Crafting the Akbolto

[lohntron39]

So I have a question about this. I have an upgraded level 30 Bolto already, and am building a second one in the foundry. If I use these two to make the AKbolto, how do I get the orokin catalyst back, and do any of the affinity levels carry over to the new gun, i.e. an average between the two used?

[Ryme]

The catalyst was used up when you first applied it to the gun. Nothing carries over. Be sure to remove you mods or you will lose those too.

[Karzak]

keep the bolto and craft 2 new boltos for use in the akbolot blueprint

[lohntron39]

The catalyst was used up when you first applied it to the gun. Nothing carries over. Be sure to remove you mods or you will lose those too.

Why was it used up? Why wouldn't it apply to the akbolto, giving you an already upgraded gun? Considering the rarity of getting a catalyst, it ought to convey some benefit if one of the materials used in construction already has it.

[Blatantfool]

Lohn has a point, it is kinda silly it doesn't carry over some sort of bonus if one of your guns is supercharged. Even if they don't pro your new gun they might as well acknowledge you used the hell out of the base gun.

A big affinity payout to the gun based on the level and pro status of the base parts is pretty fair. If he puts a Pro'd level 30 Bolto in they could at the very least give him something like a level 15 Akbolto to start with for his troubles.

I haven't seen this sort of thing discussed yet. Good thread.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Rivy]

I agree, in fact, if you craft a dual weapon by using a rank 30 gun, I'd say it should be lv15... if you have 2 lv30 latos, the resulting aklato should be lv30, and if it had a potato in it, the aklato should have a potato in it.

Otherwise it's pointless to level up any single weapon that has a dual option / upgrade option.

[Blatantfool]

I agree, in fact, if you craft a dual weapon by using a rank 30 gun, I'd say it should be lv15... if you have 2 lv30 latos, the resulting aklato should be lv30, and if it had a potato in it, the aklato should have a potato in it.

Otherwise it's pointless to level up any single weapon that has a dual option / upgrade option.

This is what I'm torn about. Should you really get 100% returns though? And if that is the case, what of the supercharge you lost? Those are extremely valuable so you probably want something from it.

I think a level 30 base item should result in a level 10 Crafted item. And two level 30 base items in a level 20. Then, if a supercharge happens to be on one, it'd be worth 5 levels. Saving you valuable time grinding while taking into consideration time you've already spent using the base components.

This would mean, if you had two level 30 Bolto, one of em also Supercharged, you'd nail up a level 25 AKBolto without a Supercharge. Fair enough, I feel. That is a great bonus.

[direcyphre]

I'm not terribly concerned with the following weapon you craft being unranked when you receive it. You're going to level it anyway and it's definitely an improvement over the previous. However, it seems a waste to lose the catalyst in the process if you had already upgraded. I'm fine with sacrificing a Level 30 altogether to make a level 0, but the only alternative is farming the 600 Alloy to make two entirely new ones so that it isn't wasted, even if I never intend to use the base Bolto again.

I mean I get it's only 20 plat, or you can hit a lucky alert, but I'm pretty torn on whether to do it. I would have never bothered slotting the potato in the first place if there was an Akbolto option before.

[lohntron39]

I'm not terribly concerned with the following weapon you craft being unranked when you receive it. You're going to level it anyway and it's definitely an improvement over the previous. However, it seems a waste to lose the catalyst in the process if you had already upgraded. I'm fine with sacrificing a Level 30 altogether to make a level 0, but the only alternative is farming the 600 Alloy to make two entirely new ones so that it isn't wasted, even if I never intend to use the base Bolto again.

I mean I get it's only 20 plat, or you can hit a lucky alert, but I'm pretty torn on whether to do it. I would have never bothered slotting the potato in the first place if there was an Akbolto option before.

That 20 plat is a huge investment for a free player, and losing that to replace a gun you would never use again is a pretty heavy blow against both enjoyment and the feeling that your time wasn't wasted.

[lohntron39]

Waiting for a dev response before I build my akbolto. I have a bolto built at the foundry ready to claim, and not enough inventory space to make a third one to use for this.

[Tetsmeha]

Sucks that at least the upgrade doesn't carry over. Levels I understand, but the reactor is a pretty big deal.

[lohntron39]

Still hoping to get a response on this.

[Volume]

That's actually pretty S#&$ty.

Bad enough that it takes your Tenno like 12 hours just to figure out how to pick up a second one at the same time.

