The Second Stream Podcast: Cyst, Hema resource cost, Damage 3.0, & Special Guest [DE]Steve!

[[DE]Drew]

The first podcast of 2017 is here! Our guests today discuss the infamous Cyst, Hema resource cost, Nullifier weak points, Damage 3.0, and more. Hope you enjoy!

Guests:
Momaw @Momaw
Xenogelion  Xenogelion
AGGP  AGGP
[DE]Steve https://twitter.com/sj_sinclair

 

Also available on iTunes & Google Music!

 

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

I don't know if i like the way the answers are written lol.....

Especially on 2 and 3.....😂

 

1. Never mess with fashionframe without options off the bat. 😊

2.  It's not about difficulty for me it's about the huge jump up in resource for the new clan weapon. I intend to purchase the pack but i still don't like the direction of this. You guys really should be ashamed of the Hema cost. 😕

3.  Of course but don't go out of control. 😂

4.  Love it seriously a good idea.😊

5.  Not happy about this but then again i understand. But i would give up any mod to help. Heck i hope you guys can find a way to get around it and overhaul mandatory mods.☺

Edited January 9, 2017 by (PS4)Mofojokers

[Kracken]

What's your view on the contagious Warframe Cyst?
New players that have way to much content to play thru to get Glast gambit should be immune to it.

Do you have difficulty meeting the resource costs required to craft new weapons?
&
Do you think weapons should require a significant time and/or resource investment to craft?
Getting stuff fast and easy is no fun at all. But when its horribly hard / frustrating to get ... its no fun either...
Any lot enhancers should be excluded as a mandatory factor to get stuff.

What is your first impression of a Nullifier weak point that would require heavy direct damage to destroy?

It would be super helpful to any slow rate of fire weapon.

"What is your first impression of Damage 3.0 revolving around refreshing enemies rather than mods?"

at first ... it was BOTH... so I'm sad about it now...

 

 

Edited January 10, 2017 by Kracken

[Transformau5]

I put "Not sure" in the last question - I like the idea of making weak enemies smarter, though I don't think you should abandon the idea of balancing the mods.

[shyguyk]

Damage 3.0 should still be getting rid of mandatory mods. If you see a given mod always used on a weapon, its no longer a mod. it's just standardization.For example, If you find serration on every build, then serration should just be incorporated into every gun.

Secondly, it should look at mod percentages being too damn high as well.

[Xekrin]

What is your first impression of Damage 3.0 revolving around refreshing enemies rather than mods?

Do I want this? Yes and no.  Because both need 'refreshing'.  We have mods that are completely useless (straightup status chance), mods that are nearly pointless (straightup physical damage mods, the common ones), and mods that would be nice to use but it feels detrimental to most builds because of so many 'mandatory' mods.

Now I know if mandatory (base damage, multishot) were removed, we'd get a whole new assortment of 'mandatory mods', but here's the thing.  We won't know until we try.  Mainly, I want to see weapons 'grow' as warframes do, with each rank on a frame, their abilities increase in strength.  There was this rumor that weapons would someday do the same.  Where base stats would increase innately with rank as well as mods.

Since the current array of mandatory mods are like 90% about increasing base damage and multishot, I feel it would really help if we didn't have to worry about that.  In my opinion, all multishot mods should be removed, all single stat no-negative base damage mods should be removed.  These would be directly infused into the weapon.

Some weapons would also have innate multishot values, like how Cernos Prime does.  Or Ignis and a few others.  Heavy calibur and other mods with dual stats of positive/negative attributes would remain, as those are a tradeoff.

---

On the other hand, NPCs definitely need refreshed also, the thing is it would have to happen at the same time as mods, one without the other would overbalance the scales in either direction resulting in anarchy.

Just my opinion, of course!

[Burre.png]

In my opinion, I think that some weapons should have a material and time investment as long as the weapon is actually worthwhile. 

[Askannon]

1 minute ago, shyguyk said:

Damage 3.0 should still be getting rid of mandatory mods. If you see a given mod always used on a weapon, its no longer a mod. it's just standardization.For example, If you find serration on every build, then serration should just be incorporated into every gun.

Maybe not instantaneously (as assume you mean it) but integrated in the levels so you can install mods you like with your mastery but you still have to level the weapon to get the bonus. Just an idea.

