Warframe's Identity and Character

[Krion112]

As of late, my 'drive' to play the game has flat-lined. I haven't played since probably around November, and only logged in a few days ago to get the skin for the Burston that came with the Tennobaum or whatever. This has lead me to pondering why exactly I feel like the game has been pushing me away. In fact, ever since we were given ships in place of the original star-chart I've felt fatigued for playing, and it really didn't truly bother me until after the Second Dream (the quest, not the update). Even my close friends who I can occasionally gather to play the game have been feeling likewise, but none of us had words to describe why.

After a long amount of deliberation, I discovered the reason why, and what I believe it to be is that Warframe has lost its personality, among the myriad of updates, changes, and additions we've had over the years.

These are the things that motivated me to play, and also pay, but also the changes that effectively nullified them:

I liked the basic premise of the game-play sandbox, but the more I play, especially with other people, and the more imbalanced builds I see, the less I feel inclined to play, because I just can't have fun with it anymore. Especially the parkour; I wish it had been more for maneuverability than it had been for speed, as Coptering and Air Melee just break the game by increasing its pace to a level where it breaks its design. Seriously, why would I use the Pistol to counter the Sniper, when I can just leap across the whole map and land at the Sniper's feet with a Shotgun?

I liked making conjecture and getting involved with the vague lore, feeling more invested in the game for pursuing its lore, rather than actually being given answers, but now Quests are driven to explain every little part of the universe to me, especially the parts I don't need to care about, and now I just can't be compelled to ask anymore questions. I used to think getting the answers would satisfy, but Cephalon Fragments, Quests, and other Lore Dumps are proving that perhaps I just wanted to be left questioning, that I enjoyed the negative space of the narrative. Knowing the origins of the Factions or Characters doesn't change anything.

I liked the immersion of being the Warrior, regardless of if I was playing a lone Tenno that wore multiple suits of Techno-Organic Armor, played as multiple Tenno who each stuck to a single suit, or was a mastermind remote controlling the Warframes with transference, but giving my Tenno a face, voice, and backstory of their own has completely made my immersion of being the Tenno null. I am no longer the Tenno; The Tenno is now a character separate from myself.

I liked Events, which felt like a global objective that every player was working towards, that this giant persistent world was progressing forward all at once, but now with Quests, I feel like there's a definitive chronological time-line going on for each individual Tenno, and that we no longer share this world, and as such it no longer is persistent, but is individually progressive for each player. Whereas in my time-line, the Moon is back, in a Newb's time-line, the Moon is still missing, and I just can't stand that disparity, it's one of the things that just subtly bothers me in MMORPG's. You put me in a world to be shared with other players, I expect it to be consistent.

I liked the innate calm and peacefulness of looking over the starchart, with no hint or explanation as to where I was and how I was doing it. It was the calm before the storm, and it was a time for relaxing between missions and planning the next attack. With the ships, I feel fatigued constantly lugging around this Warframe, and using the menu as a shortcut doesn't help, in fact something about it feels even worse than just walking around. There's just absolutely no reason I needed to know anything about how I had access to factories, and why I was able to look over the system like this, I was only given the information I needed, and it worked.

I absolutely cannot shake this feeling that all the core reasons why Warframe was fun for me have been replaced, and that the game has lost its identity, under the guise of wanting change. There is such a thing as too much change, and exceeding the scope of what made the original project great. I understand that DE is under constant pressure for the necessity of new content, but to change at the expense of the entire game, and the characteristics that made it work? I'll just say, the execution of Parkour 2.0, Archwing, Conclave, Cinematic Quests, Lore Dumps (Fragments and Simaris), and other such new, and arguably quite unnecessary, game-mechanics, implementations, and replacements have essentially revoked my will to play the game. They take all the subtle things I enjoyed about the game, and effectively ruined them.

The worst part is these are systems I thought I'd come to praise, but no, they have been the undoing all along. Warframe is going through the exact same process that severely harmed two other franchises I used to enjoy, and that's Command & Conquer, which is now completely defunct, and Halo, which has suffered since the company change between Bungie to 343 Industries, which started pushing all the change. And that process is thinking of trying to appeal to a wider audience, utilizing the 'successful' mechanics and presentations of other games, and using them to 'amplify' your own design, but the reality is people don't like that, and it shows big time. They enjoy the franchises that they do because those franchises presented a formula that resonated with them, and when that changes, those people are forced to move on. What Warframe had was character, a unique presentation, it made its own in a time where conformity was the trend, and now that conformity is dying is when Warframe decides it's time to conform?