[Josslyn]

2 pistol should rise the max ammo that can carry a little bit.

i think there's no point to get twin pistols. not much changed :P(same old dmg and fire rate that human can spam)

[TheRealTuna]

I don't really see a good reason for why the catalyst of a crafting component should be transfered to the new weapon, or why the new weapon should have any additional benefits at all even if crafted using high level/supercharged components.

I doubt the feature to "transfer" catalysts from crafting component to crafted item will ever be implemented for the same reason that catalysts can't be "removed" from weapons and then applied to other ones. DE needs to make money, and already gives players a gigantic amount of f2p content INCLUDING catalysts, even if they are very rare (granted, I definitely think the alert system needs some sort of revamp/rework). Allowing players to reuse their catalysts in any way would not be in the best interest of DE. Instead, be more careful about what you apply your catalysts to. If the Akbolto was already available when you catalyst'd your Bolto, then that was just a really bad decision. If they weren't available, you should have inquired as to whether dual boltos would become available or not.

F2P players always want more than what they are presented with, but take a moment to step back and understand just how much content was offered to players for free in this game.

[Blatantfool]

A lot of the people who say 'DE needs to make their money' seem to leave out the part where they sell:

>Skins

>Warframes

>Weaponry

>Slots

>Shorter Crafting times

You know, aside from cutting down on Crafting time, all those examples are things that will probably always make MORE money then selling Orokin items. So I don't see how defending it with "They need to make money" is valid since there are at least four examples of ways for them to make plenty of money that are all more valuable purchases to a player.

In fact, skins have been proven countless times over to be one of the most luctrative things you could sell in a F2P game that generate next to NO complaints. Those alone are probably destined to be a more valuable selling point.

And then you've got slots, which are priced roughly the same but have an infinitely higher value and are infinitely more important to a player.

Orokin items are probably the tiniest little bit of what they'll actually make in money once a lot of player get to spending in their proper cash shop at release.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Blatantfool

[lohntron39]

I don't really see a good reason for why the catalyst of a crafting component should be transfered to the new weapon, or why the new weapon should have any additional benefits at all even if crafted using high level/supercharged components.

I doubt the feature to "transfer" catalysts from crafting component to crafted item will ever be implemented for the same reason that catalysts can't be "removed" from weapons and then applied to other ones. DE needs to make money, and already gives players a gigantic amount of f2p content INCLUDING catalysts, even if they are very rare (granted, I definitely think the alert system needs some sort of revamp/rework). Allowing players to reuse their catalysts in any way would not be in the best interest of DE. Instead, be more careful about what you apply your catalysts to. If the Akbolto was already available when you catalyst'd your Bolto, then that was just a really bad decision. If they weren't available, you should have inquired as to whether dual boltos would become available or not.

F2P players always want more than what they are presented with, but take a moment to step back and understand just how much content was offered to players for free in this game.

It's very hard to take your post seriously, as you are most certainly talking down to free players who have not made the same choices as you, because they have not made the same choices as you.

The akbolto was not out when I upgraded my bolto. Given the choice between keeping a single bolto or using a dual bolto, no one would keep the single bolto unless it had consumed a rare and important macgufin. If you have been here for any length of time, you already know exactly how futile it is to ask these devs what their plans are for specific items, or even in general; just getting the actual notes from the patch itself is an exercise in patience and hope.

Allowing players to reuse catalysts that are consumed in the foundry process is in DE's best interests in every way; it lets players keep the things they've worked towards without them becoming useless, it encourages players to use the catalysts because they won't be wasted if an upgrade comes out, and it builds good will by not intentionally screwing over people who might decide to buy catalysts because of their increased perception of value.

The amount of content represented by this game is honestly irrelevant; the company decided to make it f2p. Catalysts and other things worked for in-game are just that; things that were worked for, not freely given with no strings attached. They required watching diligently for ? alerts and then farming the materials to build them. To have them become useless cheapens the perceived reward for that work, and will hurt DE in the long-run regardless of how many tilesets they may release.

[TheRealTuna]

It's very hard to take your post seriously, as you are most certainly talking down to free players who have not made the same choices as you, because they have not made the same choices as you.

The akbolto was not out when I upgraded my bolto. Given the choice between keeping a single bolto or using a dual bolto, no one would keep the single bolto unless it had consumed a rare and important macgufin. If you have been here for any length of time, you already know exactly how futile it is to ask these devs what their plans are for specific items, or even in general; just getting the actual notes from the patch itself is an exercise in patience and hope.