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

2. Do you have difficulty meeting the resource costs required to craft new weapons?

1. It's not that I have difficulty researching the HEMA. It's the fact that after putting in 3600+ h of playtime, I barely have 7000 Mutagen Samples (I am an extreme case. The next closest clan members who also played 3000+ h have only 3500). How can you set a goal where dedicated veterans have trouble getting the resources? If you expect clan members to contribute, then give us a reason to have a clan in the first place. Currently, there is pretty much ZERO reason to have a clan beside research.
   • Where are the clan events?
   • Where are the clan competition?
   • etc.
2. It's not good to assume 100% clan member contribution. It's more rational to go with an average of 50% (and that's pushing it for active members).
3. If you going to put an exorbitant requirement amount, at least make that material drop in MULTIPLE areas. I thought the point of Void Fissure was to alleviate single tile-set fatigue? Well, here is forcing Derelict down your throat.

As an aside, I find most of  the answer choices do not reflect the correct (or even best) answer. All of them require some sort of extra input from players. It feels as if the available answers are there to quickly detracts players from the real problem. Personally, I feel insulted (as a loyal player) with the choices.

Edited January 9, 2017 by (PS4)A_SimpleName

[shyguyk]

Just now, Askannon said:

Maybe not instantaneously (as assume you mean it) but integrated in the levels so you can install mods you like with your mastery but you still have to level the weapon to get the bonus. Just an idea.

Well yea, but i thought everyone assumed that by now. Supposedly thats what they did in the past anyway

[RahuHordika]

1. I have no comments here, I don't mind the cyst being there and find the infection mechanic.... interesting, but I really want to see more of the system, I can see why people consider it as an annoyance otherwise.

2. Often I have no issue making weapons, only when there is an excessive requirement for a resource that isn't so simple to obtain in large quantities *coughcoughsibearcough* or when they require other weapons to craft (or are based on part drops).

3. I feel like there should be another option here 'some effort but not too much' because while I can understand and accept some weapons requiring more effort if they're really worth it, things like the Hema research requirements are excessive as hell and not worth it for anything, especially given the weapon stats.

4. It's an improvement for sure, but it is not the ultimate solution, nullifiers themselves are still enemies that can both be cheesed by meta gear and are still a chore, unfun and boring design with their nope-field. A 'you can't use your toys' method is just not fun when applied to an enemy that has the spawn rate of rabbits with all the bubble stacked and other nonsense.

Either adjust them to be 'heavy' units (aka a lesser spawn rate) to justify their mechanics or rework the bubble completely.

 

5. Honestly pure damage mods NEED to go or be reworked IMO, basic plus damage is a MUST regardless of how you want to build stuff and it's a fake choice that only serves to take up a slot and points because of how necesary it is. I'm okay with more varied enemy types but this has to be adressed, there is no other way.

Edited January 9, 2017 by RahuHordika

[Genitive]

1 minute ago, Xekrin said:

What is your first impression of Damage 3.0 revolving around refreshing enemies rather than mods?

Do I want this? Yes and no.  Because both need 'refreshing'.  We have mods that are completely useless (straightup status chance), mods that are nearly pointless (straightup physical damage mods, the common ones), and mods that would be nice to use but it feels detrimental to most builds because of so many 'mandatory' mods.

Now I know if mandatory (base damage, multishot) were removed, we'd get a whole new assortment of 'mandatory mods', but here's the thing.  We won't know until we try.  Mainly, I want to see weapons 'grow' as warframes do, with each rank on a frame, their abilities increase in strength.  There was this rumor that weapons would someday do the same.  Where base stats would increase innately with rank as well as mods.

Since the current array of mandatory mods are like 90% about increasing base damage and multishot, I feel it would really help if we didn't have to worry about that.  In my opinion, all multishot mods should be removed, all single stat no-negative base damage mods should be removed.  These would be directly infused into the weapon.

Some weapons would also have innate multishot values, like how Cernos Prime does.  Or Ignis and a few others.  Heavy calibur and other mods with dual stats of positive/negative attributes would remain, as those are a tradeoff.

---

On the other hand, NPCs definitely need refreshed also, the thing is it would have to happen at the same time as mods, one without the other would overbalance the scales in either direction resulting in anarchy.

Just my opinion, of course!

Amen to that.

I like it how some new mods put a twist on weapons, rather than simply increasing stats. And I would like to see more mods like that. At least the likes of Serration/Pressure point should be incorporated into weapons to make place for more mods. 