And this isn't some 'I'm Leaving Warframe' perspective, it's merely my concerns, my thoughts, and why I'm just not invested in the game like I used to be. Perhaps this is DE's intended design; perhaps they knew retaining players would be too difficult, so they've conceived a system in which they hang on as long as they can, until new players gain interest, and then they try to appeal to the new audience over the old one, making players like me just another 'acceptable loss'. But, maybe to the contrary this is all accidental, an unintentional side effect of the developers wanting to persevere forward, but accidentally losing their game's identity in the process.

The truth lies with them, and all I can say is the result has pushed me away, I suppose not to the point of leaving, but I definitely don't have a reason to play.

 

[artemisfortune]

I fail to see what actually drove you away. I've been playing since the day it was released on Steam. This game really hasn't changed at the core very much, other than giving you the option to be immersed. However, this game was never about immersion, and a game designer can't really make immersion a focus later on, and DE hasn't. They likely won't either. They're going a direction they wanted to for a long time. There is no conforming, and a lot of the problem is you've been playing as the game grew. Try making a new account, play from a new players perspective. The game is much much different. Where people like you and I have the option to gobble up new content as it comes out, newer players have to work up to it. It's a much different game from a new player perspective and it shows. Sure it sucks for us, but I can't blame them. Do you know how many active founders are left compared to how many exist? People get tired of all kinds of games, and as a F2P game Warframe will constantly grow and change. This month you may not like it, but next month it may add something that draws you back.

To say something is inherently wrong and that the game has lost it's personality is purely subjective though.

[Cortanis]

One of the things I find sorely lacking is the actual story content. Not the current progressive stuff to the time line, but the past stuff. Things that have happened in game that have gone down in events that are taken and used as cannon. Those things like Vor getting himself chopped in half and then the void picking him up, by all means should be and need to be retrofitted into the game as quests. Keep in mind that someone joining the game here in the last six months will have no idea what Vor is talking about once they manage to encounter him in the void or even be aware of a faction change from him in that sense.

Yes, movement 2.0 utterly breaks the game. A great example of seeing that in action is going to the void and finding any of the old treasure rooms. Almost all of them are designed for the original movement system and it shows greatly. I remember when those used to be fun and challenging... when tile sets like the void used to have regular development and stealth additions added to them... back before you could bullet jump almost literally the entire obstacle run and slide into the loot room. Things like that need to receive a heavy pass over and they need to be given an actual reason to exist at this point. They're not a go to for sculptures, any loot you can get in the room itself isn't unique to the room or challenges, and you can find most of what you will find in the rooms in almost literally every other part of the game. It does not however break combat as far as weapons are concerned. That's an entirely different issue as far as balance goes in the game.

I'd say one of the most frustrating things in the game is really the half finished or thought out ideas and systems put in. Case in point, the air support system. You're bound to using a particular ship if you want to use that particular air support. Not terribly big of a deal until you figure in the ship fashion frame and all around aesthetics. Like the fact that the Liset has faaaaaar more skins available for it than any other ship, but you may not need or want that hacking air support charge at all. If your proverbial cup of tea is the Mantis however and you need/want that same hacking air support, though as you're stuck using the Liset in that sense. The actual supports themselves really need upgrade paths as well due to the distinct lack of use that they have in the game for various issues. Kubrow, kivats, and sentinels really make that list too, but they're actually getting some kind of support as of late in that regard. Dojo's really need that serious overhaul and we keep getting promised that too, but I'll believe that one when I see it. In short, I could go on and on about the different systems that need to be finished, but it's really an issue with DE's professional grade developer ADHD that's the problem here.

By no means has the game really changed in the core respects as JSharpie said, but they have clearly come to wear thin the longer you stay. I've finished collecting the primes quite a while ago and I have very little else to collect and master left. When you get to that point or when you get to your personal plateau of what you find important in the game, it does take about all the wind out of it for you. The only thin I can suggest is to take a break and play some other games for a while. Come back later when we've had a few rounds of fresher content or you decide on something else you want to get done in the game in the long term.

[Teloch]

46 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

~snoop~

 

Congratulations! You have the imagination. As in, you filled the gaps in storytelling and explanations how you saw it fit, and you liked it that way. Alas, Warframe will never return to its "vague" atmosphere and story. Masses demand animesque cinematic quests about century XX indigo teenagers facing the obvious and banal evil.

Move along, citizen, nothing to see here :'(

 

[Krion112]

36 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

-snip-

You fail to see my point, but I can't say I'm surprised. In fact, given your response time compared to the length of my post, I think it's safe to assume you didn't read most of it, and probably skimmed to key words thinking that you could guess my perspective to be a player driven away by what you claim is 'nothing'.

