Devstream 86 Overview

[Trichouette]

Just now, Domesticon said:

Using that logic, what about the players who farmed/bought the Secura Lecta? Sure aren't "honoring" the players who got that.

That's what i'm saying, saying "we won't change that in honour of the players who farmed for it" doesn't make any sense, especially in a beta game.

[Domesticon]

Just now, Trichouette said:

That's what i'm saying, saying "we won't change that in honour of the players who farmed for it" doesn't make any sense, especially in a beta game.

Yeah, not disagreeing with you, trying to add to your point. That's really part of why this stinks, like I said, their actions don't line up with what they're saying and it's all starting to smell like manure. I'd rather they be upfront with us about why they're being like this rather than try to, quite honestly, hide behind other players. Because that is exactly what they are doing. They're not saying "Oh, we don't want to change it because of this or that." They are saying "We don't want to change it because that would spite those other people over there, blame them for actually farming it/spending all their resources, not us!" But they're totally fine doing exactly that to the people who have gotten the Secura Lecta. I don't like it. And it looks bad for DE, not because of the decision of the resources at this point, but because they're being cowards about it. They're not owning up and saying "This is how it is, deal with it." They're making excuses, hiding, not really owning up to it. Which is troubling to say the least.

[[DE]Taylor]

3 hours ago, bl4ckhunter said:

Political answer at it's finest, not only you did not answer his question at all, as the hema research being a requirement for some future weapon and future weapons having research costs in line with the hema are not connected issues but you've also avoided committing to not actually make research costs this high in the future as "being cognizant" of something doesn't imply that you won't do it all the same as far as my understanding of english goes even without taking into account that you've promised that very same thing multiple times and done it again and again regardless.

Oh man, that was honestly an error on my point. I'm so sorry if it seemed like I was trying to give a non-answer; that's what I get for sleepily skimming threads.

The Devs have said that they do not want to go this extreme in terms of research requirements. They want clan tech to be more challenging to obtain, but Steve acknowledged that this might have been too steep of a jump this Devstream.

As for the Hema being a requirement for other weapons, I unfortunately do not have an official answer to give you. But the team is aware of your guys' sentiments and they would be taken into consideration for a decision like that.

A bit of a non-answer, but I'm not the person who gets to make promises. Sorry!

[HyokaChan]

17 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

But the team is aware of your guys' sentiments and they would be taken into consideration for a decision like that.

With the situation as it is now with Hema and other things, I highly doubt this is the case. If not, they are aware and decide not to agree with the players.

This is the image currently being shown/communicated to me and the other players I know, which isn't many, but still.

Edited January 22, 2017 by HyokaChan

[Xekrin]

53 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Oh man, that was honestly an error on my point. I'm so sorry if it seemed like I was trying to give a non-answer; that's what I get for sleepily skimming threads.

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to respond, multiple times.  There are some areas of concern, albeit smaller than the Hema Crisis, that have gone unanswered for a long time.  Responding on a Saturday just makes it more special.

So Thanks and have a great rest of weekend.  We'll be sure to bombard Steve with this on his stream tomorrow anyway.  

[Loswaith]

3 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

The Devs have said that they do not want to go this extreme in terms of research requirements. They want clan tech to be more challenging to obtain, but Steve acknowledged that this might have been too steep of a jump this Devstream.

The issue here is both can be achieved, for example, lowering the base cost to about 2000, sure that is a lot and would still require clans to work together but also show that the concerns of the players are being seen and addressed.  

Likewise 2000 is about what you would expect for a clan with about 40% active players, each contributing 500 samples (one full squad per clan tier multiplier is not unreasonable).  While not being well out of reach for clans with a smaller active player base, rather than expecting clans to simply have 100% player base with access to gaining mutagen samples.

Those clans with smaller player active player base (below the 30%-40% I mean) do expect to have to do a bit more work to get stuff but not so much work as if they had a completely full clan (which would more likely have upgraded into the next tier).

Edited January 22, 2017 by Loswaith

[mrecentric]

7 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

But the team is aware of your guys' sentiments and they would be taken into consideration for a decision like that.

Based on many years of historical evidence it seems likely they will ignore the pleas.