The bigger issue I think Damage 3.0 should address is enemy scaling. I would like to hear more on that.

[NightmareT12]

Too many controversial topics at once. But let's see if I can summarize:

Cyst: A good idea that's been rushed, resulting in a sour taste in players given that's something cosmetic as well. This one's "easy" to solve though, because it all comes down as to how much control the player has in deciding to have it or not.

Nullifier's bubble: Given that many times you use a Semi Auto/Sniper/Bow or sorties restrict you to one, it's great to have a point you can aim to get rid of it instead of having to deal with the bubble itself.

Hema and weapons resource costs: This one's just parting from a bad basis, I believe. The issue isn't just the weapon costs, it's what resource they cost and how accessible that resource is. If you guys asked for 500k Control Modules it wouldn't be the same, for example.

I believe you guys went too much into the "how many do players, as a whole, have" and not so much into "how much players contribute in a clan, how easily accessible the resource is, how many drops on a single mission (in endless, let's put a whole complete A/B/C rotation) and how many players go there".

The Mutagen Samples only drop from Eiris and the Derelicts, and the Derelicts, which have more spawns, are closed beyond keys (yes, they're not like old Void keys but it's not as easy to jump to). Then you guys took a look at how much of the resource we had, but honestly... I had 300 Mutagen Samples, and I haven't used or farmed for those in ages. I can't remember the last time I went into one of those missions to farm/play/have fun because there's not much for me there.

I think this just shows some issues the game has that are not directly put into your face, as I like to call it.

Damage 3.0: I believe the damage mods (the base ones, not elemental ones nor Corrupt ones since they give you an actual drawback) must go away, with all weapons showing the max values and having a more interesting path to follow. I don't like having what basically feels like absolutely needed mods ("Damage+Multishot"). I think Melee weapons are the ones in the best position right now because you choose much more in your needs: "Do I want to use Spoiled Strike, or have more AS and hit more per second". It also has currently the most interesting choices, specially after the last batch you guys threw at us.

But it also needs of enemy armor and scaling rebalancing, and then Warframes and then... You just go on and on.

Having said that, I'm not against the idea of having more diverse mobs and new enemy types. More variety isn't bad right now.

Edited January 9, 2017 by NightmareT12
Corrected a part I wrote erroneusly, making it look like I was trying to say something else

[CrudShuzKong]

5.: "Mandatory" mods need to go. They have no impact on the game whatsoever, just there to eat up mod slots (Straight damage and multishot for non-shotties)

[xXDeadsinxX]

Damage 3.0 should take mandatory mods out of our builds and out of the game. We have serration for example in every single primary weapon which is bad. It should be replaced with each level. So the more you rank up your weapon the stronger. 

[NightmareT12]

Just now, xXDeadsinxX said:

Damage 3.0 should take mandatory mods out of our builds and out of the game. We have serration for example in every single primary weapon which is bad. It should be replaced with each level. So the more you rank up your weapon the stronger. 

That makes no sense to me though. I think stronger should come by mods and not by level, but having you modify IPS or Elements, not with the base ones certainly.

I'd like to have all weapons buffed or enemies balanced around base values instead. But keeping the weapons a static value, since the upgrades come in other ways.

[xXDeadsinxX]

5 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

That makes no sense to me though. I think stronger should come by mods and not by level, but having you modify IPS or Elements, not with the base ones certainly.

I'd like to have all weapons buffed or enemies balanced around base values instead. But keeping the weapons a static value, since the upgrades come in other ways.

That to yeah.

[Trichouette]

Wow it's the first time I need to use so often the "other (post below)"

1. What's your view on the contagious Warframe Cyst?

Honestly I don't really care, but I think it was a nice experiment and an inovative way to obtain a new pet. I'm just sad all these players act like "omg it's so ugly please remove it" and whine about it on the forum all the time.

 

2. Do you have difficulty meeting the resource costs required to craft new weapons?

I used the "no opinion" since you guys didn't put the "other", I don't usually have difficulty, even if it involve farming 10 mutagen mass, but when you guys ask for such a gigantic amount of ressource that is nowhere realistic just for ONE weapon, yes I do have difficulty.

The only weapons like these are sybear and hema dojo cost.

