Do not force Archwing onto your players by adding them to Sorties. [Devstream #86 feedback]

[BlackCoMerc]

On 1/20/2017 at 5:11 PM, Multicom-EN- said:

Sheldon mentioned it would/could appear in Sorties in the future. 

Why force it onto 90% of your players (rough number) that doesn't want to play it?

---

Perhaps make a separate Sortie dedicated to Archwing mode with the same rewards as the regular Sortie offer.

For those who like Archwing can choose to either play Archwing Sortie or normal Sortie every day.

 

Just my opinion anyways. Thoughts? Ideas? Comment below, and be civil please.

Someone, somewhere has two things within DE:

Lots of influence

An unwillingness to admit and fix mistakes

Hence, we still have Nullifiers, Archwing and Focus/Operator modes. All of which, I'm pretty sure, came from the same corner office.

At this point the best statement to make, can be made by clicking Play on something else in your undoubtedly sizable Steam Library.

[BlackCoMerc]

20 hours ago, (Xbox One)Skode said:

Archwing is part of the game, it should be in sorties. Bypassing content just because it's too hard for you or don't like it is the absolute worse thing a dev team can do - where does it end? Sorties are meant to be late game... You telling me your late game but can't handle late game archwing?

We don't bypass Archwing because it's hard. We bypass it because it is, from a technical standpoint, garbage. Shoddy controls, motion sickness, poor animations and unexciting abilities.

Add to that it is wholly unrewarding.

[RageManT]

Yeah, I can somewhat see what you're saying, but I think if they were going to add it in the sortie, they'll fix some of the already existing problems with Archwing and then add it. I know they mentioned motion sickness and camera issuses with Archwing. Although I don't suffer from motion sickness and I enjoy the current camera system as it is, I wouldn't mind any needed changes with Archwing. I personally don't play Archwing as much, so it'd be kind of cool to have it in the sortie because I play the sorites daily. They'll just need to scale down the enemies because I've played high level Archwing missions and they're cancer, xD

[Fast_98]

Is nobody gonna pull up that chart DE released?

The one that listed the type of missions players did, if I remember correctly didn't archwing have less then 7 percent?

That a pretty valid reason to not add archwing to sorties due to how small it community is compared to everyother mission type.

[toafarmer]

I think the main purpose of sorties is making people try out new things. Adding AW would be great, specially if that means having a good look at AW system, adding new mods, more archwings, more weapons and so on. But since this is not a prime skin, don't worry. It will take years.

[NeonNemesis]

The only way I would agree with this would be if the reverted the garbage changes that came with Specters of Fail.

High level enemies with garbage controls that makes wonder where the heck you are all the time?

 

Sorry NO! ABSOLUTELY NO!!!

[TalonBlue]

19 hours ago, Chipputer said:

I don't see a founder's badge on your profile so you literally have zero right to say this.

Anybody who ever opened their wallet to support this game does have right to. Founder or no. Why should it matter when they did? This game was in early access for years. And DE hid behind the 'beta' defense for years whenever anyone questioned anything in this game. The founders are not solely responsible for this game continuing to be, it's every paying customer. So I when I ask for a better product, it becaue I hold DE to the same standards any other developer should be because that how you earn someone's business.

[Methanoid]

On 20/01/2017 at 10:39 PM, KamishirasawaKeine said:

Only 5 wings, even including the prime version? √

Enemies with invincible front shield and missile shenanigans? √

Broken navigation that requires a New-Type to operate? √

Undying Amesha spam? √

Missing every single loot? √

 

Maybe we'll have to wait a few years before this thing reaches the standard of a regular mission.

i just wish in the meantime that alerts for archwing missions mentioned the word "Archwing", so that i dont waste time joining them only to see the whole team /quit, including me.

Pure archwing are bad enough but the likes of todays final spy sortie mission where you have to use the archwing underwater, i basically just /quit here as well, i mean i dont even have my archwing levelled 1/2 way, nor do i want to, so i pretty much got anhialated, then got lost/stuck and thought, meh, cant be bothered, ill just wait for tomorrow.