Edited January 22, 2017 by mrecentric

[Trichouette]

12 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

-snip-

I guess we won't have any comment from DE on "why do you not change the hema cost while using the few players who farmed it as an excuse but you changed plenty of stuff (like looting archwing parts) without caring about ALL the players who farmed them ?"

Edited January 22, 2017 by Trichouette

[Zedasfogueiras]

I dont think they know how damaging this research is being for their reputation... industry people usually say "a client that complains and have his problem solved is a client that is likely to come back" this is basic for control quallity of services and products... Maybe this doesnt apply to video games... I dont know, but I know that DE isnt standing on a good spot...

[Danjal777]

I did the Hema research.  As a player that has, I can safely say I don't mind even in the slightest if they reduce the costs.  I got it because of mastery and for completion's sake.  I have no attachment to the idea that I deserve it to stay the way it is.  Reduce the grind. I know there was concern that the Hema would break the game, but who is using it?  There is no reason for these insane costs.

[Basqui]

Being a single tenno active in my own ghost clan (although some clan members come and go) wasn't a problem in the past because the research requirements weren't that much of a hassle to me, and then the hema came. I still need about 3.8k mutagen samples, and I think i might be able to get that amount next year, if ever I even find the right reason to go for it.

[Trichouette]

13 minutes ago, Danjal777 said:

I did the Hema research.  As a player that has, I can safely say I don't mind even in the slightest if they reduce the costs.  I got it because of mastery and for completion's sake.  I have no attachment to the idea that I deserve it to stay the way it is.  Reduce the grind. I know there was concern that the Hema would break the game, but who is using it?  There is no reason for these insane costs.

I'm surprised to find someone who did the research and isn't defending DE for once.

Usually the players who did it are rather trying to prove us how "easy it is to do it" or telling us "stop complaining and start farming"

[Tesseract7777]

15 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Oh man, that was honestly an error on my point. I'm so sorry if it seemed like I was trying to give a non-answer; that's what I get for sleepily skimming threads.

The Devs have said that they do not want to go this extreme in terms of research requirements. They want clan tech to be more challenging to obtain, but Steve acknowledged that this might have been too steep of a jump this Devstream.

As for the Hema being a requirement for other weapons, I unfortunately do not have an official answer to give you. But the team is aware of your guys' sentiments and they would be taken into consideration for a decision like that.

A bit of a non-answer, but I'm not the person who gets to make promises. Sorry!

We already told them it was a problem when this happened with the Sibear... but the problem only got worse. With the Hema the issue was way worse. Whoever you relay all of this to needs to understand: This CANNOT happen again. 

If the team thinks clan tech needs to be more of a challenge, costs need to be raised slowly and reasonably over time, not have jumps like this. 

If weapons in general (like the Sibear) should cost more to build at first, again, the costs need to be reasonably raised slowly over time. 

The Sibear cost more cryotic if I recall, than all the rest of stuff with cryotic previously combined. This was the same issue with mutagen samples and clan tech requirement for the Hema. 

To be quite frank it feels extremely disrespectful to the players to have done such a huge jump to begin with, and the fact that it wasn't reversed speaks volumes. 

I don't buy the fact that others already did the research being a good reason. Decisions have been made like that before and scripts have been run to compensate people who already did the work. This looks more like a situation of doubling down and trying to normalize this kind of behavior. And it cannot happen again. 

Those who make these decisions need to understand that their choices have greatly damaged community trust already. If we see another weapon or clan tech with an absolutely ludicrous requirement instead of reasonable rises in research costs, the damage this time may be permanent. There may be a level of trust lost from many players that can never be regained. 

Those making decisions need to think very, very, very carefully about how they approach this in the future. 

If Steve only thinks that it was maybe, a little too high this time, then with all respect he has lost touch with how most of the players feel currently. It was way too high. Absolutely ludicrously unreasonably high. There is no downplaying it, or saying it was maybe only a bit too much. It was way too much. When one clan tech weapon is more than all others combined for a particular resource to research, with no weapons in between that rise the cost slowly, it is way, way too much. 

And if the powers that be still haven't figured that out, then we have a very serious problem on our hands. It means the gap between the community and devs is growing much larger and that isn't a good thing. 