I'd argue Warframe has changed dramatically from start to finish. New weapons, New Warframes, New Enemies, Invasions, Parkour systems, Orokin Towers, Archwing, Conclave, Dark Sectors, Focus and Focus Schools, Transference, Upgrades to Mods, and every other implementation of the game we have now either didn't exist or didn't play like the game used to. That doesn't seem like much to a player, I understand, but a game-designer would know that all of those new things are massive undertakings with dramatic effects upon the game they're implemented into, and that they each come with their own implications.

By the way, these are contradictory sentences in your post:

36 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

This game really hasn't changed at the core

 

36 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

The game is much much different.

 

To say it has retained its core is absolutely false, just in the same way that if you tried to tell me Halo 5 still had the 'core' game-play of the original Halo games had retained its essence. Just because the game has the same name does not mean it's still the same game.

Immersion was literally only one issue I referenced, and it was related to how the way the game presents that player and Tenno has changed dramatically.

And there is plenty conforming, what with Warframe having enhanced mobility systems and seeking out the so-called 'Cinematic Experience', which has been popular for a long time in games. To say Warframe has not been trying to appeal to more audiences than its own is laughable, but expected because of the trends in the game industry.

I already made a new account in the efforts of trying to see, like you say, from the new player's perspective, and likewise felt that the game is not the same game I started with. It plays completely different, all because of the different number of systems that have been added since its conception. An immediate example is the changes to parkour, which makes the pace of the game too fast for its balance. You also have weapons that overshadow others of a different role, due to things like Parkour disrupting weapon balance.

 

36 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

People get tired of all kinds of games, and as a F2P game Warframe will constantly grow and change. This month you may not like it, but next month it may add something that draws you back.

While generally true, that is not the case here. I've not grown tired of the game, the game has literally changed to the point I don't enjoy it anymore, and have found that every element of the game I originally liked is now long gone. Doesn't mean the new personality it has picked up is bad, it just means it's not the game I played anymore, and subjectively I don't like that.

I mean, exactly how Warframe has transformed is pretty much how Halo just transformed. More speed through enhanced mobility, more lore in your face, more colorful and bright presentation, etc, and look how it just pretty much lost a good chunk of its player-base because it's just not the game Halo was anymore. Warframe is rolling with only the corpse of its original core game-play, and I think people can tell but have no words to put to it.

I can already guarantee, Warframe will not bring my investment in it back if this is the trend it is going to persist on. I'm drawn to the game that has character of its own, not the game that shoehorns unnecessary game elements for 'cool factor'. Sure, some mechanics are really unique, but they lack character, or even sometimes they present too much character than the rest of the game was supposed to have.

 

36 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

To say something is inherently wrong and that the game has lost it's personality is purely subjective though.

No, it's absolutely not. It's an objective thing to say that Warframe has changed, and it no longer has the personality that it did. What would be subjective to say is whether or not the new identity is better or worse, which I would claim it's worse, and the patterns in which the player-base declines and returns update to update suggests a great number of players may feel likewise. Does that mean anyone's in the wrong for liking the new personality? No, not at all, because there's potential in that idea as well, just not anything that appeals to me.

[Krion112]

1 minute ago, Teloch said:

Congratulations! You have the imagination. As in, you filled the gaps in storytelling and explanations how you saw it fit, and you liked it that way. Alas, Warframe will never return to its "vague" atmosphere and story. Masses demand animesque cinematic quests about century XX indigo teenagers facing the obvious and banal evil.

Move along, citizen, nothing to see here :'(

 

A trend that is dying, no doubt. How else would the big franchises be bleeding because they're sticking to it?

No, I don't think this will work for Warframe, because it's already not working for Warframe. The big cinematic experience has only pushed me further away, and not because of what they revealed, but because they revealed anything at all. In fact, analytics would probably tell us that the big cinematics presented in Vor's Prize, Second Dream, and War Within did not retain player interest; they came, consumed, did a little afterwork, and left, as has been the trend for a long time now. 

 

8 minutes ago, Cortanis said:

By no means has the game really changed in the core respects as JSharpie said

Absolutely the core game has changed. It has to have to accommodate all the new systems and mechanics we have encountered as the game has gone on in development. In fact, you admitted to it. If Parkour breaks game-balance, that means the core game-play has changed. Just because it didn't change positively doesn't mean it didn't change.

[Teloch]

12 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

A trend that is dying, no doubt. How else would the big franchises be bleeding because they're sticking to it?

