Farming to purchase more farming.

[Diarmut]

I honestly feel that the AK Lex should be treated as either a mistake that should never be repeated(Relics through Baro), or it should be something that DE looks very heavily into to see how the F4F(farming for farming) effects the player bases stockpiles of credits, ducats, plat, and prime parts. Having relics that cost ducats is a strange barrier because it simply requires too many things to have it only end up in a chance, I can see how DE tried to minimize those chances by making the A2 relic Lex and Ak Lex only, but having that Forma in there means that any player unlucky enough could end up with only Formas for all their effort jumping through the multiple hoops DE has set up for us.

[DeMonkey]

15 minutes ago, Diarmut said:

I honestly feel that the AK Lex should be treated as either a mistake that should never be repeated(Relics through Baro), or it should be something that DE looks very heavily into to see how the F4F(farming for farming) effects the player bases stockpiles of credits, ducats, plat, and prime parts. Having relics that cost ducats is a strange barrier because it simply requires too many things to have it only end up in a chance, I can see how DE tried to minimize those chances by making the A2 relic Lex and Ak Lex only, but having that Forma in there means that any player unlucky enough could end up with only Formas for all their effort jumping through the multiple hoops DE has set up for us.

Hey now, I basically copyrighted ''farming for farming''. My people will get in touch with your people real soon. Grrr.

As to your post you're right, it is a strange barrier. Baro's always brought guaranteed loot (aside from the dragon mod packs, but they aren't exclusive to Baro). Prisma weapons are guaranteed with your purchase, Event weapons are guaranteed with your purchase and are now obtainable outside of Baro.

We had a (debatably) fine prime system. Now we have a second tier of prime that's locked behind a timewall and more RNG. 

And there's nothing stopping DE from adding more Primes this way either. Sure people may have excess ducats now, but when they've run out after the 4th new relic and they realise they're having to farm a ton more they won't be singing Baro's praises.

[Chipputer]

I'm fine with this as long as it stays as a once in a while sort of thing and is a self contained relic and isn't expensive. As I said in another topic, lowering the ducat cost to 45 or 40 per relic so that you don't need to get an uncommon + a common to get one of these relics would be a much better alternative, but 50 isn't too pricey as it is. It also needs to return frequently (even every time). In essence it's almost no different from farming ducats to get beacons, except that you can get ducats back from this relic that you paid ducats for to begin with.

The issue will be if they do it too often and with silly things. Releasing something like a Dual Dakra Prime this way, 3 or 4 months from now, wouldn't hurt anything. Releasing said Dual Dakra two weeks from now, with another new dual one a few weeks from then, ad nauseum, would be a problem.

[DeMonkey]

7 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

The issue will be if they do it too often and with silly things. Releasing something like a Dual Dakra Prime this way, 3 or 4 months from now, wouldn't hurt anything. Releasing said Dual Dakra two weeks from now, with another new dual one a few weeks from then, ad nauseum, would be a problem.

My issue is more with the ever increasing grind rather than specifically this relic nonsense.

So in my opinion, they have done it too often, with far too silly things. Last week it was the Hema, in which not only was the grind 10x higher than anything else that required Mutagen Samples they straight up lied about an increase to drop rates.

Apparently they felt no remorse for that decision and have launched into another experimental grind increase.

That's why I made this thread, where exactly does this end?

[Chipputer]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

My issue is more with the ever increasing grind rather than specifically this relic nonsense.

So in my opinion, they have done it too often, with far too silly things. Last week it was the Hema, in which not only was the grind 10x higher than anything else that required Mutagen Samples they straight up lied about an increase to drop rates.

Apparently they felt no remorse for that decision and have launched into another experimental grind increase.

That's why I made this thread, where exactly does this end?

Beacons are already a thing and they are basically the exact same as this relic. Granted, you can go grind out some boss kills/invasion runs to get "free" attempts at those beacon kills, but you are still grinding in order to grind either way.

Hema is a completely different thing, and works off of an entirely different mechanic, that being clans which are intended to have multiple active members that can contribute to the same objective (IE: 5000 / 10 = 500 per person). However you feel about that isn't relevant to this relic as they are in two different worlds.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

13 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Beacons are already a thin g and they are basically the exact same as this relic.

The only issue I have with that is baro has those most of the time. Also players can share beacons just like the old void keys. Relics do not work that way. Furthermore this relic may or may not be back 4-6 months from now. Or has Rebecca has said she has no idea when it will return. 

Edited January 30, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[DeMonkey]

14 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Beacons are already a thing and they are basically the exact same as this relic. Granted, you can go grind out some boss kills/invasion runs to get "free" attempts at those beacon kills, but you are still grinding in order to grind either way.