[Methanoid]

7 hours ago, toafarmer said:

I think the main purpose of sorties is making people try out new things. Adding AW would be great, specially if that means having a good look at AW system, adding new mods, more archwings, more weapons and so on. But since this is not a prime skin, don't worry. It will take years.

the main purpose of sorties is as always with all new content to delay you as much as possible from aquiring all the "cool new stuff" instantly, thats why you have what we have now, a lottery within a lottery.

lets be honest here, 99% of ppl pretty much just want rivens at a guess, instead you have a lottery to determine if you even get one, then if your amazingly lucky and do get a riven its a new lottery for what weapon type you get, then theres the "challenge" of unlocking it (not more delays at all really), then when you complete the challenge its on to lottery number 3 to see what weapon it applies too (probably one you dont have, dont need and never want), then its lottery number 4 to see what default stats are on it and if it was for a weapon your actually interested in, its off to do kuva farming (yay delays again using a new resource type you dont have stockpiled), kuva ofc required to do lottery number 5 if the stats arent to your liking, repeat lottery 5 until you get the stats you are finally after.

/fun-content

And people wonder why theres such a large qty of upset/disgruntled players.
 

Edited January 23, 2017 by Methanoid

[CandyDragon]

On 1/20/2017 at 4:34 PM, JSharpie said:

I enjoy archwing, and I'm pretty good at it. In what way are the controls bad?

Archwing currently feels flawed in a number of ways. Most of this is due to its lack of popularity and polish pushing players away, and by proxy the developers ability to focus on it for any substantial return.  

There are only 3 reasonably viable flex weapons for archwing: Grattler (loses range but does good aoe damage)  Imperator/imperator vandal (hitscan monster machinegun that is suitable for all modes), and Velocitus (snipercannon that gets is use on formorian and Golem fight). 

Melee weapons are so similar in performance that I have yet to see a reason to use them beyond the stylish effect of swinging and homing in. The standard melee build works on any of the weapons and this can come down to user preference. 

The new healing archwing trivializes everything, you can set up to be immortal. Not knocking players that like it, but it is currently outclassing everything else save for aoe wing which is good for defense.  The odanata archwing is undertuned and only offers the shield for harder content as a perk.  The aoe archwing with the tactical nuke aoe also decent, strong on defense and mobile defense maps. The stealth archwings drone feature doesn't work well and only really has use for item farming with its vacuum ability. 

This is not variety, the other weapons are straight downgrades and punish the player for trying to break the mold of weapons (lower range, abysmal dps, just try using the dual decurions)

Movement and mechanics punish the players for errant geometry and a lack of smoothing in the tilesets themselves.  The movement and controls encourage speed, the level layouts punish it. Even with the reduced collisons and bouncing, they'd be better off smoothing out corridors and preventing you from getting caught on the 1.2 trillion pipes. The 3d movement space they've recently added does not feel all that great in my experience, too easy to get disoriented, no way to quickly "right" yourself. Feels like a rail shooter off the rails. 

Controls do not match the environment they are expected to be played in. Which in most games is considered bad. 

 

Tl;DR: personal preference aside, it is in an extremely rough state and suffers from being caught between design ideas for the game. 

Edited January 23, 2017 by Nariala

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

On 20/01/2017 at 10:11 PM, Multicom-EN- said:

Sheldon mentioned it would/could appear in Sorties in the future. 

Why force it onto 90% of your players (rough number) that doesn't want to play it?

---

Perhaps make a separate Sortie dedicated to Archwing mode with the same rewards as the regular Sortie offer.

For those who like Archwing can choose to either play Archwing Sortie or normal Sortie every day.

 

Just my opinion anyways. Thoughts? Ideas? Comment below, and be civil please.

 

I concur with you, I'm not a fan of arch-wing and it shouldn't be compelled on players that don't want it, most players like it but many don't, but I like the idea you've given having separate mode with the same rewards, maybe doing 1 locks the other one, so you can't redo sortie again to earn a different reward. 