No, I don't think this will work for Warframe, because it's already not working for Warframe. The big cinematic experience has only pushed me further away, and not because of what they revealed, but because they revealed anything at all. In fact, analytics would probably tell us that the big cinematics presented in Vor's Prize, Second Dream, and War Within did not retain player interest; they came, consumed, did a little afterwork, and left, as has been the trend for a long time now. 

 

 

Exactly. There are two ways to run a fictional universe: to slowly progress it, nurturing it with small (more frequently) and large (rarely) pieces of lore, which would be put together by players as a puzzle and allow them to immerse into the universe, or to inject the fictional universe with "Revelations!"(tm) which have the steroids effect in terms of capturing audience attention. As in, either to go for a long run, or to go for "Whoa!" factor. DE decided to go the second path, which means that WF universe and franchise will never grow big due to its lacking depth and short expected lifespan. 

Edited January 10, 2017 by Teloch
dem typos

[Krion112]

9 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Exactly. There are two ways to run a fictional universe: to slowly progress it, nurturing it with small (more frequently) and large (rarely) pieces of lore, which would pe put together by players as a puzzle and allow them to immerse into the universe, or to inject the fictional universe with "Revelations!"(tm) which have the steroids effect in terms of capturing audience attention. As in, either to go for a long run, or to go for "Whoa!" factor. DE decided to go the second path, which means that WF universe and franchise will never grow big due to its lacking depth and short expected lifespan. 

Thank you! Yes, this!

Just being given lore is lazy and has no lasting power. If I'm left to ponder, try and fill in the undefined space on my own, it creates this feeling of involvement, that I become invested in the game because I have to use my actual imagination to fill out the background, and that's not lazy design in Warframe's case because the Devs were still painting a narrative, but rather than paint the narrative itself, they outlined it, painted only the space the player needed to know, and left the rest up to interpretation, which created an interaction in the community where people would argue the validity of their beliefs, keeping them invested in the game. 

Think like Miyazaki; only paint what is relevant to the audience, everything else will handle itself on its own. Narrative dumps aren't satisfactory, and do not keep me invested.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Krion112

[Caelward]

Hmm. I was really happy with the second dream. I still feel it was well done and fun.

I mean, build up all you want, but any story has to have a climax somewhere or else the audience will get tired of the bull and leave.

TWW killed much of my excitement though. I became less interested in 'me' when it was no longer me, but the angsty teenager talking. I guess the excitement couldn't last.

As far as the game changing? I'd say with the exception of a couple notable parts, the game overall has really changed for the better. The core of it though is pretty much the same from the days of founder access. You're a Guyver running around beating everything into submission with space magic and fancy guns and swords. Optionally, you may even look cool doing it. And DE occasionally makes cool things, and occasionally does something dumb. This also has not changed.

It's not hard to burn yourself out on this game. I've left for several months, several times over the course of this game. I still come back to it and enjoy it later down the road.

[Teloch]

15 minutes ago, Caelward said:

Hmm. I was really happy with the second dream. I still feel it was well done and fun.

I mean, build up all you want, but any story has to have a climax somewhere or else the audience will get tired of the bull and leave.

TWW killed much of my excitement though. I became less interested in 'me' when it was no longer me, but the angsty teenager talking. I guess the excitement couldn't last.

 

 

 

 

Everything should be balanced [insert a joke about DE's inability to comprehend the very concept of balance here].

There is such thing as "possibilities funnel" concept which states that each step taken reduces the number of potential possibilities that can be taken in the future. Yes, "the second dream" shook the whole player base. Some enjoyed (because of climax or because they did like the route the universe has taken), others were disappointed (because it ruined their immersion entirely and made the plot very far-fetched and unbelievable in their eyes), but everyone reacted. The "Whoa!" factor worked. Although, to make the successive dose of "Whoa!" at least as remotely impactful as the previous one, DE has to make it even more unbelievable (which is hard, due to the constantly decreasing space for maneuvers). In this loop, there is no more place for plot consistency or subtlety, the masses demand even more epicness, again and again, more and more.

The worst thing is that now WF universe's fate is sealed. At this point, It is too late to revert everything and to break the "Whoa!" loop.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Teloch

[Krion112]

On 1/10/2017 at 0:24 AM, Caelward said:

Hmm. I was really happy with the second dream. I still feel it was well done and fun.

I mean, build up all you want, but any story has to have a climax somewhere or else the audience will get tired of the bull and leave.

I mean, I'd agree, the cinematography itself was done very well, my issue is more that I just don't think cinematics suit the kind of game Warframe is... or, I guess I mean was.

