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Something is wrong with the sortie mission generation


Shockwave-
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1 hour ago, Jfalz said:

+1 would love another way to obtain arcanes!

+2 on this. 

I think I saw someone else suggest the "Common" arcanes being thrown in the reward pool.  This again, would be nice for the early ish players to get into the arcane game.

Getting the extra revive or 2 is nice, and it gets them into some more custom tailored builds around them.  Makes another goal for players to stride toward, getting a x10 arcane set.  

:)

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On 21/1/2017 at 6:38 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

I'd appreciate any constructive notes you can offer - is there anything in the Sorties at all you consider not awful? I've played them almost daily and I find I'm happiest when I get a Riven or 4K Endo. Where would you rank your most favourite to least favourite?

@[DE]Rebecca

I hope my personal view may shed some light on why veteran players are displeased with the current sortie rewards.

After the rework from seasons to the current system I've stopped regularly doing sorties. It feels like a poor time investment. If you get endo you could've gotten said endo faster through other means. If you get a normal lens you could've gotten the ~10p it takes to buy one faster through other means. This idea also goes for potatoes and such. Boosters dont do anything if you buy prime accesories. Then there's riven mods. It's the most exciting thing in there, I love the systems, but ultimately I end up wasting my time the vast majority of the time on a veiled one because it's for one of the 150+ weapons that arent the ones I like. Then there's the greater lenses. :thumbup:Greater lenses feel worth it, don't care which one. Adding in the legendary core which is obviously good there's 5.18% chance the sorties are worth the time spent. No thanks.  

When sorties gave weapon parts that was the main draw. I felt accomplished having farmed the weapon myself without trading for the parts. I also felt like my sortie rewards improved the more often I did sorties. Everytime you got a lens you felt like you'd still gotten somewhere, because now the chance of getting that last wraith/vandal part had increased a little bit. When you'd gotten all the lenses, your odds where pretty good. It also helped that you couldn't farm the endo faster elsewhere yet, so 2k endo felt worthwhile.

I want some sort of progression system. Something where, no matter how S#&$ty my reward is, completing a day of sorties brings me a little closer an eventual reward. Just give me a bar or something. Have it fill a little bit everyday, give me a reward and then reset. As long as I can't get said reward for a penny because everybody else already has too many. Or farm said reward elsewhere faster.

Edited by Senguash
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On 1/22/2017 at 1:38 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

I'd appreciate any constructive notes you can offer - is there anything in the Sorties at all you consider not awful? I've played them almost daily and I find I'm happiest when I get a Riven or 4K Endo. Where would you rank your most favourite to least favourite?

@[DE]Rebecca

First off, I'd like to thank you for remaining so positive despite all the hostility, salt, and vitriol that's being spewed all over almost on a daily basis regardless of which medium you're visiting. I may be exaggerating about the above, but I can say for sure that I admire your patience, understanding, and willingness to listen to diverse opinions.

I've grouped some unnecessary paragraphs under spoilers as I have a tendency to be verbose and beat around the bush, so pardon me if this is way longer than it ought to be.

Context (shown below):

Spoiler

To set the context for my two cents, I'm a long-term player with over 2600 hours of in-mission time and more than a thousand hours outside of mission (4000 hours total). I have thus far collected every single PVE mod (sans Sovereign Outcast), participated in every event since Open Beta, attained the absolute maximum Mastery available (excluding Founder gear, Lato and Braton Vandal). I think it's safe to say I can be considered a veteran at this game, at least in the PVE context.

My opinion echoes that of Senguash above: Sortie rewards do not justify the time spent for veteran players.

Time spent: On average, sorties can take from 15 minutes to 45 minutes, depending on how many of the missions are of the endless variant. Typically, Defense is the longest, followed by Interception, and then Survival. Most other mission types (Capture, Exterminate, Rescue, Spy, Hijack) can be speedrunned. On a bad day, two endless mission types will appear in the 3-mission pool, and result in a longer than average completion time.

(Details about time spent playing sorties in spoilers below)

Spoiler

Before the release of Rivens, there were some days where I'd skip sorties entirely if a endless mission type showed up simply because I didn't feel it was worth the time to get rewards I already had. Back then, these rewards were fusion cores, event weapon parts, lenses, and the other rare rewards which have little to no value to me whatsoever.

