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[DE]Rebecca

Dojo Clan Sizes: Alliances, Tiers, And Changes. Coming Soon.

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Now all I wanna know is when is it happening?! And will there still be forma for dojo construction?

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Solution for the clans tiers problems:

 

As i wrote:

 

6  Tiers before 1000/ people in clan.

 

Then lets take a look for s SUPRA Fieldron samples NEEDED

 

1st tier (1-10persons) - goal is 200pcs (base parametr 20pcs - according to get 20pcs for each is easy)

 

2d tier  (10-50) - goal is  => 50(max current tier persons amount)*20(base) - 5(half amount of previous tier persons)*20(base) =  900pcs

 

3d tier (50-100) - goal is   =>  100(max current tier persons amount)*20(base) - 25(half amount of previous tier persons )*20(base)= 1500pcs

 

4th tier (100-300) - goal is   =>  300(max current tier persons amount)*20(base) - 50(half amount of previous tier persons)*20(base)= 5000pcs

 

5th tier (300-600) - goal is   =>  600(max current tier persons amount)*20(base) - 150(half amount of previous tier persons)*20(base)= 9000pcs

 

6th tier (600-1000) - goal is   =>  1000(max current tier persons amount)*20(base) - 300(half amount of previous tier persons)*20(base)= 14000pcs

 

Something like that would be

ohl.png

PS. Im not gonna tell Rebecca  - USE this, but sould be like this. For sure )

 

IF you like this guys - vote for it , lets prove our opinions!

Really like this

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Well I am failing to see the issue with forma. I have done at least 100 or so void missions and have found like 15 blueprints of the dam things. At this rate the only issue it has, is the fact that you cant craft more then one at a time. The same applies to my 9 other clan mates as well. They all have like 5-10 blueprints they are sitting on just because the void mission throw them at you.

 

What I mean is for example, you have a room costing 100 formas, a clan of 100, so thats 1 day to craft enough for one room if everyone crafts and donates one. If 90 left temporarily. then the clan goes to the lower tier and everything is 90% cheaper. Only 10 of the players need to donate to finish the room now and then the rest can rejoin, leaving 90 forma to be used. This could be repeated by cycling who is currently in the clan while keeping it below 10 members so donations can be made. You could then get 10 rooms for the price of one and still be in the larger tier of players, which would be considered an exploit.

 

If you add in the fact that not everyone in a 100 man clan would have forma or forma bps to craft, then the days needed to craft and cate forma goes up,adding time to dojo construction without the actual build times or considering any other materials, which this exploit could also be used for and is arguably the bigger issue considering research materials and such.

Edited by F1ddleD1ddle

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Seeing a lot of great responses here, I'm particularly interested in thoughts that focus on more tiers being necessary.

After lots of discussion internally, there is room to adjust here. Keep in mind clan caps are necessary for technical issues, 1000 is the running cap.

Many people think the disparity between 11 - 100 and 101 - 1000 is simple too high for lower-numbered clans to compete. We can segment these further, I am worried the issue will always be lower numbered clans in tiers will feel at a disadvantage. We can reduce this disadvantage with more tiers, as well as using the Alliance system.

As an example of Alliances using the current 3 tiers as reference:

Clan has 10 members, adding 11 would move to higher tier.

Clan forms Alliance and creates another clan in the 1-10 tier. Repeat.

Eventually you have an Alliance that could have 10 to 100 people it, all clans merge to Mountain Clan when they can cohesively compete in this tier based on experiences as an Alliance.

We are reviewing the possibility of adding more tiers based on feedback here and our own data.

It should def be broken into 101-500, 501-1000 at LEAST.