See, the story of Warframe was told through Events. Like, why wasn't the Second Dream an Event, and why didn't it present itself more like a game and less like a movie? My qualm with where the story went was suddenly, not all Tenno are in the same universe. We have Tenno in the universe where the War Within has happened, Tenno in the universe where Second Dream happened, and Tenno in the universe where no big quest has occurred yet. And even then, each Tenno has their own separate universe where they were the hero at that particular moment.

It destroys the whole persistent world narrative.

 

On 1/10/2017 at 0:24 AM, Caelward said:

As far as the game changing? I'd say with the exception of a couple notable parts, the game overall has really changed for the better. The core of it though is pretty much the same from the days of founder access. You're a Guyver running around beating everything into submission with space magic and fancy guns and swords. Optionally, you may even look cool doing it. And DE occasionally makes cool things, and occasionally does something dumb. This also has not changed.

I'd argue to the contrary, and I'd also argue that I probably have more game-design understanding/experience to say I'm probably more qualified to say which, but that doesn't make me infallible. You're right if you said the premise of the game was the same, because yes you are still a warrior going to different locations, eradicating all who oppose you, but the ways in which that's carried out have changed, and they've changed drastically.

Let me give you an example. Take Warframe's basic Game-play: Run & Gun, tight corridors linking large chambers, back-up melee, Warframe abilities which vary in role and purpose.

Okay, now add sprint. Now your corridors have to be longer, and your chambers have to have less horizontal obstructions. Weapons need to be built to accommodate player speed, so weapons gain slight bullet magnetism and enemies are designed with leading protocols. Melee becomes under-powered because now players can sprint away from potential melee strikes before they hit.

Now add wall running; less enclosures, more open spaces for empty walls that can be used for maneuvering. Locations specifically to make use of this mechanic are added, such as parkour courses and similar. Likewise for sprint, weapons and enemy AI has to be made to accommodate.

Now add bullet-jump. Weapon balance breaks; conventional balance matrices suggest that the Sniper counters the Shotgun, as it can out range it, but suddenly the Shotgun user can just leap immediately into the face of the Sniper user and blast them away, and they move so fast no amount of fair-levels of bullet magnetism will allow the Sniper to properly track and dispatch the Shotgun.

 

See how such small things can have big impacts?

Edited January 11, 2017 by Krion112

[Caelward]

@TelochYeah, but perhaps for the next story climax, they could give some proper build-up.

DE has already expressed regret that they didn't handle TWW as well as they could/should have.

I hope they give things the proper time and attention without digging themselves a very impressive hole next time.

@Krion112. And yet, I'm enjoying this later version of the game far more than I enjoyed the early version of the game. Those movement mechanics that make smashing the sniper in the face with a shotgun are what keep me enjoying the game. Zephyr was the first thing to bring me back. Then movement 2.0 brought me back again and has done much to keep me here. I may not have anything more than my own anecdotal experience, but that experience tells me without a doubt that those same movement systems are the biggest reason I'm still playing.

On the other hand, the Kuva Fortress doesn't support many of the newer parkour mechanics. The Fortress aggressively tells you to watch where you step in fact. The map also has many layers that prevent you from bullet jumping your way down a slightly zig-zagging line. And yes I know there's not much reason to go there right now, I'd be amazed if that didn't change. For all that I enjoy zipping around with Zephyr and smashing them with the Jat Kittag, I enjoy the measured response the fortress sometimes demands of me as well. I look at the recent content and call back to my old memories of how warframe was when I started and my warm and fuzzy memories are in the today, not the yesterday.

I often take two and three month breaks as well though. I'll be here for a couple months, something new will come out, and I'll get irritated with the grind so I'll leave for a bit. I'll come back in a couple months when things have settled and do the content after it's been tweaked with the newest little updates that they sneak in here and there and more often than not, I'm happy to see how things have evolved. The only example I can think of off the top of my head that I'm actually really unhappy with is the latest archwing movement controls.

But, anecdotal experience. While I may consider the game better in my own mind, that doesn't mean that you have the same feelings about it of course. I guess that's why we're here talking about it.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Caelward

[Cortanis]

39 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

Absolutely the core game has changed. It has to have to accommodate all the new systems and mechanics we have encountered as the game has gone on in development. In fact, you admitted to it. If Parkour breaks game-balance, that means the core game-play has changed. Just because it didn't change positively doesn't mean it didn't change.

The game is still at its core a grind fest and gameplay is still dealing with masses of enemies while looking for loot. That has not changed. Parkour doesn't break the combat at all. In fact, weapons break it more so than anything. I'm not even talking about the simulor grade weapons, but even old school weapons like Lex/Lex prime can break the game when modded correctly and used with skill.

