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[DE]Rebecca

Dojo Clan Sizes: Alliances, Tiers, And Changes. Coming Soon.

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In my humble opinion, I think that 1-10 people having one of the three increments is extremely exclusive. My clan is around 16 or so members, made mostly of close friends, so it would be out of place to reduce the clan any further, while at the same time, difficult to keep the same atmosphere with increasing the number. While that is a personal problem, I do feel that the jumps in increments is way too vast, and it would probably be extremely beneficial to add in a couple more tiers in there.

 

For instance:

 

Shadow Clan 1-10          1x Cost

(River?) Clan 11-50        5x Cost

Mountain Clan 51-100    10x Cost

(Sky?) Clan 101-500      50x Cost

Moon Clan 501-1000     100x Cost

 

That way there is a little bit more leeway for clans that have just exceeded the thresh-hold into the next tier of clan grouping, thus providing a little less incentive to cut out players to meet the limitation, similar to a wrestler who stops drinking water to meet a weight requirement.

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Tiered requirements are never a good idea. That's what we already have, and adding finer grained tiers is only going to help a little. Instead, building cost should be drastically lowered, but new requirements should be introduced that scale based on clan member count (or dojo usage is probably better). Maybe introduce power cores that can be bought with credits and act as fuel for the reactors, and every member that uses dojo facilities uses up those cores, so that large clans have to build lots of cores to keep everything running, while small clans can do with few. Maybe balance it so that it comes down to 100k credits per week per member or something.

Another possibility could be that only the first 10 members can enter the dojo, and the clan has to first build housing for 10 more players to get access. This could also scale nicely and fluidly with clan member count.

Finally, i like the idea to make the Oracle limit bp construction to X players at the same time, so that large clans have to build several oracles to deploy weapons to all their members.

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Tiered requirements are never a good idea. That's what we already have, and adding finer grained tiers is only going to help a little. Instead, building cost should be drastically lowered, but new requirements should be introduced that scale based on clan member count (or dojo usage is probably better). Maybe introduce power cores that can be bought with credits and act as fuel for the reactors, and every member that uses dojo facilities uses up those cores, so that large clans have to build lots of cores to keep everything running, while small clans can do with few. Maybe balance it so that it comes down to 100k credits per week per member or something.

Another possibility could be that only the first 10 members can enter the dojo, and the clan has to first build housing for 10 more players to get access. This could also scale nicely and fluidly with clan member count.

Finally, i like the idea to make the Oracle limit bp construction to X players at the same time, so that large clans have to build several oracles to deploy weapons to all their members.

 

Tiered requirements, although not perfect, are at least better than what we have right now. I mean a 50 person clan would rather pay the resources equal to the top of their tier, say 99, than pay the resources for that of the 1000 player clans. Again, it isn't a perfect fix, but it will at least relieve the cost to the smaller clans for the time being.

 

Your power cores idea is just adding too much complexity to a simple fix imo.

 

About your housing idea, I think they said that you would have to build a certain building, or upgrade to the clan hall that lets you move up to the next tier, so that is similar to what you said, just in greater leaps than 10 at a time.

 

I agree your last idea could be useful, but that really isn't the biggest concern right now.

Edited by Ryster66
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its simple: alliances have competitions and clans have tiered rewards.

 

here's how it works:

     alliances are tiered for the competitions by a rating:

         this rating is formed by the number of clans in the alliance.the amount by which the clans change the rating is through the clan size system.

                       this is so an alliance of small clans is not pitted against 4 1000 people clans.

 

     then for clans and players(in a clan or not, and including alliance clans) there are tiered rewards.

             there are two types of rewards: received upon completion of event successful or not, and received upon completion of successful event.

                this prevents players from raging at a lost event sorta :P

            these rewards would include: materials, weapons, STATUES(second tier victory), and potatoes/forma. some unknown some known.

 

            clan rewards and player specific rewards would have to be separate because of statues blueprints for special rooms(hint hint) etc.

 

as for clan size materials scaling I think it should be more complicated then shadow, river, moon(or whatever). PERHAPS the set max size of clan is added to the number of people in the clan which is then averaged to find the percent at which the rooms will cost.(this is spur of the moment so it needs work!)