Since TWW, I've played Sorties daily, and have received about 7-8 rifle riven mods (on one occasion, 3 in a row). I've been fairly lucky, I acquired rivens for meta weapons like the Soma, Zarr, SImulor, Vectis, Supra, Quanta (?). I've also received rivens for the Stinger (twice), Mutalist Quanta, and other weapons I've completely forgotten about because they're just not good enough or interesting to be memorable.

Post secondary and shotgun rivens, I've obtained one secondary riven for the Marelok and one rifle riven for the Penta. The remainder of my rewards have been lenses, Endo, 1 or 2 credit boosters, 1 exilus adapter, 2 fully-built formas, and a potato blueprint.

I have never received a Legendary Core.

Rewards: As of now, the only thing Sorties have to offer me that I have a need for or can't acquire anywhere else are Riven Mods. If I'm forced to come up with a list:

Most to Least Favourite, in order: 1) Riven, 2) Leg. Core, 3) 4K Endo, 4) 2K Endo, 5) [Forma, Potatoes, Exilus Adapter, Booster all bundled together], and 6) Lenses

(I'll attempt to offer an alternative perspective in spoilers below)

Spoiler

I'm sure the order of this list will be much different to someone who hasn't invested so much time in the game, or can't afford the luxury of time I currently possess. For someone who does not have a A) stockpile of potatoes, B) forma blueprints from the old tiered-key void missions, and C) hasn't already acquired lenses to place on his favourite weapons, it is only natural that acquiring something that he/she doesn't already own would mean that item 5 and 6 above would place higher on the list.

In particular, I especially despise Greater Lenses being in Sortie rewards. I now have 6 spare Greater Lenses sitting in my inventory, and thats after using 1 or 2 on some of my more-oft used equipment.

(Why lenses are bad as sortie rewards, especially greater lenses)

Spoiler

To the discerning player, lenses are not something that are used up quickly; you only use them when you're sure you want to commit it on a piece of gear and that you're going to be making use of it. The trouble comes when you've already placed lenses on said pieces of equipment and have no other reason to use anymore lenses. Focus farming would just be a matter of taking your favourite warframe/weapon and running affinity grinds with it (or just playing the game normally).

I have maxed out all the relevant skills in all the focus schools (except Unairu, since it's as useless as the Panthera on Sorties because there's no effective ability inside, and Madurai, which doesn't offer as much utility as the other schools do); should there ever be a need for me to revisit these schools, I simply take whatever frame I've installed the correct lens on and run it again. There hasn't been a need since as focus is still waiting for a rework.

I do admit that I have been rather overboard with my focus farming, from September last year I have been accumulating the maximum 100k focus cap almost daily until the end of 2016. This would explain why I no longer have a pressing need for any focus points.

The point stands that lenses aren't a reward one can look forward to getting again and again, they are a ONE-TIME or FEW-TIMES use. This is compounded by the fact that Greater lenses aren't even tradable, forcing players to either equip them on equipment they don't use often, sell it for 5000 credits, or leave it rotting in inventory awaiting a time when they'll finally see the light of day for a more meaningful purpose.

Potatoes, Forma, Exilus Adapters and Endo, on the other hand, are things that are nice to acquire from time to time as they are things that we know we can have a use for, even if it isn't immediate. I won't argue against the 3-day booster as it would probably serve as as nice incentive for less-experienced players to continue playing. This being said, the utility of these items when there are other sources (Gifts from the Lotus, Relic farming, Simaris, dedicated Endo farming, and Login rewards) causes their relative value as sortie rewards to be diminished.

Conclusion:

As a veteran player, the only thing I can look forward to from getting from Sorties are Rivens. While I do understand the usefulness of some rewards which I personally don't have value for, I know that from the perspective of a newer player these rewards can still be meaningful returns on time investment.

However, as it is now, the sortie mission system and reward system should both be looked at to incentivize both old and new players alike to want to complete each of the 3 missions and feel satisfied from the outcome, regardless of what reward they get.

In my opinion, this would entail tailoring the rewards according to the MR of the player, and/or distributing the rewards across all 3 mission types like several others have mentioned earlier in this thread. Careful balancing of the probabilities and value of the rewards will be needed as well to prevent oversaturating the market as well as unnecessarily inflating player progression.