 

57 minutes ago, Cortanis said:

Yes, movement 2.0 utterly breaks the game. A great example of seeing that in action is going to the void and finding any of the old treasure rooms. Almost all of them are designed for the original movement system and it shows greatly.

 

58 minutes ago, Cortanis said:

It does not however break combat as far as weapons are concerned. That's an entirely different issue as far as balance goes in the game.

Those are literally the quotes and examples I gave of how the movement system breaks the game and even stipulate about the combat. Damage values and math have changed for new additions to the game, but at the core the gameplay hasn't really changed all that much. You can still get away with not even playing most, if not all, of the newer mission types and keep pretty exclusive to the old game set. 

If we want to talk core changes that aren't strait addition to the game, fine. We do have some like boss changes. Those however are needed as the bosses were little more than placeholders with elevated stats before. Case in point, Vor as the old teleporting melee unit. Getting proper bosses rather than lazy placeholders isn't bad at all and actually makes gameplay better.

[Teloch]

10 minutes ago, Caelward said:

Yeah, but perhaps for the next story climax, they could give some proper build-up.

DE has already expressed regret that they didn't handle TWW as well as they could/should have.

I hope they give things the proper time and attention without digging themselves a very impressive hole next time.

 

Nah. Thank you but I'm personally more drawn by immersion than story climaxes. If I'd like to enjoy a defined story, I would read a book or look some series. Besides, to call something a "story climax" one needs to have an overall "plain" story progression, which is obviously lacking in WF once events stopped being a thing. For me, I "buried" DE as storytellers long time ago.  

On another note, "the second dream" won't likely happen for the third time (unless they do manage to come up with an absolutely mind-blowing explanation of what are warframes). 

[Caelward]

42 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Nah. Thank you but I'm personally more drawn by immersion than story climaxes. If I'd like to enjoy a defined story, I would read a book or look some series. Besides, to call something a "story climax" one needs to have an overall "plain" story progression, which is obviously lacking in WF once events stopped being a thing. For me, I "buried" DE as storytellers long time ago.  

On another note, "the second dream" won't likely happen for the third time (unless they do manage to come up with an absolutely mind-blowing explanation of what are warframes). 

Well on the aspect of Immersion, Warframe never did that for me anyways. What always got me was the gameplay itself, not the mystery behind it.

Sorry to hear they lost it for you though. It always sucks when someone goes and spoils the mood when you're enjoying a thing.

[-N7-Leonhart]

2 hours ago, Krion112 said:

-snip-

No, this is not about "identity" or whatever. You are burned out. Not every game is for everyone to play forever, so if you can't like it anymore then don't go around trying to find outside justifications for it.

The problem lies only with yourself. Accept that and stay away from Warframe and play something else. If the desire will ever come back, then you could say it was just a period for you.

[SethCypher]

I don't know if anyone sees it like I do or agrees with me, but I actually continue to play Warframe because it has no solid identity that it sticks with permanently. That might not have been the case when I first got into the game a couple years ago, but its certainly the reason why I continue to support the game.

What I mean by this is that the game constantly changes, for better or worse is debatable.

Edited January 10, 2017 by SethCypher

[Krion112]

12 hours ago, Caelward said:

-snip-

What you enjoy is a novelty, and not to speak for you, but in my experience and observation of other players, it's not one that actually brings about any satisfaction. If it did, the player-base would not be asking for the increases in challenge and demanding balance passes to certain weapons and equipment all the time.

It's just different, but not different in a way that it's a defining trait, it's literally been ripped from the trend of enhanced mobility that's been going on as of late, a trend I want to note is dying because truly the players who dealt with it are just absolutely not satisfied by it.

In my experience, the Warframe of yesterday, while not perfect, still was more of its own thing than it was of trying to be anything else, and featured more of an actually controlled and balanced game-design, with a narrative presentation and characteristics that made sense and only told me what I needed to know.

New Warframe is flashy, overly bold, faster paced, and is literally nothing like old Warframe except that they share a common universe, common developer, and common genre. This is precisely what Command & Conquer, Halo, CoD, and other similarly well known game series attempted and have paid the price for; they were too lost in their own attempts to build the game to appeal to larger audiences that they completely threw it in the face of those who enjoyed the original formula.

I want to make the disclaimer of saying that I don't necessarily think new Warframe is bad, it's just not the game that hooked me years ago, and the more I think about it, the more I scour the depths of the game-design that it is built upon, I only solidify that thought even more. And while not necessarily bad, new Warframe definitely does not hold an identity of its own anymore, and while in a way that's it's own identity, that's the identity it will share with the likes of Halo 5, Infinite Warfare, and so on.

