, regulators, robotics&mechanical units, ramparts, turrets)

-Add a "distraction" mod for throwing knives that causes them to no longer alert enemies when missing near them, instead act as Ivara's distracting arrow on a shorter aoe.

 

- Makes one dependent on 1-2 elementals, not really a good idea IMO.

- I have mixed feelings for that "distraction" mod. It's good because throwing knives/stars now have a good stealth gimmick. Sadly, you'd need a mod for that, which would be probably put somewhere next to unreachable (or hard to farm for).

Agreeing with the rest.

[deothor]

On 7.01.2017 at 8:56 AM, p3z1 said:

or abuse affinity farming mechanics rather than actually do stealth.

Could you point me to some guides on how to do it :)?

I'd love to see a way to speed up my affinity farming (Other than akkad with non-OP melee mods) :)

[p3z1]

1 minute ago, deothor said:

Could you point me to some guides on how to do it :)?

I'd love to see a way to speed up my affinity farming (Other than akkad with non-OP melee mods) :)

You answered it yourself.

There are other methods other than that, and I don't condone using them. No, I am not too familiar with them TBH.

[ashrah]

they should make   one portion of game for ppl who like stealth... something like metal gear 5..

[Trittium00]

On 07/01/2017 at 3:56 PM, p3z1 said:

Tried with Secura Lecta and Kesheg, with Primed Reach. Missing enemies with attacks alert them. This has been there for a while now (started U19.5).

Could be wrong, but I believe this was a change that came with one of the patches where melee attacks that hit walls (which you would do quite often on weapons with primed reach) would cause enemies to become alerted, seemingly from the sound of the weapon striking the wall.

So in this instance, it could be a case of actually dropping your weapon range for the sake of stealth runs.

Agree that the recent nerfs to stealth were very unnecessary, but yeah as far as dealing with the specific problem goes this could be a partial workaround.

[p3z1]

1 minute ago, Trittium00 said:

Could be wrong, but I believe this was a change that came with one of the patches where melee attacks that hit walls (which you would do quite often on weapons with primed reach) would cause enemies to become alerted, seemingly from the sound of the weapon striking the wall.

So in this instance, it could be a case of actually dropping your weapon range for the sake of stealth runs.

Agree that the recent nerfs to stealth were very unnecessary, but yeah as far as dealing with the specific problem goes this could be a partial workaround.

Give me the patch notes

[ArchPhaeton]

I was about to make a post on this but things are way worse than I was seeing them. Good post!

And yes there is simply no reason to go in stealth missions: less loot, less exp, harder to keep the stealth combo, enemies getting alerted in split-seconds and breaking your combo even if you kill them all at once, etc etc.

So they take out Xini, Draco, Viver, Egate  but still push us to the next loot cave...