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

8 hours ago, Methanoid said:

lets be honest here, 99% of ppl pretty much just want rivens at a guess

Not really, many players may seek LC or focus lens, doesn't mean everyone wants riven mods, but by a percentage yeah, due to selling them and earning easy platinum.

[Helljack84]

On 20.1.2017 at 11:21 PM, JesterTheNight said:

AW in sorties was requested by players and with AW being a core part of the game (NOT secondary like PvP) it only makes sense that it's introduced in sorties.

LOVE that AW will get more playtime, finally the vocal minority that doesn't like AW can just shut it and avoid doing AW content (or suck it up and do sorties with AW). Did AW stop people from farming the Jordas Verdict raid? No, it didn't. AW is FINE, just not fleshed out.

Of course they have to fix the new movement system for AW before putting it in sorties, it's just a mess and nearly unplayable in tight spaces.

It was requested like once? Very small topic with like 5 upvotes, seemed like a lot of feedback from the "vast majority" of AW lovers you imply there is.

People do raids for arcanes not fun.

But I agree on the parts where you say how messy AW movement is. 

Also the scaling, roughly half the missions and the amount of cheese and broken mechanics.

[JesterTheNight]

23 minutes ago, Helljack84 said:

It was requested like once? Very small topic with like 5 upvotes, seemed like a lot of feedback from the "vast majority" of AW lovers you imply there is.

People do raids for arcanes not fun.

But I agree on the parts where you say how messy AW movement is. 

Also the scaling, roughly half the missions and the amount of cheese and broken mechanics.

No, I'm not implying there's a "vast majority" of anything, DE said that the registered users on the forum are roughly only 1% of all registered users (if I remember the % right), so that makes anything a "minority" when discussed on forums. That being said the AW haters on here are pretty vocal.

And people do sorties for the same reason (but both raids and sorties can be fun), cause there's a reward that incentivates people to engage in such content, something that AW missions lack.

All in all, as devs said, AW in sorties won't be introduced in sorties before it gets fixed, so there's only good things to gain here (AW fixed, people who like AW get to play it for a good reason and AW stuff might get a balance check).

Edited January 23, 2017 by JesterTheNight

[(XBOX)DeluxeKnight831]

Just now, JesterTheNight said:

No, I'm not implying there's a "vast majority" of anything, DE said that the registered users on the forum are roughly only 1% of all registered users (if I remember the % right), so that makes anything a "minority" when discussed on forums. That being said the AW haters on here are pretty vocal.

And people do sorties for the same reason (but both raids and sorties can be fun), cause there's a reward that incentivates people to engage in such content, something that AW missions lack.

All in all, as devs said, AW in sorties won't be introduced in sorties before it gets fixed, so there's only good things to gain here (AW fixed, people who like AW get to play it for a good reason and AW stuff might get a balance check).

archwing and conclave are the two least popular game modes. its even harder to find an archwing pug than it is to find a conclave match . js

[JesterTheNight]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)DeluxeKnight831 said:

archwing and conclave are the two least popular game modes. its even harder to find an archwing pug than it is to find a conclave match . js

Yes, it has already been discussed. No rewards -> no players. When you're done ranking AW stuff for MR, you're done with AW for good, again, cause there's no incentive for doing so (aside from fun if you like it).

Conclave is, in my opinion, worse than AW (cause I don't enjoy the PvP in this game), but it gets played cause it has exclusive rewards (such as 3 armor sets, lots of weapon skins and a syandana).

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)DeluxeKnight831 said:

archwing and conclave are the two least popular game modes. its even harder to find an archwing pug than it is to find a conclave match . js

Even in chat, trying to find players to do arch-wing with, 0 response.

[Skaleek]

Love AW, wish they'd fix AW nodes having terrible rewards.