On the other hand, a lot of weapon & dojo requirement should have increased cost, it needs to stay realistic but some are really too cheap. (see next)

 

3. Do you think weapons should require a significant time and/or resource investment to craft?

All weapons should require investment, but the investment should scale with the level tier of the weapon (if they were properly balanced).

It's ok for a low rank weapon to ask for low amount of ressources, but some more powerful weapons should ask for more ressources.

(and please reduce that hema cost already)

 

4. What is your first impression of a Nullifier weak point that would require heavy direct damage to destroy?

The idea is good but AGAIN it's a bandage for another problem in game, if warframes weren't so OP and unbalanced, enemies wouldn't require disrupting abilities like nulifiers.

However since you'll probably never balance frames, it's a nice bandage... my lex will be happy.

 

5. What is your first impression of Damage 3.0 revolving around refreshing enemies rather than mods?

Worst, idea, ever.

Enemies DO need a refresh and rework of their scaling capabilities & abilities, but mods NEED to be changed and balanced.

You don't want to nerf stuff to keep us able to customize our weapons, but we're stuck with 6 mods slots only because of the damage & multishot mods.

I'm sick of starting every weapon build by looking for the multishot & damage mod in the list, they HAVE to go.

(and seriously, drifting contact and chilling reload are the most ridiculous mods you guys ever made, they cost less than other mods doing the same thing but they're even better)

 

I was very disappointed by this devstream, because of the

1. damage 3.0 "will never happen" talk (or at least not by removing mandatory mods)
2. bard frame having deployable (only ?)
3. "we want to honour the people who farmed for hema by not changing the cost"
4. frost delux skin that is absolutely awful (but that's only my taste, I can't blame devs for this)

The only good news is the nerf to nulifiers... (and hopefuly a neon color palet ? :D)

[Kinperor]

I will talk succinctly of the Infested Room and the Cyst:

I frankly don't see the point of having implemented it so fast. Every other pets before the Helmint Charger came with a lot of refinement, they were very distinct from the closest enemy analogue. I feel that the Helminth Charger is way beneath the standard established previously for pets and I frankly think it is better off not being in the game at all (under this implementation). I understand that people called for Charger pets at some point in the past, but I feel it is a weak argument to suddenly implement the Helminth Charger as is. I remember people saying that they were missing the first iteration of Golem... an oversized Runner.

DE has established some standards for new content, and I feel that the Infested room sacrificed too much quality for what we got. I also understand that recycling assets is a normal way to accelerate new content, but the Charger just doesn't work. The room itself has practically no content, I wouldn't have bothered opening it if I hadn't got infected randomly and figured I might as well. Same thing for the cyst, implementing it this early doesn't have many pros in its favor.

I concede that there might be some inspiration from players theory-crafting around it. However, I think it's just a pointless eyesore. I eagerly wait for the cure. I'm not saying this to bash anyone, it is just I don't know what to make of any of these additions at this point in time.

[Xaero]

I'd prefer mod system to be reworked into mostly trade-offs and condition mods while also lowering percentage increase they give to stats. Enemy system reworked into tiers was always my proposal so I'm totally fine with it.

[Triplemob720]

Refreshing enemies and mods both should happen at damage 3.0. How could there be a modding diversity when half of the mod slot is filled with just damage mods? (damage + multishot + 2 elemental). This is even worse for crit weapon since you have to use another 2 slots for crit chance and crit damage. Damage 3.0 needs to get rid of multishot and damage mods for sure, and needs to implement elemental damage in a way that doesn't just add 90% of damage.

For Enemy refreshment, hoping to see challenging enemies that are strong as juggernaut, bursa, and manic

[Photovoltaeic]

3. I wouldn't mind a significant investment in the game if it had some factor other than Exp gain that drove me to get the weapon in the first place. If Hema is the only healing-stat rifle, then yeah. I would invest in it. If there are others though that are better, why bother? 

In short- Assure me its gonna be the one of the higher-end* or high quality weapons, and yes. I will invest the time and resources. if not- "put that thing back where it came from or so help me"

[Syln]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)Mofojokers said:

I don't know if i like the way the answers are written lol.....

Especially on 2 and 3.....😂

 

1. Never mess with fashionframe without options off the bat. 😊

2.  It's not about difficulty for me it's about the huge jump up in resource for the new clan weapon. I intend to purchase the pack but i still don't like the direction of this.