Edit: I will be very clear here. I am not trying to get the decision to be reversed. I do not expect that to happen at this point, if for no other reason than due to how adamant Steve has been about it. But to say the decision couldn't have been reversed without hurting those who already did the research just seems untrue to me. I have seen DE run scripts to compensate people in the past, so I don't see how that is a fair reason. 

But like I said. I am not trying to get the decision changed. It is clear that is not happening. What is important is that those in charge really do take seriously just how totally not okay in any way this was. And I fear that already I have seen from the attitudes in the last devstream that they are already more dismissive of the issue. That they already seem to have this sort of suck it up attitude about doing the research anyways. And that they still think it was okay to have a weapon with such a huge gap in research between others, just that maybe it was a "bit" too much. 

And that is seriously not cool. If they do not understand this was a massive mistake, they may make a much more massive mistake by repeating this one. 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[DSkycroft]

1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

We already told them it was a problem when this happened with the Sibear... but the problem only got worse. With the Hema the issue was way worse. Whoever you relay all of this to needs to understand: This CANNOT happen again. 

If the team thinks clan tech needs to be more of a challenge, costs need to be raised slowly and reasonably over time, not have jumps like this. 

If weapons in general (like the Sibear) should cost more to build at first, again, the costs need to be reasonably raised slowly over time. 

The Sibear cost more cryotic if I recall, than all the rest of stuff with cryotic previously combined. This was the same issue with mutagen samples and clan tech requirement for the Hema. 

To be quite frank it feels extremely disrespectful to the players to have done such a huge jump to begin with, and the fact that it wasn't reversed speaks volumes. 

I don't buy the fact that others already did the research being a good reason. Decisions have been made like that before and scripts have been run to compensate people who already did the work. This looks more like a situation of doubling down and trying to normalize this kind of behavior. And it cannot happen again. 

Those who make these decisions need to understand that their choices have greatly damaged community trust already. If we see another weapon or clan tech with an absolutely ludicrous requirement instead of reasonable rises in research costs, the damage this time may be permanent. There may be a level of trust lost from many players that can never be regained. 

Those making decisions need to think very, very, very carefully about how they approach this in the future. 

If Steve only thinks that it was maybe, a little too high this time, then with all respect he has lost touch with how most of the players feel currently. It was way too high. Absolutely ludicrously unreasonably high. There is no downplaying it, or saying it was maybe only a bit too much. It was way too much. When one clan tech weapon is more than all others combined for a particular resource to research, with no weapons in between that rise the cost slowly, it is way, way too much. 

And if the powers that be still haven't figured that out, then we have a very serious problem on our hands. It means the gap between the community and devs is growing much larger and that isn't a good thing. 

Edit: I will be very clear here. I am not trying to get the decision to be reversed. I do not expect that to happen at this point, if for no other reason than due to how adamant Steve has been about it. But to say the decision couldn't have been reversed without hurting those who already did the research just seems untrue to me. I have seen DE run scripts to compensate people in the past, so I don't see how that is a fair reason. 

But like I said. I am not trying to get the decision changed. It is clear that is not happening. What is important is that those in charge really do take seriously just how totally not okay in any way this was. And I fear that already I have seen from the attitudes in the last devstream that they are already more dismissive of the issue. That they already seem to have this sort of suck it up attitude about doing the research anyways. And that they still think it was okay to have a weapon with such a huge gap in research between others, just that maybe it was a "bit" too much. 

And that is seriously not cool. If they do not understand this was a massive mistake, they may make a much more massive mistake by repeating this one. 

It'll get lowered,once the cash cow runs out of milk.

Edited January 22, 2017 by DSkycroft

[SpydrXIII]

On 1/20/2017 at 3:46 PM, KaizergidorahXi said:

Has the Mutagen Drop Rate change been implemented yet, or is that in an upcoming update?

Wait, so you guys aren't changing the drop rate? 

Sigh

Really hoping this doesn't become a constant thing with you people. I play this game with my friends, in a clan I created and funded (with upwards of 1k plat, as it was before there were good Forma drops), and my small group of friends do not have the time to play 50 hours a week to get a single weapon (That we don't even want) Just so we can get the next infested weapon. I'm sure this is a fantastic way for DE to make money, but keep in mind it's also a fantastic way to drive away players with an insane and unreasonable grindwall. Can a clan of 10 people farm this? Yes. Can a clan of friends that number from 1-6? No. I love Warframe, and I love supporting you guys, but this is not okay in the future.