Edited by InsomnIaC.
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On 21/1/2017 at 2:47 PM, Multicom-EN- said:

Not possible since the system forces another reward on you after 2 in a row.

Not true, my last 3 sorties were all 2k Endo. (I have a log of my last 54 sorties' rewards, I even have screenshots of them all). 

Not saying that those 19 times in a row post it's true, but I definitely got 2k Endo three times in a row.

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On 1/21/2017 at 0:38 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

I'd appreciate any constructive notes you can offer - is there anything in the Sorties at all you consider not awful? I've played them almost daily and I find I'm happiest when I get a Riven or 4K Endo. Where would you rank your most favourite to least favourite?

I'm sorry to say this but it helps to be honest when we're having these conversations publicly - 2000 Endo being too common is one thing, but exaggerating when I can see the facts pertaining to a given account is not constructive I'm afraid. I'm not downplaying your frustration - I've gotten consecutive things I don't need or want. 

Rivens will obviously be popular for most players as the majoirty seem to want to go down the riven route, and even for those of us who don't they are sellable.

Boosters are next on the list for me, because I have everything else I could ever want (piles of endo, piles of lenses, completed focus schools).

Everything else I have zero need for.

Even So I think the rest of the rare rewards are fine as sortie rewards (potatoes, etc)

I think lenses are a fine reward for sorties for those just doing the 2nd dream and getting focus. Many lenses is VASTLY preferable to the small amount of lenses from the past that locked us into 1 set of lensed gear to use all the time. Being free to lens lots of gear will always be a good thing for diversity (Though I think lenses should be on the operator not the frames and should wear out and need replacing which would up their value as constant rewards and free up frames from being lensed or not lensed.). 

4K Endo while not good for me any more, is till great for many many players. I see no need to get rid of that as a reward.

2K endo is less, but hey, every missions needs it's "Forma" reward on rotation C. The whammy. The "Well you tried but you didn't get anything good". the lottery ticket that just wins your money back.  You have a chance at a legendary core, and Rivens and Boosters.... not every sortie can be a great reward or else the "great reward" will become common and then not great Get enough lenses you don't need them, get enough endo 4K doesn't matter any more. Get enough gold potatoes (I have 50 of em) and they are not good rewards.

Keeping rare things rare is good for the game. Which means common rewards that people have lots of still have to be in the tables. We (should) accept getting 2K endo because we have a shot at a core or booster or riven. While some might complain, these fillers need to be there.

Just make sorties fun and challenging, and the rewards won't matter as much. Fun trumps rewards. Make them harder (less revives would be a great universal sortie condition).

Edited by Shockwave-
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On 1/21/2017 at 0:38 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

I'd appreciate any constructive notes you can offer - is there anything in the Sorties at all you consider not awful? I've played them almost daily and I find I'm happiest when I get a Riven or 4K Endo. Where would you rank your most favourite to least favourite?

I'm sorry to say this but it helps to be honest when we're having these conversations publicly - 2000 Endo being too common is one thing, but exaggerating when I can see the facts pertaining to a given account is not constructive I'm afraid. I'm not downplaying your frustration - I've gotten consecutive things I don't need or want. 

I have similar frustrations with the reward tables.  I've done lots of sorties over the last several months and it is entirely frustrating.  When weapon parts were in the table, I rarely got all of the parts needed before the season changed. Since War Within came out on console, I think I've missed one, maybe two sorties and I've gotten all of two rifle riven mods.  Now that shotgun and pistol rivens are available, I'm wondering how long it will take to get one of those let alone a useful one. So far, all these riven mods have done is create a crazy market for high valued rivens.  People want 150 plat for a veiled pistol riven, people are offering 500, or more plat for a Hek/Tigris riven.  This is crazy IMO and I'm in full agreement with Trichoutte, it's powercreep and unbalance. Either you grind and sell primes for plat or you just buy the plat, whoever has the most plat can get the best stuff.  If I know I can get a riven mod at least once a week or every 5 days, that would be worth it.  At my current rate, I might have 5 rivens by May and I'll be incredibly lucky to get a decent one out of those. What's the point of collecting all the Endo when you no longer have mods that need ranked up   

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Lens can still be useful, but I can sympathize with that. I dislike getting 2000 endo for such missions too. That has changed to sculptures now; perhaps with suggestions other options could be looked at as well. What do you think DE could currently use to incentivize players to run and enjoy Sorties?