3.  Of course but don't go out of control. 😂

4.  Love it seriously a good idea.

5.  Not happy about this but then again i understand. But i would give up any mod to help. Heck i hope you guys can find a way to get around it and overhaul mandatory mods.

I'm lazy and agree with this guy so ... here i quote !

[WhyNotBro]

Kinda frustrating answers for the 5th question :D It's bassically "yes" or "i don't know" options. Where is the option " I think mods AND enemies need attention, because many mods are nothing more, but trash; and enemies have no scalling in fact (Tenno is the guy who oneshots or the guy who has been oneshoted)
And 2nd question...come on :D We all know exactly which weapon(s) brought troubles to players.

[Krion112]

Resource Investment

I was under the impression that I should be able to amass the resources necessary to build weapons at a pace that is comfortable to me, and to be honest, up until the Hema, that was accurate. The issue is that you cannot stockpile the amount of mutagen samples necessary to complete that research, even over the course of 3 years of playing the game at the rate I collected that resource. This is why I have not complained of Nitain, because I expect if Nitain had existed 3 years ago, I would have amassed the amount to have easily constructed the equipment that requires it for craft.

I mean, I already spent the time well in advance accumulating that resource over the course of the game, and then I have to wait for 3 days of research, and then another day for construction. I'd argue that the Hema cost is completely unfair to the player, given that no standard player could amass that amount on their own on a median time investment. No other weapon should follow in its footsteps, and it needs to be changed. The argument of throwing a change of cost in the face of players who already carried it out has no merit; we all signed up knowing quite well that the game could change, even that it could change even out from under us. Plus, we have already seen changes to elements of the game that uprooted the work of players, such as Warframe and Weapon balance passes, so to suddenly stop here is an arbitrarian reason to not to change the cost of the Hema.

If it exists for a different reason, then treat us like the adults we are and elaborate on it. If you think it will be met with negative response, then perhaps it's not befitting of the game?

Edit: Oh yes, wasn't it also mentioned in a previous Devstream that the majority of existing Clans were created and maintained by lone Tenno? The expectation that the way to get around this cost is to depend upon the entire clan therefore is even more of a slap to the face, because you're own data would suggest that most players already preference playing alone, or at least relying upon their own resources.

 

Nullifier Weakpoint

Depends upon where the Nullifier stands in balance. My understanding was that the Nullifier was supposed to be a counter-Precision, and therefore was supposed to be weak against close-quarters (Shotgun/Power) or automatic fire (Rifle/Flexibility) weapons. This is in line with the fact that Nullifiers are more uncommon than they are rare, their bubbles overlap, and they can use their bubbles while on the move.

However, if their purpose is going to be counter-Flexibility, then it'd make sense for the weak-point to exist, but automatic weapons should have little to no effect on the bubble, and they should be more aptly equipped to deal with close-quarters combat. Having them weak to both seems contrarian in design.

 

'Damage 3.0'

Again, depends on the intention. If the game is supposed to feature progressive design, then mandatory mods are kind of alright, because of course you'd need to move up with enemy scaling. Granted, I would argue mandatory mods, if this were the case, should be nerfed, and have their purpose replaced by having progressive upgrades akin to what happens to Warframes when they rank up.

However, if it's supposed to be orthogonal, then the way in which enemies scale needs to be changed, and likewise damage mods would need to be nerfed appropriately, and made unnecessary for weapons that really shouldn't need damage upgrades.

Adding new enemies will not fix the problem, because there are enemies that exist now that are countered by weapons that are considered under-powered that eventually out-progress any potential build for the weapon that counters it. For example, the Lato is good at dealing with Ballistas, but once you reach a certain point, that no longer holds to be true because the progression on the Lato is very limited, and the Ballista's progression is exponential.

Not only that, but the real issue bred by the existing system is that you have weapons that way out-perform the weapons intended for a particular role and counter-role. Why would I use the Lato to counter Ballistas, when my Warframe's speed and movement can allow me to just simply rush up with a Strun and blow them away? Effectively, making all strategies valid in all scenarios makes most strategies not valid. The answer there is that weapons should not be allowed to overlap as much. Give me a reason to use the Lato over the Tonkor.

 

The recurring issue here is a lack of a cohesive design. Warframe's game elements are clashing and grinding against one another, and its creating these long term issues that there seems to be no solution for.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Krion112