Sorry if I got a bit off on another explanation. All I can say is I truly don't think you enjoy it either. If ever you feel like complaining about game-balance, well, you prove that you don't. But that's on you to think about yourself. You can like it all you want, but if you ever get the slight feeling of hollowness, of 'there's nothing to do', or likewise, it's because you secretly no. If none of that occurs, you're just one of those people who can enjoy a game in any state, as long it's not completely a mess.

 

11 hours ago, Cortanis said:

The game is still at its core a grind fest and gameplay is still dealing with masses of enemies while looking for loot. That has not changed. Parkour doesn't break the combat at all. In fact, weapons break it more so than anything. I'm not even talking about the simulor grade weapons, but even old school weapons like Lex/Lex prime can break the game when modded correctly and used with skill.

That's like saying Halo 5 is still an arena shooter, but does that still mean it uses the Halo game formula? That's like saying Command & Conquer 4 is still a real-time strategy game, but does that still mean it uses the C&C Formula?

The answer to the both of those is no. If you go play those games and then compare them to the games that preceded them, you realize they are entirely different games from their predecessors.

Parkour 2.0 does break combat, Parkour 1.0 did not. in fact it's the reason why the majority of weapons could be considered over and under-powered. Balance matrix dictates that Shotgun counters Pistol, Pistol counters Sniper, Sniper counters Shotgun, and if anything disrupts that without a counter of its own, then you have officially broken the game formula. Parkour 2.0's Bullet Jump allows you to, completely without restriction, mobilize in 3-D space faster and more efficiently than any other movement. This breaks weapon balance, because if you're moving so fast with Bullet Jump, snipers and projectiles weapons can't properly aim and deal with the opposition. The Shotgun can suddenly counter the Sniper, and everything breaks.

Small implementations like that have big impacts on game balance. Why do you think bigger game companies are more stingy to make changes? Because they understand the risk involved with it.

Game-Design is not some segmented worm that picks and chooses what sections are balanced individually, and then just throws them all together. Game-Design is a sandbox, with all these different rules, orders, and interactions attempting to present a fair and just set of interactive medium that must be engaged with to give the player a feeling they wish to obtain. Every system is forced to interlock with every other system, there is no separation of design. You change how the player moves, you have to change weapons and enemies. You change what the player can do, and you have to change the challenge of the game to match. No one system can be changed without altering another, no matter how hard you try they will always be stuck together like that.

 

11 hours ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

No, this is not about "identity" or whatever. You are burned out. Not every game is for everyone to play forever, so if you can't like it anymore then don't go around trying to find outside justifications for it.

The problem lies only with yourself. Accept that and stay away from Warframe and play something else. If the desire will ever come back, then you could say it was just a period for you.

Absolutely, this is without doubt a very dismissive point of view. In fact it doesn't promote discussion, which I believe is against the Forum Code of Conduct.

You can't just claim no; you have to argue me, otherwise your post is absolutely needless.

And no, I'm not burnt out. I don't play Warframe consistently enough to, and truly if I were burned out, wouldn't I be more discussing something more related to burn out, like Grinding? Notice how that isn't even a point.

 

3 hours ago, SethCypher said:

I don't know if anyone sees it like I do or agrees with me, but I actually continue to play Warframe because it has no solid identity that it sticks with permanently. That might not have been the case when I first got into the game a couple years ago, but its certainly the reason why I continue to support the game.

What I mean by this is that the game constantly changes, for better or worse is debatable.

More power to you. I'd only argue what it's become is worse is because:

• First, it's replaced all the elements of the game that made it enjoyable for me.
• Second, it's trying desparately to hold onto its original formula, but not very well, to the point its causing other systems to clash together and create a disillusioned mess of game-design, however it's still redeemable to go full forward with the change, but it's not longer redeemable to go back.

But, I mean the changes in Warframe still result in a fun game, just not one that appeals to me, or players like me.

[Caelward]

What I may enjoy may be a 'novelty'. What enjoy may be 'cheap thrills' flash and dazzle em story.

I guess I'll just have to appreciate that unlike you guys, I'm 4 years in and still seem to actually be having fun.

I'm gonna go play Warframe. You guys have fun doin what you have to do. :)

Edited January 10, 2017 by Caelward

[-N7-Leonhart]

3 hours ago, Caelward said:

What I may enjoy may be a 'novelty'. What enjoy may be 'cheap thrills' flash and dazzle em story.

I guess I'll just have to appreciate that unlike you guys, I'm 4 years in and still seem to actually be having fun.

I'm gonna go play Warframe. You guys have fun doin what you have to do. :)

This. There was no other game that made me invest 2000+ hours before. Although I did invested a few hundred in some, they got very stale after a point. 