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Solution for the clans tiers problems:

 

As i wrote:

 

6  Tiers before 1000/ people in clan.

 

Then lets take a look for s SUPRA Fieldron samples NEEDED

 

1st tier (1-10persons) - goal is 200pcs (base parametr 20pcs - according to get 20pcs for each is easy)

 

2d tier  (10-50) - goal is  => 50(max current tier persons amount)*20(base) - 5(half amount of previous tier persons)*20(base) =  900pcs

 

3d tier (50-100) - goal is   =>  100(max current tier persons amount)*20(base) - 25(half amount of previous tier persons )*20(base)= 1500pcs

 

4th tier (100-300) - goal is   =>  300(max current tier persons amount)*20(base) - 50(half amount of previous tier persons)*20(base)= 5000pcs

 

5th tier (300-600) - goal is   =>  600(max current tier persons amount)*20(base) - 150(half amount of previous tier persons)*20(base)= 9000pcs

 

6th tier (600-1000) - goal is   =>  1000(max current tier persons amount)*20(base) - 300(half amount of previous tier persons)*20(base)= 14000pcs

 

Something like that would be

ohl.png

PS. Im not gonna tell Rebecca  - USE this, but sould be like this. For sure )

 

IF you like this guys - vote for it , lets prove our opinions!

I kind of like this.

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The Dojo System brought with it the unlimited growth of clans, a problem we’ve known has needed solving for a while. The resources did not tier based on clan size, which has been an issue since day one.

 

Continued growth will create additional technical issues (Consider the scenario of a 7000 person clan all being on at the same time, that is 7000 unique connections hitting the game server and each other all at the same time). A lot of  highly-populated clans have attested to contact list and matchmaking issues, a problem that will only get worse with unlimited clan growth. Furthermore, complications emerge in events like this weekend’s when we want to have fair competition.

 

We are implementing something to fix all of this soon. The solution we have creates a new system: Alliances (Coming Soon!). Alliances have unbounded growth with no technical issues. Alliances can have an infinite numbers of Clans. Clans will be divided up by size and can have up to 1000 members.

 

The different sized tiers will be as follows:

 

Shadow Clan (up to 10)

Mountain Clan (up to 100)

Moon Clan (up to 1000)

 

Resources required to build Dojo components will multiply by 10 with each tier (i.e. A Shadow Clan needs 1 Ferite, Mountain Clan needs 10 Ferite, Moon Clan needs 100 Ferite.) You can increase your tier by building a larger Clan Hall.

 

If you are in a current clan with over 1000, you will be split up into separate units of up to 1000; the choice is up to the clan members which unit they join. The original Warlord of the clan will be the founder of the Alliance, and all split-clans can join the Alliance if they choose to remain a whole like-minded and goal-oriented unit.

 

If your clan is affected by this (presently 13 clans have more than 1000 members, and of these 13, 3 will have to create more than 2 Clans), your Dojo will be copied for your new Clan so no work on your original Dojo is lost.

 

TL;DR? Clan size tiers coming, three tiers of clans will exist. Resources will scale per tier. Current clans with 1000 + members will be the first to form “Allainces”, a new system to allow unbounded growth. All Coming Soon!

 

 

tumblr_m0w1w0E7vK1qcf1bgo1_400.gif

Cat's out of the bag (excuse to use .gif).

awesome, can't wait for alliances

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I think DE have taken (are taking) the wrong approach and so the hostility.

Forcefully breaking up clans or placing restrictions on size is a bad thing.

 

Having alliances of clans is good but;

My idea is go the other way;

Players join "sects" (Seems a good enough word.) (Getting this word from another game [not mentioning] that has been semi-badly translated so guilds get sometimes called sects. Sects also used to describe the class (or school) players choose so it made it confusing.)

Groups of sects make up the clans.

Moving between sects is without cost (time, money or resources.) so long as they are not full.

Sects can sometimes be temporary to take part in competitive events.

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Having more than one dojo for what is essentially the same clan seems like a recipe for disaster and will only help to increase the drama of splitting the clans apart.

 

IMO The dojo at least should be Alliance based, that would solve that problem.  If there is a "technical problem" with that then at least have the dojo's in the alliance cascade with each other (ie. the dojo's are separate entities but they always update each other, I put down an elevator at point X in my clan's dojo and that elevator automatically cascades and gets built in the other dojo's of the other clans).  It would still serve the "technical limitations" of having big clans but at the same time continue to foster the spirit of co-operation in the large clans.

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Instead of scaling the resources required to the tier of the clan, what about scaling the amount of resources required directly with the amount of players in the clan?

 

By taking a weekly or bi-weekly headcount and applying that on any new construction, it would keep the server resources low and the construction costs relatively constant with the amount of people in a clan.

 

Possible Exploit 1: Allows larger clans to sandbag their numbers before a headcount to get cheaper construction costs.