Allowing players to reuse catalysts that are consumed in the foundry process is in DE's best interests in every way; it lets players keep the things they've worked towards without them becoming useless, it encourages players to use the catalysts because they won't be wasted if an upgrade comes out, and it builds good will by not intentionally screwing over people who might decide to buy catalysts because of their increased perception of value.

The amount of content represented by this game is honestly irrelevant; the company decided to make it f2p. Catalysts and other things worked for in-game are just that; things that were worked for, not freely given with no strings attached. They required watching diligently for ? alerts and then farming the materials to build them. To have them become useless cheapens the perceived reward for that work, and will hurt DE in the long-run regardless of how many tilesets they may release.

First of all, it's interesting that you seem to know so much about the choices that I've made...of course, we're talking about me investing in the Master founder pack. If I told you that I wanted a HEK, I'm sure you would assume that I would just buy it with Platinum...but your assumption would be wrong just as your initial assumption of why I purchased the founders pack is wrong. I farmed for the materials required to make the HEK and am electing not to rush it through the crafting process. Why? Because I have always been a F2P player. I ENJOY the grind, and I enjoy the satisfaction of completing an objective without having to take shortcuts and use real money. The reason I bought the pack was to support DE and WARFRAME. I respect the work that DE is doing, and was impressed enough by the enormous amount of content they are releasing to invest money into the COMPANY. I still have almost all of my platinum left, with a bit spent on the color pallete and newly released helmets which are completely unnecessary but welcome things. I don't plan on spending Platinum on anything that I can achieve for free. As one who is practiced in its form, I'm sure you know what they say about assuming, Lohntron.

Apart from exposing your "understanding" as ignorance, the reason I mentioned my reasons for investing in the Master foundes pack is that it is important to note that my previous post was written AS A PREDOMINATELY F2P PLAYER. In fact, I bought the Master founders package TWO DAYS AGO, and have been playing and experiencing the game as a F2P player since I got a beta key.

It is difficult for me to take YOUR post seriously, as you appear to just be one of many thankless F2P players out there that feels that he is entitled to more and more just for playing the game...and this isn't me assuming, this is you presenting yourself in such a way that reasonably leads to this conclusion. F2P players are not entitled to anything just for playing the game, and will never be entitled to any such things. The amount of content you get for free is absolutely relevant; that you believe otherwise only further supports the contention that you are part of the aformentioned demographic. Sure, you could make the argument that F2P games NEED their F2P players, that this is a closed beta that relies on the feedback of F2P players, and if you don't get what you want you will "be done with this game" or "just stop playing" -- to use phrases that members of the aformentioned demographic tend to use -- then go ahead. Shake your fists in the air, stomp on the ground, cry "wah wah wah" and play another game. You aren't entitled to anything. Learn to respect the hard work of others, as opposed to crying that you aren't getting everything you want when you want it.

I expect catalysts and generators to become an important source of income for WARFRAME, even if they won't rake in as much as skins eventually will. They are important (but far from required) and relatively cheap. Because they are cheap, people will be more inclined to invest a little money into them. On top of that, they are difficult to acquire (AS THEY SHOULD BE), making them more attractive for their relatively low cost. Warframes, on the other hand, are very expensive and intimidating; between warframes, and skins/reactors/item slots, I definitely feel like the income will come more from the latter.

Allowing players to reuse catalysts in any way will be harmful to DE's income for obvious reasons. It is a priviledge to be able to get orokin catalysts in game, a priviledge that I (and you) should be thankful for before going on about how it's unfair that you used your catalyst poorly and want it back. Using a Bolto over an Akbolto isn't optimal, sure. But it's far from ineffective, and definitely far from "useless" as you say, and certainly shouldn't feel like a waste of your time and resources just because it isn't optimal. "But it's not the best!!! I want the best!!!"...then wait for another catalyst to appear or pay for the catalyst. There is no reason, according to any F2P model, why you should be able to achieve optimum results and gear QUICKLY without having to shell out money.

WITH THAT SAID, if we are discussing sensibility of allowing catalysts to become reusable through combining and crafting versus just allowing them to be removed from weapons at will, the former obviously is more sensible, and at least makes some sort of sense as to why it COULD be argued for. While it is in no way required, and while players are in no way entitled to that kind of catalyst flexibility, it COULD make sense for DE to implement that kind of feature if they happen to be generous enough or if adding such a feature doesn't negatively impact their income too much according to their business models and projections.

EDIT: I should say, and at the risk of sounding hypocritical, that I do think catalysts are a bit too rare in the game right now. Alert missions have so many potential rewards that the likelihood of a "?" alert actually appearing with a catalyst BP is just too random. With that said, that is what should be addressed, not the ability of being able to reuse catalysts. Of course, catalysts should still be kept very rare, but some form of consistency would help keep F2P players at bay.