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31 minutes ago, KYLoooo said:

You can only get lenses from sorties.

you don't want lenses.

Maybe don't play sorties.

:nerd:

Yes because lenses existence somehow invalidates every other better prize on the list that someone is aiming for. </sarcasm>

In all honesty I don't think lenses belong in sorties, but not for the reason you might think. Focus is unlocked by the second dream. Focus requires lenses. You cannot get access to more lenses until you finish the the war within or bypass sorties entirely via trading or market purchase. That is out of wack. Remove lenses from sorties, add them to moon endless or as a common/guaranteed drop from sentients. 

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My 2 cents

Sorties were intended to be "LATE GAME" worthy missions.    Most late game players have enough resources. Period.   No need to insult us with resources.  Don't need any of it.  Get it from regular playing just fine.

Sorties used to be for exclusive rewards that were all obtainable.  Lenses, Nezha parts, old and exclusive weapon parts only offered in one time alerts and such.    These were all guaranteed to drop during a season if you played at least most of the season  and on top of that we got cores when a reg. part didn't drop as at least a nice thank you..   Plus the really rare chance at potatoes, and legendary cores.

Then you changed the whole dam thing to accommodate the Rivens.   No problem, riven's are baddass and worthy of a little hard working grind, yea?    But then we feel insulted by this garbage that can be obtained thru normal game play.  Forma, nitain, exilus, had some other resources in there too for a little while, argon wasn't it?   Ugggh   You took away the Guaranteed and replaced it with RNG and added some resources that made it "FEEL" wrong.   Old way = Guaranteed  New Way = Not guaranteed... lol

Solution 1.   After completing the sorties we automatically get a base reward of 100k credits and 2000k (or whatever amount) endo.   Throw in your exclusive reward at whatever drop rate you determined.   Done... no more complaining about the damm rewards.   No more forma insults, etc.   Honestly though, i would add a GUARANTEE of each class of Riven before you got the same type.     Hate to get 6 rifle and no melee after a month of daily sorties.   Just sayin'

Solution 2.  Have baro get his own store.  Open 24/7.  Sell whatever you like.    Price them accordingly and give out ducats as sortie rewards. Something meaningful.   Maybe 75.     But here's a neat little trick.  BONUS DUCATS.   All sorts of ways to implement bonuses.   Can be simple stuff like going solo or not failing all three or doing 7 days in a row or using only 1 class of weapons.  Maybe that gives a 25% bonus if they choose the bonus mission.     But for some REAL bonus ducats throw in some crazy ideas.   Really creative stuff.   Loki without going invisible.  Spy mission with Atlas.  No pet or sentinal and must break open every crate during regular mission.  Stuff like that.  Don't use a computer to randomly generate this either. Open up a forum thread for Sortie Bonus suggestions.   Be creative, get people interested in playing again.    Have milestone rewards.. for 100th successful sortie, you get a pick a nice shiny bobble head from the store.  FREE... thanks for playing warframe.  Come back soon.

The idea is that Sorties could not only be a hell of a lot of fun, but the payouts would be worth it.    Double Ducats gift card that I can use at TennoDepot?  awwww yea!

This makes sense for reasons:

stops the incessant reward complaints.   Solution #1 only gives exclusive rewards with a guaranteed drop rate that is fixed and stated.   You know you'll get it eventually.  Nothing to *@##&#036; about or be butthurt by.

Solution #2 makes you guys lots of money and makes players happy because they gets the stuff they want and you get people who just bought some random riven's with all those ducats they got from sorties and relic grinds now need a couple more slots and potatoes and a whole lot of formas... but i used all my ducats on those rivens guess i'll buy some forma's with plat... but wait, I don't have any prime parts to sell for plat because i spent them on rivens... pulls out the credit card... KaChing!   DE's got paid, player got Sancti Tigris God mode riven.   All  happy happy.   Prime parts also go up in price because they're selling em all to buy Baro's crap, so Kaching, people spending more for that Orthos Prime or Fang Prime so sellers be happy, and new players need plat to shortcut their time, so wow... you guys have enough to hire someone to interact more with community to get feedback on what's working and not working and game gets better and better and better.     

Seriously... you guys should think about it.  

 

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