 

Solution 1: If <variable> amount of people join the clan within the construction timeframe, construction is reset and set to higher values.

 

Possible Exploit 2: Players set up 2 clans, one to "house" the clan, the other to construct their dojo cheaply, enabling them to swap members between the two.

 

Solution 2: Once leaving a clan, there is a 1 month "cool-down" period before being able to rejoin that same clan.

Edited by Syllogy
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As a player with a <10 player clan, this topic does not impact us in a major way... more in a 1/100000000th chance.

 

But seeing it from a W40k buff, this move from DE splits the clans into smaller families, with an upper cap of 1000 per clan.

 

Not necessarily a bad move, and not necessarily a good move either.

 

DE needs to address the humongous gap between the tiers to make it more viable. Dude_on_the_Moon have it right; the gap to the next tier is just to big. Not only that, the cost for dojo updates really needs to be ironed out. How fair it is for a <50 clan to be in the same resource use bracket as the <100 clan? Again, the tiers needs to be more accommodating to the intermediary clans, i.e. clans that are neither here nor there in terms of numbers.

 

We (as in my fellow clansman and I) had been playing since closed beta, and we have been through some pretty big changes along the way. Is it all good for us? No, but we managed to adapt to it: we think of it as another feature that we need to master. So while the legion-splintering accords of the next update might not be affecting us, it will still be affecting the larger set of players out there. And majority of them would not think of it as a feature, but a hindrance to their gameplay.

 

Hopefully DE can address the issue at hand and clarify deeper into what the alliances are all about, and how it affects all players, not just those from 1000+ clans.

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GODDAMN I can't wait 'til this update hits the fan! I mean... hits the scene! Come on, DE! Work! WORK! We want this stuff NOW, alright?!

 

Also: Pokke is the best cat ever (second only to Maru).

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I cannot shake off the feeling that clans are gonna make a realy big impact realy soon in the game,both gameplay wise and lore wise.

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So I should assume that this update is going to make it so it takes the 40 person clan I am in (about 2-10 people active at a time) even longer to make our dojo? We just finally started on the energy lab and the amount of circuits needed is what is stopping us from even finishing it.

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I myself am the architect of a very small clan.  I look forward to finally unlocking some of the things large clans have been privy to for a while now. 

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Not gonna lie, I like the idea I've seen of just doing away with tiers for dojo costs and just having it a simple function based on raw number of members.  Make it a linear or parabolic or whatever kind of function you want, but it does away with the +1 member = lol 10x cost thing, which I think is the biggest issue here.

 

Have tiers for other stuff if you really want, sure, but I think it's problematic having the building costs just ramp up hugely like that based on an arbitrary member count.

Edited by Skytt

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Instead of scaling the resources required to the tier of the clan, what about scaling the amount of resources required directly with the amount of players in the clan?

 

By taking a weekly or bi-weekly headcount and applying that on any new construction, it would keep the server resources low and the construction costs relatively constant with the amount of people in a clan.

 

Possible Exploit 1: Allows larger clans to sandbag their numbers before a headcount to get cheaper construction costs.

 

Solution 1: If <variable> amount of people join the clan within the construction timeframe, construction is reset and set to higher values.

 

Possible Exploit 2: Players set up 2 clans, one to "house" the clan, the other to construct their dojo cheaply, enabling them to swap members between the two.

 

Solution 2: Once leaving a clan, there is a 1 month "cool-down" period before being able to rejoin that same clan.

I don't think it works that way.

 

"Resources required to build Dojo components will multiply by 10 with each tier (i.e. A Shadow Clan needs 1 Ferite, Mountain Clan needs 10 Ferite, Moon Clan needs 100 Ferite.) You can increase your tier by building a larger Clan Hall."

 

I'm assuming this means you would literally have to build something that increases the tier permanently, it's not based on how many members are currently in your clan. I'm guessing you can build a moon clan if you have the resources even if you have less than 100 people.

 

Unless people are willing to demolish and constantly rebuild to try and game the system I don't think it would work. And even if they are willing I doubt the constant building and rebuilding would be worth the temporary lowered costs.

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I like the idea of splitting up clans, but even though DE is working really hard, I still think they screwed it up. For example if I was in a clan of 11 members that 11th member better be worth 90 or in a clan of 101 that 101th member better be worth 900.