Edited January 31, 2013 by TheRealTuna

[lohntron39]

There was so much angst and projection in the first three paragraphs of that post that I'm simply going to disregard it. Please post again when you're not being overtly insulting, thanks :)

[Blatantfool]

I expect catalysts and generators to become an important source of income for WARFRAME, even if they won't rake in as much as skins eventually will. They are important (but far from required) and relatively cheap. Because they are cheap, people will be more inclined to invest a little money into them. On top of that, they are difficult to acquire (AS THEY SHOULD BE), making them more attractive for their relatively low cost. Warframes, on the other hand, are very expensive and intimidating; between warframes, and skins/reactors/item slots, I definitely feel like the income will come more from the latter.

While this sounds perfectly sensible Tuna, I think you'll find that evidence proves part of your point wrong.

Warframes aren't too different a purchase from buying something like a Champion in League of Legends. It sells. The crafting times and gathering periods in Warframe are long and some people will buy purely because it wont suit their playtime. The price of the purchase hardly matters unless it is suddenly ridiculously expensive. People who buy this stuff don't have time to reasonably obtain the item through gameplay because of their daily routine. There are a lot of players like that.

Skins sell. I don't even gotta explain that. You know. I know. Other people know. Once again, as long as the actual skin is great and the price isn't ridiculous it sells.

The slots are neccesary. You need to level items to progress. You set items and frames as goals because that is all their is to do outside of farm mats. You need slots to retain items because progressing and gathering these items will feel like a waste of time if you are selling the items you buy as soon as they cap out to be able to use a new item. They'll sell because you need them to keep your progression.

Real convenience items, boosters and the like, are exactly identical to Warframe purchases when it comes to why they fit in and why they'd sell. Only Boosters are usful to players who play a whole lot too.

Really the thing I see as 'least valuable' in terms of a purchase are those Orokin items. They are one shot upgrade items that you may need to feel up to par, but players aren't going to want to buy them because they'll feel they should be able to earn their power level. Only new players making mistakes with their starting plat or the donating players with more plat then stuff to spend it on seem to be "Yeah. Alright. Worth it."

They aren't worth buying on most weapons too, they hardly make an impact on Rifles and Pistols aren't worth Supercharging. They are a weird anomoly halfway between a convenience item and having progression held hostage. Their price doesn't matter. It is what they are that'll make people turn up their nose. There isn't any realistic argument you can take in defense of them over, I dunno, just not having an implement that chokes up progression.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Blatantfool

[TheRealTuna]

I am tempted to agree with your analysis Bfool, but I am still not convinced that people won't buy orokin items for the reason that supercharged weapons are perceived as such a significant advantage over non-charged ones.

Although realistically they might be the least WORTH spending platinum on according to what you say, as item/warframe slots and affinity boosters aren't available for free as of yet, I still think that people WILL spend platinum on them for the sake of convenience and desire to optimize. Were I a player with a warframe or two and a couple weapons at Level 15 without the need for those extra slots or boosters yet, I might be inclined to just shell out the cheap price for the upgrade items.

Do you remember the initial fuss over the PRO system? Players were up in arms complaining that "WARFRAME is P2P!" and there were COUNTLESS threads on every forum and subforum created for the purpose of trashing the PRO system. This signifies peoples' perception of the whole supercharge concept -- it significantly impacts in game performance, and people without supercharged weapons are at a disadvanage compared to those who do. How true that is has yet to be determined (although 2 mod slots and extra stats is nothing to scoff at, truthfully).

Your point is well taken nonetheless, I think orokin items may contribute less to the overall income of DE than I initially thought based on your analysis of each plat item. However, just because they will contribute "less" than what I initially thought does not mean F2P players are somehow entitled to being able to recycle those orokin items. They are still a source of income. Players looking to optimize their frames and weapons asap will buy them, and those people definitely do exist.

There was so much angst and projection in the first three paragraphs of that post that I'm simply going to disregard it. Please post again when you're not being overtly insulting, thanks :)

In the same way that any presumptuous and entitled brat wouldn't, I am not surprised that you don't want to address anything that I said. What you seem to have labeled as "angst and projection" is neither angst nor projection, but is actually a clarification of the faulty presumptions from the "overtly insulting" post written by you that preceded my post.

Next time you find an orokin catalyst, be sure that you are using it on what you want to use it on. Don't expect DE to change your diaper because you had an accident.