Hema is a completely different thing, and works off of an entirely different mechanic, that being clans which are intended to have multiple active members that can contribute to the same objective (IE: 5000 / 10 = 500 per person). However you feel about that isn't relevant to this relic as they are in two different worlds.

They're exactly the same world, the world of "additions to warframe".

Beacons initiate boss fights, boss fights that as you said can be encountered through normal play and thus isn't exclusive to Baro by any stretch.

Hema was an increase in grind, I don't particularly care what the intention was, as a fact it was an increase and the community revolted against it.

They completely ignored the communities concerns regarding increasing grind and have now done this.

Of course they're the same world, and how I feel about it is entirely relevant, especially if DE want continued support from me.

[Ditto132]

I wonder how many players are unable to buy from Baro due to Lunar New Year...

Sure, I just have to login to buy, but the new Relic system with RNG had depleted most of my Relics.
It is not a bad system, but I used to farm for survival keys. Using one key to farm for Ducats for 20-60 mins.
I used to farm and stock up keys when "there are nothing to do" as some players claimed.
Use those keys when new primes are released, for some reasons during my busiest schedules and deadlines to meet...

With the current Relic system, I can't invite my friend to also get some Ducats while I using my keys and it is now one Relic for one reward. 
And when new primes are released, I got to farm for the Relics and then farm for the primes. Due to busy reasons, I planned to farm for the Relics first before they got vaulted.
But the reality is, even after getting the Relics, I didn't even feel bothered to start farming for the primes using the Relics... due to time, lack of void traces and RNG fissure.

With Key, I can just login and use the key and play for few minutes to one hour and go to sleep.
With Relic, for Ducat farming, I have to look for useless Relic type to expend and matching fissure mission.
For Prime farming, I have to farm for void traces using useless Relic type, radiant it and also matching fissure mission. 

P.S. players who got plenty of Ducats and Relics are mostly those who don't really have much real life commitments...

[(PSN)Silverback73]

6 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

My issue is more with the ever increasing grind rather than specifically this relic nonsense.

So in my opinion, they have done it too often, with far too silly things. Last week it was the Hema, in which not only was the grind 10x higher than anything else that required Mutagen Samples they straight up lied about an increase to drop rates.

Apparently they felt no remorse for that decision and have launched into another experimental grind increase.

That's why I made this thread, where exactly does this end?

It doesn't.  You are starting to figure out DE's Macro-"Big Picture" Strategy.

Volume-based Exclusionary Choice Gaming.

The sheer number of items to obtain along with resource inflation means you simply won't be able to farm and build everything the game offers in a 24 hour time sink.

So you must choose what to play and what to buy.  Or you buy boosters for DE's ideal gameplay experience if revenues weren't a consideration.

This makes a good gameplay experience imperative, so you don't resent the money spent/plat buys.

Accepting that you must spend to get everything you want is a fine business strategy, but it is vitally important that DE focus on making the gameplay choices we do make as awesome as possible for it to work.

It really started with TSD.

Edited January 30, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73

[DeMonkey]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Accepting that you must spend to get everything you want is a fine business strategy, but it is vitally important that DE focus on making the gameplay choices we do make as awesome as possible for it to work.

Perhaps, previously however (pre-TSD) I never felt I had to spend to get everything (save slots), and yet I happily spent hundreds upon hundreds on pounds on the game.

I can live with a slight push in pressure to purchase plat, but as you said it's vitally important DE focus on awesome gameplay choices.

And unfortunately I really don't feel like they have been.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

23 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Perhaps, previously however (pre-TSD) I never felt I had to spend to get everything (save slots), and yet I happily spent hundreds upon hundreds on pounds on the game.

I can live with a slight push in pressure to purchase plat, but as you said it's vitally important DE focus on awesome gameplay choices.

And unfortunately I really don't feel like they have been.

There's a hidden, speculative catch-22 here...DE underestimated how fanatical Warframe enthusiasts were/are.

They want us to play the game but also spend money.  Up until post TSD, I'm guessing the purchase habits and reasons were enough and the gameplay experience didn't affect purchasing habits and vica versa.

But Warframe continues to grow and costs go up.  DE had to re-evaluate and use time sink inflation methods (+resources, +RnG, natural volume of growth) to see how far the limits could be pushed before gameplay experience and purchasing habits collided and affected one another (Sybear and Vauban Prime).  Relics benefit early adopters, both farmers and purchasers.  But what about a month later?

Hema is a stress-test of sorts to find out how far players will go and what happens to analytics as a result.

The true trap with this strategy is that resource sinks become absurdly overbearing, RnG becomes such a grind that it feels like a real job like ditch-digging, or DE rushes content in the name of growth for greater volume and it doesn't feel like we are properly getting rewarded for the gameplay choices we make.