Also: First, apparently. DE, you're one of the few developers that have been great at responding to player feedback and listening to your fans. So why aren't you listening now?

2

if you don't want it then this entire point has become moot.  NEXT!

[SpydrXIII]

On 1/20/2017 at 4:22 PM, KaizergidorahXi said:

By "Play with friends" I mean "play with one friend every other month because, unlike some players IE most of them who have farmed for this, we have jobs and school and other obligations". The grind is not reasonable for such a mediocre weapon.

 

it seems like everyone is complaining about the grind for a weapon they don't even want.  making the entire argument pointless.  if you don't want the weapon, stop talking about it.

[KaizergidorahXi]

15 minutes ago, SpydrXIII said:

if you don't want it then this entire point has become moot.  NEXT!

We'll need it to get the next Infested weapon, since it will likely be a requirement in the Dojo Research.

Next.

[dashashou]

18 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Oh man, that was honestly an error on my point. I'm so sorry if it seemed like I was trying to give a non-answer; that's what I get for sleepily skimming threads.

The Devs have said that they do not want to go this extreme in terms of research requirements. They want clan tech to be more challenging to obtain, but Steve acknowledged that this might have been too steep of a jump this Devstream.

As for the Hema being a requirement for other weapons, I unfortunately do not have an official answer to give you. But the team is aware of your guys' sentiments and they would be taken into consideration for a decision like that.

A bit of a non-answer, but I'm not the person who gets to make promises. Sorry!

well these extreme research  requirements which  started as a admitted mistake   now stands as a "insane grinding clan challenge " really hurt my consumer confidence in future resource requirements not being  extreme 

[Yaohru]

I'm done.

If I can't trust the devs to stick to their word then I'm sure as hell not going to invest more time and money in a 'game' that's becoming increasingly more of a grind and pathetic cash grab attempts. I don't know if it's because the team are just caring less about the community as time goes on, or if a certain Chinese overlord is exerting more and more pressure, and honestly I don't really care. The end result is the same and it's saddening. I'm not going to uninstall Warframe or delete my account or any of that crap (hell, I'll probably macro getting my login reward when my comp loads up), because I genuinely love Warframe, and I truly hope DE remove their heads from that dark and smelly space they've got them crammed up in, see some sense, and rectify this and the several other stupid, greed motivated decisions they have made.

I don't regret spending (literally) thousands of hours in game, my Lotus tattoo, or the accumulated hundreds of pounds I've spent over the years. I've bonded with friends over Warframe and honestly the amount of good memories this game vastly outnumber the memories I've made from every other game in my Steam library combined. Without giving too much info, there are reasons that make it difficult for me to get out much, and over the past few years Warframe has helped me feel less like a broken joke of a person, and more like, well, a tenno. A member of a genuinely wonderful community where I wasn't criticised or judged, and could fight alongside other's against common enemies.

I hope that whatever is causing DE to take WF in the direction it's headed gets resolved, and I can come back to the game in a year or two (or, if I'm being unreasonably optimistic, a few months) and be proud that DE always put the WF community first and foremost, even if it takes a considerable amount of persuasion. The cynical, realist side of myself says that WF is going to continue to get worse, with more outrageous research requirement costs, broken RNG nonsense and low effort content, and if that's the case I'll never play Warframe again.

As I expect that's the case, I want to say thanks DE, for all the good times and great memories, but also f**k you, for continuing to ruin my favourite game.

 

Edit: Clanmates have coaxed me into returning. They don't want to abandon Warframe, and I don't want to abandon the relationships I've forged through this game. So, for now, I'm here. DE will very likely never see another penny from me, and I've hoarded enough prime parts over the years to make enough platinum for any cosmetics I'm interested in (oh no, more dreaded stockpiles for the DE team to cry about!). I'm also leaving my evil mean pre-censored curse word in this post, as I posted it before the new ToS and I'll assume it's grandfathered in. I've no idea why in a forum for a game focused around killing to can't utter an expletive, but then DE is DE and DE make asinine decisions. At least it will make for some fun nonsense word replacements. Go stroorf yourselves DE, your greed is abhorrent.