Edited January 31, 2013 by TheRealTuna

[Blatantfool]

I dunno. I'll put it this way in regards to our big topic.

I'd only be in favor of recycling via crafting. A pro'd Bolto should lead to a Pro'd AKBolto in my own opinion.

Taking them out of an item would pretty much be against their point as they are now, I'd be in favor of it but that is unrealistic. But the crafting recycling is sensible, if only for the reason that a player should always get the most bang out of their buck.

Even for a dollar I expect DE to treat me pretty well. I'd consider making he Supercharge transfer in crafting to be them looking out for me. It wouldn't really do anything but help to make sure money spent on those items can never well and truly be wasted. Which I think just about anyone can be in favor of.

As the sheer amount of weapon and warframe content expends this could really be a boon to the player. I think this does manage to be a pretty sensible request. It helps anyone equally and does take out the need to worry about losing something valuable like that just because you are following the sort of natural progression laid out by the game.

The other dude Lohn, was right. It DOES make sense that after you've got a Bolto you'd naturally go for AKBolto eventually. It just makes sense.

As for the Orokin items selling. Yeah, they are income all the same. But I think there should be a little less focus on that income. They shouldn't be looking for way to convince us to buy them. That only makes the trouble with them worse over time and the issue already gets aggravated anew whenever new content shows up. Players need to feel like they aren't being hurt when they are without. This last patch did a lot to aggravate the issue and there was already a healthy amount of negativity before.

Their other means of moneymaking are all very likely to become more luctrative anyway. Why focus on a dollar once in a while when you could sell other things with less resistance anyway?

Edited January 31, 2013 by Blatantfool

[TheRealTuna]

It really comes down to DE's business model and how much they expect catalysts and generators to actually yield. It's difficult to determine how much each platinum item will yield in terms of profit for DE as we are still only in closed beta, and no skins exist yet. It would be interesting to see the current profit generated from each plat item. If it turns out that Orokin items are not really a significant source of income, I think DE will actually tend on their own to make them more available in game. If they are, in fact, a significant source of income, they are going to be less inclined to allow for things like the recycling of catalysts through crafting.

The fact remains that, even if the Akbolto was the logical next step for a Bolto user, the supercharged Bolto on its own is not bad at all. It's not optimal with the introduction of the Akbolto, but why should you be entitled to smooth optimization if you're playing as a F2P player? Especially if you didn't even pay money for the catalyst to begin with...

[lohntron39]

In the same way that any presumptuous and entitled brat wouldn't, I am not surprised that you don't want to address anything that I said. What you seem to have labeled as "angst and projection" is neither angst nor projection, but is actually a clarification of the faulty presumptions from the "overtly insulting" post written by you that preceded my post.

Next time you find an orokin catalyst, be sure that you are using it on what you want to use it on. Don't expect DE to change your diaper because you had an accident.

Awww, you didn't read my post. I asked you to post when you weren't being overtly insulting, not when you were making an &#! of yourself. That's not very nice.

That aside, it's a beta. I supposed that if someone hadasked DE to "change their diaper", that would be a horrible thing because as we all know, things don't change in betas. Are you familiar with the term "biodrone"?

[Blatantfool]

The fact remains that, even if the Akbolto was the logical next step for a Bolto user, the supercharged Bolto on its own is not bad at all. It's not optimal with the introduction of the Akbolto, but why should you be entitled to smooth optimization if you're playing as a F2P player? Especially if you didn't even pay money for the catalyst to begin with...

This specifically assumes that you are playing free. Maybe he isn't? What if he bought it? Why isn't he entitled for the most out of every cent?

Also, lets not get into rocky arguments like "Why should a Free player be treated well?" because the answer is one you can't really argue. A good game doesn't care what you paid. You get all sorts of neat gizmos when you choose to pay but that doesn't immediately make you better then some guy who hasn't. It doesn't mean you deserve more. All players should be treated the same because that is what a good game is supposed to do.

Seriously. Look at League of Legends. Look at DotA2. It should NOT matter what you've paid. The counter argument will always be "Instead of asking me why I feel entitled to a smooth game experience, I should be asking you why you are so entitled to being treated better purely because you spent a little money. You bought your product. You got your items. You money doesn't mean anything after that."

All of the shining F2P examples are slowly trying to rid themselves of any difference between paying and non-paying players. If you buy you get something the guy who didn't buy wont have, almost always totally cosmetic. That is what sets you apart. Everyone should be treated equal by the game itself, the paying guys just get to look great doing it. They have their pick of a huge variety of looks.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Blatantfool