I personally like the idea of scaling clan resources directly to the number of players. Here is my system: After clan size exceeds 10 take a head count of number of players rounded to the nearest 10. Then multiply the number of resources per increment of 10. Ex: ~10 members pay 10, ~50 members pay 50, ~500 members pay 500. Clan max sizes and names could still be used with this system but resources are scaled to number of players and not the max size.

That way you don't get screwed into the next highest clan tier's recourse cost by just having one extra person.

Edit: Realized i forgot to add something: to move up to the next tier(still the ones DE is using) the clan must reach the max number of players and build up their clan dojo so they cant just build up everything cheap then start inviting people.

Edited by SpawnOfTheDeep
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This will be great for my friend's clan of seven, because they've been struggling to get the resources to expand their dojo. Thanks for the update, and for such an incredible game. Keep up the good work!

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Could someone add some emblems or something by peoples names in lobbies so you can look at your lobby and see who's in it and what clan they're in?

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I am one of those players that falls into the 4% of clans. I'm the only person In my Clan. (Made long ago just for a name holder way before the idea of dojo's was mentioned... if I ever stopped be lazy are recruited) However the idea of 1-10 is very unappealing...Sure I'd be able to do more on my own but I don't want to be restricted to only having 10 members.

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I love this idea.

 

I'll be honest the only thing I'm questioning is the size scaling. 1-10 and 11-100 seem like a stretch. Most clan's I've ever been part of in my mmo career have been around 20-50 people. I would only add a couple more brackets. 1-24, 25-100, 101-250,251-500, and 501-1000 maybe?

 

There will always be that one person, or that small % at the top of individual players who play enough to accomplish what 100 normal people could in the same time, but expecting 11 regular players to do what 100 players do in the same time seems a bit steep. Clans with memberships in the hundreds and higher don't really have that issue because for every 50 "useless" members you usually get one or two power players who do all the work anyways, but small clans usually don't have that luxury.

Edited by wintersword
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Rebecca wrote -  A lot of  highly-populated clans have attested to contact list and matchmaking issues

 

That's because the chat program Warframe uses for contacts and chat etc etc is rudimentary at best.

I played games back 1997 that had better chat set ups than the one in this game.

 

You devs should look at how they do it for Eve On line.

 

Yeah, I can attest to shotty programing.

 

True, for two months out of the year my Internet is from a Virgin Mobile 3G hotspot device but it makes no sense why 10% of my contacts can't see me. Warframe needs a better way we connect to the servers for chatting and matchmaking. Plain and simple.

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I am one of those players that falls into the 4% of clans. I'm the only person In my Clan. (Made long ago just for a name holder way before the idea of dojo's was mentioned... if I ever stopped be lazy are recruited) However the idea of 1-10 is very unappealing...Sure I'd be able to do more on my own but I don't want to be restricted to only having 10 members.

 

Yeah the smallest tier needs to be 4-20 or even 4-50.

Yes you must form a squad first.

1-3 isn't even a clan. Hell 4 is pushing it. At four you are simply a squad.

 

Look DE I'm sure you have played MMO's right? I really hope you guys don't just make games..

 

MMO's generally have a Guild system.

 

Let's go with something that's been around for ages and still surviving as an example.

 

"In EverQuest 2, a guild is a player-founded and player-run organization within the game. Guilds, like the people who form them, have many different modes of operation and goals. Some guilds exist purely as a social network of players who enjoy gaming together, while others work long and hard to reach end-game content and to become rich and powerful.

Guilds are given various perks by the game, depending upon their level"

 

Clan tiers should not be based on members. They should be based a on an Experience tier. Have Clans level up. This way the clans aren't competing with excessively large active groups at a lower end bracket. They are competing with a group that's just as active as they are.

 

Hell DE this could be your chance to make REAL raids in this game. In order for a guild to level up into another teir they need to slay a tough Grineer, Corpus or Infected leader. By besting this foe that clan now gets closer they know each other better, they who's good at what and who can lead them to victory.

 

As for the matter of scaling resources. It will never work. It just promotes joining an alt's clan made solely for the purpose of rushing build content to get it done at a cheap price. Just make a low end set max that's reasonable and require certain guild levels to get things made.

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