 

room costs: 100 credits(lol)

max clan size: 100

current size: 50

avg.: 75

room costs:75 credits

if there is any sort of average with a decimal whatever is behind the decimal is removed: 5.8 -> 5(maybe, maybe not)

 

^^ materials scaling is not quite correct (5% cost for 1 person clans XD) <-- correction(the edit2): any average that has more or less then two numbers in front of the decimal is changed so that it only has two number in front of the decimal. (1 person clans only receive 50% of there for instead of 95%) <-- depends on costs of clan sizes really

 

room costs 10000 credits

max size: 1000

current: 500

avg.: 750

changed avg.: 75

room costs: 7500 credits

Edited by dukelego

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Tiered requirements, although not perfect, are at least better than what we have right now. I mean a 50 person clan would rather pay the resources equal to the top of their tier, say 99, than pay the resources for that of the 1000 player clans. Again, it isn't a perfect fix, but it will at least relieve the cost to the smaller clans for the time being.

 

Your power cores idea is just adding too much complexity to a simple fix imo.

 

About your housing idea, I think they said that you would have to build a certain building, or upgrade to the clan hall that lets you move up to the next tier, so that is similar to what you said, just in greater leaps than 10 at a time.

 

I agree your last idea could be useful, but that really isn't the biggest concern right now.

 

Upgrading a building and having to build new buildings is not the same. The latter also needs connectors and a bit of thought for layout. And later, it could be improved by making the housings customizable for owning players, etc.

 

Also, I don't see what's complex about fuel. Do you have trouble with the complexity of fueling your car?

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Upgrading a building and having to build new buildings is not the same. The latter also needs connectors and a bit of thought for layout. And later, it could be improved by making the housings customizable for owning players, etc.

 

Also, I don't see what's complex about fuel. Do you have trouble with the complexity of fueling your car?

 

I do like the concept of having like "housing", each member being able to build his/her own room could be cool. I was just stating what they wanted to do.

 

Fueling my car is something I must do to use it, if you add that into a game, it makes something less enjoyable. Do you enjoy going to fuel your car? I mean even if it was free, would you enjoy that 10 minute trip to and back just to get gas? No not really, it is very tedious.

 

What would it solve in game? Getting rid of the crazy amounts of credits some people have accumulated? Maybe, but it doesn't really make bigger clans have to work to keep them bigger, and it doesn't really help smaller clans not feel ripped off for being smaller. It would just be there to be there. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are meaning, it just seems unnecessary imo.

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In my humble opinion, I think that 1-10 people having one of the three increments is extremely exclusive. My clan is around 16 or so members, made mostly of close friends, so it would be out of place to reduce the clan any further, while at the same time, difficult to keep the same atmosphere with increasing the number. While that is a personal problem, I do feel that the jumps in increments is way too vast, and it would probably be extremely beneficial to add in a couple more tiers in there.

 

For instance:

 

Shadow Clan 1-10          1x Cost

(River?) Clan 11-50        5x Cost

Mountain Clan 51-100    10x Cost

(Sky?) Clan 101-500      50x Cost

Moon Clan 501-1000     100x Cost

 

That way there is a little bit more leeway for clans that have just exceeded the thresh-hold into the next tier of clan grouping, thus providing a little less incentive to cut out players to meet the limitation, similar to a wrestler who stops drinking water to meet a weight requirement.

i feel like this would be much more balanced, sure hope DE takes it into consideration. 3 Sizes fits all ? i don't think so ;)

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1-10 = Seems a good size, our clan is currently at 10.  We are a group of gamers who play many games, and not everyone in TS even plays Warframe, but we managed to hit 10 (think we have a few afk'ers)

10-100 = Also is a good size, lets admit it, if a clan has 49 people in it, odds are you don't know or socialize outside of warframe with all of them, so what difference will getting a handful of recruits to fill the ranks make?

100-1000=While it is a scale of 10, this seems to be a huge stretch.  I must agree a 500 limit could be thrown in to make things nice and purdy.

Edited by AXELfrieman
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Forgot to add, the wonderful tears of those over sized clans! lovely! brilliant! and gives me a butterfly feeling in my stomach!

Server can not handle it, to much load on server(s) Has no point being or running such a large sized clan.

Has no function what so ever to be over 1k members to begin with, and i doubt you see 1k online at a time in any point i time.

Probably compensating for something else!

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In my humble opinion, I think that 1-10 people having one of the three increments is extremely exclusive. My clan is around 16 or so members, made mostly of close friends, so it would be out of place to reduce the clan any further, while at the same time, difficult to keep the same atmosphere with increasing the number. While that is a personal problem, I do feel that the jumps in increments is way too vast, and it would probably be extremely beneficial to add in a couple more tiers in there.