Edited January 29, 2017 by DoctorBagPhD

[Trichouette]

47 minutes ago, SpydrXIII said:

it seems like everyone is complaining about the grind for a weapon they don't even want.  making the entire argument pointless.  if you don't want the weapon, stop talking about it.

You think that giving feedback & complaining about something we don't want is pointless and make the argument useless ? What kind of logic is that ?

I personally don't want that weapon because of how stupid the mutagen requirement is, otherwise I would want to get it simply for the collection & mastery experience.

1 minute ago, DoctorBagPhD said:

but also f**k you, for continuing to ruin my favourite game.

Your post will R.I.P because of these words (that I agree with)

Edited January 22, 2017 by Trichouette

[Sziklamester]

Many of us feel the same and why even need to be forced to do something? If they would like to achieve teamwork and active clan members then they should care a lot more for the clans and peoples overall. Literally there is nothing in dojo's but it could be a real social place for fun and for minigames, talk with others and chill if we want. "we don't have any seats" fantastic so the kneeing and sitting animation is now atleast worth for something.

The huge research costs makes the peoples more bored and tired and alienate peoples from each other. There are systems in game which halfbaked and waiting for years to be solved or at least given a direction to go.

I don't want judge the devs but they should finish something before they plan the next system then go back after months and years and begin something with the out to date and unfinished systems. 

Also need to be decided what game do oyu wish to present us a competitive one with small playerbase or a all square fun game for everyone? Skill involved or not rquired game?

There are also options for monetary part and the microtransactions could be useful if the pricetag is realistic and at least close to the real. I know the rng in every game want to achieve the players money pockets but there are limits and sometimes you just ignored these limits.

We need a fun game not a second job.

[Trichouette]

12 minutes ago, Sziklamester said:

Also need to be decided what game do oyu wish to present us a competitive one with small playerbase or a all square fun game for everyone? Skill involved or not rquired game?

That's probably the biggest problem with warframe and DE, they can't decide what to do and instead just do a bit of everything.

Should the game require skill or not ? Why do we have completely braindead stuff like banshee pressing 4 and on the other hand we have some mods and arcane that trigger in conditions like headshot or wall latch.

Should the game be horde based or should each enemy be resistant and powerful ? At low level there isn't a single unit that survive 2 hit with a skana, at higher level you can't kill anything if you don't cheese your way through it with some one shot weapons / mechanic or CC.

 

I think devs should do again what they did with conclave, remove everything and introduce it back pieces by pieces.
People won't like it, but that's the only way to fix every balance problems and unfinished features.

[Doc-Orange]

I started to write a post with some harsh words about the actual situation, the lack of respect for their playerbase and so on. I deleted it because in the meanwhile I'm tired of the discussions.

Today is the first time for a long time, I didn't finish even the Sorties. 3rd mission Uranus Spy is also bad design (for me) but in former times I would have tried it until I succed but now I'm asking "Why should I do something when it's not fun".

This is not a result of overplaying the game. I still had so many objectives. Its because there is only a small amount of sympathy left.

I will not leave the game. I'll only reduce the time and take "away my emotion". Its not a kind of emotion anymore - its like a business relation. This was different before. To be honest I think this was my mistake. I thought that the game and the company is different.

 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Doc-Orange

[SpaceSheepie]

DE, why do you keep lying to us? :( Disappointed. Trust all but gone. Won't leave but highly less enthusiastic about game now.

Was trying to get boyfriend into it, shan't waste his time. Would make longer post, but don't see the point, energy sapped and we're not being listened to anyway...

Edited January 23, 2017 by SpaceSheepie

[Loswaith]

7 hours ago, SpydrXIII said:

it seems like everyone is complaining about the grind for a weapon they don't even want.  making the entire argument pointless.  if you don't want the weapon, stop talking about it.

You can still see something is good or bad for the game even if you don't want it yourself.  Thus make comments to the effect.  By your comments logic anyone that has the Hema cant make a comment because they don't want it anymore (because they actually have it).

The game isn't about any one individual, it is about the Warframe community as a whole.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Loswaith