[toafarmer]

7 hours ago, Nariala said:

Archwing currently feels flawed in a number of ways. Most of this is due to its lack of popularity and polish pushing players away, and by proxy the developers ability to focus on it for any substantial return.  

There are only 3 reasonably viable flex weapons for archwing: Grattler (loses range but does good aoe damage)  Imperator/imperator vandal (hitscan monster machinegun that is suitable for all modes), and Velocitus (snipercannon that gets is use on formorian and Golem fight). 

Melee weapons are so similar in performance that I have yet to see a reason to use them beyond the stylish effect of swinging and homing in. The standard melee build works on any of the weapons and this can come down to user preference. 

The new healing archwing trivializes everything, you can set up to be immortal. Not knocking players that like it, but it is currently outclassing everything else save for aoe wing which is good for defense.  The odanata archwing is undertuned and only offers the shield for harder content as a perk.  The aoe archwing with the tactical nuke aoe also decent, strong on defense and mobile defense maps. The stealth archwings drone feature doesn't work well and only really has use for item farming with its vacuum ability. 

This is not variety, the other weapons are straight downgrades and punish the player for trying to break the mold of weapons (lower range, abysmal dps, just try using the dual decurions)

Movement and mechanics punish the players for errant geometry and a lack of smoothing in the tilesets themselves.  The movement and controls encourage speed, the level layouts punish it. Even with the reduced collisons and bouncing, they'd be better off smoothing out corridors and preventing you from getting caught on the 1.2 trillion pipes. The 3d movement space they've recently added does not feel all that great in my experience, too easy to get disoriented, no way to quickly "right" yourself. Feels like a rail shooter off the rails. 

Controls do not match the environment they are expected to be played in. Which in most games is considered bad. 

 

Tl;DR: personal preference aside, it is in an extremely rough state and suffers from being caught between design ideas for the game. 

Actually you should try to play archwing more often. One of the best weapons is Fluctus, which is pretty much like Excalibur 4, with awesome damage output and range. Considering the melees, the weapons are very different. My personal favorite is Centaur, due to its good range and high damage. Also Amesha ("the healing archwing") is good, but Itzal is way more fun and does great damage, in addition to a good cc (modded 3) and great survivability if you know when to get invisible.

I agree that there is a lack of variety, specially concerning mods and weapons. The major problem is that people tend to evaluate archwing without even building properly their archwings and weapons. My Centaur has 3 formas, my itzal has one (and most archwings need 0 or 1, due to lack of mods) and my fluctus is on the 3rd, going to 4th.

Once you get used to AW movements it is pretty fun. Also it is not as dead as most people think, there are lots of people who do the corpus mobdef, the grineer interception and the pursuit.

Not saying it is your case, but most people just base ther feelings on 4 or 5 runs and eventual alerts, they never played AW seriously. I would love to see AW on sorties or even better: AW exclusive sorties, rewarding new AW stuff, in addition to the possible legendary core and frustration fillers (endo and so).

[Methanoid]

6 hours ago, JesterTheNight said:

Yes, it has already been discussed. No rewards -> no players. When you're done ranking AW stuff for MR, you're done with AW for good, again, cause there's no incentive for doing so (aside from fun if you like it).

Conclave is, in my opinion, worse than AW (cause I don't enjoy the PvP in this game), but it gets played cause it has exclusive rewards (such as 3 armor sets, lots of weapon skins and a syandana).

In my case i didnt even rank up AW, i think im barely half way, i just /quit at every opportunity, its just not worth it, then to make matters worse they place archwing construction parts in multiple syndicates, further increasing my view that i just shouldnt bother, its simply not worth it on any level.

The only time i end up in AW is when i see an alert that ends up being archwing which i did not realise because its not mentioned in the alert, you join the game only to see the whole team /quit, which i also do seconds after as well, thats how popular archwign is, doesnt matter if it had soem kickass rewards in it i still wouldnt bother.

[Seulb]

Yes give in to the hate!... To be more serious I look forward to the inclusion of AW in Sortie and the fixes and changes they mentioned for AW.