So in short, the Artform is for DE to evolve the profit model so as to have minimal impact on the evolving game itself.  A true task.

 

I hope they succeed.  Because without profit, our journey ends.  Praise be the Void.

Edited January 30, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73

[DeMonkey]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I hope they succeed.  Because without profit, our journey ends.  Praise be the Void.

I wonder if we'll get any word from DE today, obviously they've been away over the weekend but I know they know the thread exists.

[Snib]

9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I wonder if we'll get any word from DE today, obviously they've been away over the weekend but I know they know the thread exists.

Well, if they respond I hope they say we'll get more relics from Baro like this, loved it, most painless farm ever.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

48 minutes ago, Snib said:

Well, if they respond I hope they say we'll get more relics from Baro like this, loved it, most painless farm ever.

You know where Baro Relics might be heading right?

Because Banshee isn't popular, her entire PA may be repurposed as a relic sink which will drive the value of ducats through the roof, and you certainly won't be able to claim Baro doesn't bring value, lol.

If this is the strategy (just speculating), expect a melee and her parts in the form of relics and trader visits.

And another traditional PA will stack on top.

[Snib]

As long as the relic price stays as cheap as it was I wouldn't mind. Farming a handful of ducats to buy a specific relic is so much easier compared to having to run hours of Hieracon to get a handful of Axi E1, for example. The only problem then would be the time gating since not everybody has access to the game when Baro is there, so maybe Baro should open some 24/7 relic shop subsidiary. ;)

[MagPrime]

4 hours ago, Snib said:

so maybe Baro should open some 24/7 relic shop subsidiary. ;)

This would totally defeat the purpose of Baro, as well as putting Relics like the A2 on him.

[Snib]

1 minute ago, Noamuth said:

This would totally defeat the purpose of Baro, as well as putting Relics like the A2 on him.

I meant for relics in general, not the "special" ones. But it was just a tongue in cheek idea, anyway, I'm fairly certain that will never happen.

[Diarmut]

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Hey now, I basically copyrighted ''farming for farming''. My people will get in touch with your people real soon. Grrr.

As to your post you're right, it is a strange barrier. Baro's always brought guaranteed loot (aside from the dragon mod packs, but they aren't exclusive to Baro). Prisma weapons are guaranteed with your purchase, Event weapons are guaranteed with your purchase and are now obtainable outside of Baro.

We had a (debatably) fine prime system. Now we have a second tier of prime that's locked behind a timewall and more RNG. 

And there's nothing stopping DE from adding more Primes this way either. Sure people may have excess ducats now, but when they've run out after the 4th new relic and they realise they're having to farm a ton more they won't be singing Baro's praises.

 

DE my people are your people..., bro.

[dashashou]

well we "strongly suspect " that mesa prime is coming next    and i'm going to bet that she's coming with Ak-lex  .  if this turns out to be the case i'm going to laugh with much schadenfreude  

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, Ravel7 said:

well we "strongly suspect " that mesa prime is coming next    and i'm going to bet that she's coming with Ak-lex  .  if this turns out to be the case i'm going to laugh with much schadenfreude  

I'm going to need a sauce for that, sounds pretty interesting.

I'm always told to try new foods and stop eating the same curry all the time, time to trade in my Lamb Vindaloo for a Lamb Mesa-Prime-Rumour?

On second thought that sounds naff.

[Chipputer]

On 1/29/2017 at 11:05 PM, DeMonkey said:

They're exactly the same world, the world of "additions to warframe".

That's called semantics and you're better than that, Monkey.

They're both additions, but they are entirely different additions. You're clearly upset by one of them and it's clouding your judgment when it comes to the other.

[MagPrime]

4 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

That's called semantics and you're better than that, Monkey.

They're both additions, but they are entirely different additions. You're clearly upset by one of them and it's clouding your judgment when it comes to the other.

Actually, semantics is one of Monkey's fav topics. 

[Chipputer]

1 minute ago, Noamuth said:

Actually, semantics is one of Monkey's fav topics. 

Touche.

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

That's called semantics and you're better than that, Monkey.

They're both additions, but they are entirely different additions. You're clearly upset by one of them and it's clouding your judgment when it comes to the other.

I don't get emotional. You can ask my ex.

Explain to me how they aren't the same world. Not why you don't think they're the same world, but why they objectively aren't the same world. 

Because objectively I'm pretty sure they are. Both increased the time required from nothing to getting the item, both are recent additions, both are a part of Warframe. I'm not sure how much more the same world you can get.

Not trying to be rude, just curious.

[DeMonkey]

10 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

Actually, semantics is one of Monkey's fav topics. 

Rude! I'm telling Danielle.