The fact that they always change and add new stuff in this game is what kept it alive for me all this time. And I hope they keep up the formula in the future.

As long as they are daring enough, I don't think I will ever be disappointed with their changes. Small stuff like buffs and nerfs are of no consequence in comparison.

[JalakBali]

That's a very long post about how you don't like the game's lore no longer fits your head-canon.

[Rhekemi]

While I don't agree completely, I enjoyed the read and was glad you were able to put how you felt about the changes into context.

With more time (and a greater desire to go in depth) I might come back to discuss (especially about DE's storytelling techniques and focus), but right now my focus is scattershot over various projects.

I do hope it starts an actual discussion of the game's progression and story, and garners less debate--a debate and talking about whether your view is right or wrong isn't really the point and stifles discussion.

[Krion112]

12 hours ago, JalakBali said:

That's a very long post about how you don't like the game's lore no longer fits your head-canon.

I have no problem with the game's lore; I have a problem with the way it's presented.

The whole post also does not revolve around the lore or plot relevant things. I also have issues with some game elements that are novelties, which are just basically fun but not satisfactory, leading to a poorer game-design, which then the player-base goes on to complain about with all the talk over overpowered and underpowered equipment, unfair resource implementations, and mods, without identifying that some of the novelties we enjoy are actually the cause of these system's short-comings.

The overall premise is I have an issue that all of the things that made me enjoy Warframe have been removed or fundamentally altered in order to satiate newcomer players who did not enjoy Warframe for what it was, which means it has forgone its original characteristics to attract a new audience, which is something I've seen so many other games do and fail for. This doesn't mean what it has become is bad, but it does mean what it has become is not what the original game was. I'd also argue that the new design does have flaws because of this, but DE could either go full in and completely replace what it used to be, or they could revert back.

 

17 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

While I don't agree completely, I enjoyed the read and was glad you were able to put how you felt about the changes into context.

With more time (and a greater desire to go in depth) I might come back to discuss (especially about DE's storytelling techniques and focus), but right now my focus is scattershot over various projects.

I do hope it starts an actual discussion of the game's progression and story, and garners less debate--a debate and talking about whether your view is right or wrong isn't really the point and stifles discussion.

I would like to know where you disagree, and am very eager to know about how you view DE's storytelling techniques.

Unfortunately, I think it was the way I presented this post that has driven players to debate my validity. It comes in and threatens what they think makes Warframe great, but to be honest, while every player likes what Warframe has become, they're not satisfied at all by it. It's almost like it's a drug; they get a simple adrenaline rush or something playing the novelties of the game, and then when it's over they ask for more, they ask for it to get better. But it just won't.

Good games aren't designed to be fun, they're designed to be satisfying, and those are two exclusive concepts. Even right now, I'd argue Warframe is fun, but satisfying? No longer.

Anyway, I wasn't sure how to present this idea, so I just went with the one thing I know how: come in with a lot of passion, and piss people off, despite the fact that my whole objective is just to make Warframe a better game. I don't want to be put off by it, I don't want to see it fail; I know I'm no employee of DE, but I can't stand to see this game fail, especially when I know exactly what will drive it there because it's happened to so many others of my favorite games.

The issue may come from my over-generalization, but people won't read a long-drawn out, thought out, and highly detailed post, because they expect it to be concise and done; the 'instant gratification'. A contradiction, and a stubborn one at that. Get mad at me because I do elaborate, get mad at me because I generalize.

However, I don't think this is here for the players; I put this here for the devs, hence why I put it in feedback. I suppose to start this discussion among the players, we could start a new thread in General Discussion, but honestly I don't think the average player is inward-thinking enough to understand the greater meanings behind why they feel what they feel about a game, but I could be wrong.

[(PSN)KnowLedge]

It's character and identity is "perfect execution of a 'free to play' game". They keep the content rolling out. I keep dropping a little coin to keep it coming. This game remains to be beautiful graphically, decent weapon handling, and boy do they know how to dangle the carrot.......Keep it up DE!

 

 

RIP my wallet

Edited January 11, 2017 by (PS4)KnowLedge

[Omnipower]

24 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

-snip-

I think i understand where you coming from but to fix everything to revert everything back to that time you enjoyed would mean removing a lot of features and pretty much hurt the game drastically(not sure if you said anything about this already in a previous post only read your initial one) But reading that makes me understand what felt off with me now im having fun but not being satisfied. It would be nice if DE could find a way to revert the game to make all the enemy encounters feel meaningful but like i previously stated that would break the game at least all the ways i can think of its all in their hands.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Omnipower