 

For instance:

 

Shadow Clan 1-10          1x Cost

(River?) Clan 11-50        5x Cost

Mountain Clan 51-100    10x Cost

(Sky?) Clan 101-500      50x Cost

Moon Clan 501-1000     100x Cost

 

That way there is a little bit more leeway for clans that have just exceeded the thresh-hold into the next tier of clan grouping, thus providing a little less incentive to cut out players to meet the limitation, similar to a wrestler who stops drinking water to meet a weight requirement.

I like the look of this one, our clan is about 14 people, having to pay 10x as much for things because of 4 extra people seems a little excessive to me.

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Forgot to add, the wonderful tears of those over sized clans! lovely! brilliant! and gives me a butterfly feeling in my stomach!

Server can not handle it, to much load on server(s) Has no point being or running such a large sized clan.

Has no function what so ever to be over 1k members to begin with, and i doubt you see 1k online at a time in any point i time.

Probably compensating for something else!

I may be from a small clan on Warframe.

 

However you clearly never played a MMO before this or hell, never joined a raid guild in an mmo such as Ever Quest, Anarchy Online, EVE Online, or hell even World of Warcraft.

 

It is very easy to get to know a large community, sure you may not know every detail of their life but you do know them well enough in game.

 

It's also very easy to have a lot of members online at the same time... That's sort of common sense you gain more members = chances of more being online.

 

 

Just because it was unfair for us small clans in U8. That is NO reason to go out of our way to make it unfair for large clans in U9.

Edited by KuzmaVolkov
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I would like to see how long someone has been OFFLINE so i would be able to kick the inactive players from the clan. That would help out clans. invactive players are a wast of space.

I second this, i'd like to see clan member statistics.

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I may be from a small clan on Warframe.

 

However you clearly never played a MMO before this or hell, never joined a raid guild in an mmo such as Ever Quest, Anarchy Online, EVE Online, or hell even World of Warcraft.

 

It is very easy to get to know a large community, sure you may not know every detail of their life but you do know them well enough in game.

 

It's also very easy to have a lot of members online at the same time... That's sort of common sense you gain more members = chances of more being online.

 

 

Just because it was unfair for us small clans in U8. That is NO reason to go out of our way to make it unfair for large clans in U9.

Actually i did, Eve Online, FC, Scout and WH Dweller.

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The different sized tiers will be as follows:

 

Shadow Clan (up to 10)

Mountain Clan (up to 100)

Moon Clan (up to 1000)

 

Resources required to build Dojo components will multiply by 10 with each tier (i.e. A Shadow Clan needs 1 Ferite, Mountain Clan needs 10 Ferite, Moon Clan needs 100 Ferite.) You can increase your tier by building a larger Clan Hall.

 

 So if you have 11 people you are at an huge disadvantage.... better kick one out so it gets easier or wait till you have lets say 50 people waiting to be invited to you clan, so the mat increase dosent hit you so hard, before you invite anybody else...

 

I am the only one who got an issue with that? Would it not be nicer/better/more logical to increase the numbers of the stepping stones?

 

Something like

 

  •    1-10

     

     

  • 11-25

     

     

  • 25 - 50

     

     

  • 50 -100

     

     

  • 100-200

     

     

  • 200-400

     

     

  • 400-800

     

  • 800+

That list is the bare minimum on steping stone you should have, if you would made 10 tier you actually could rise the matterials neede from 1 to 10.

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Quick question for OP, DE Rebecca:

CLAN SIZE: We're currently thinking of these tiers: Shadow Clan (30 limit), River Clan (100 limit), Mountain Clan (500 limit), Moon Clan (2000 limit). Existing massive clans will likely grandfathered in but there may be upkeep friction for those really crazy sized ones. We will avoid forced splits though. Starting a clan will take some resources. Jumping between clans will be slow to reduce exploits. We need these limits to help bring sanity to database, networking and balance equations. Stay tuned, as we're still working out the details.

Thanks for playing!

Now this:

Shadow Clan (up to 10)

Mountain Clan (up to 100)

Moon Clan (up to 1000)

I kinda liked the four tier setup. Obviously if the servers can't handle that many simultaneous connections, then things had to be paired back, but four tiers just feels a bit more flexible. That said, my "clan" of myself would most definitely benefit in the Shadow tier. I'm just attempting to argue a bit on the behalf of larger "small" clans.

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From what I can see in this thread, I can sense that a majority of people can agree that if we are to have tiers, that there needs to be at least 5+ tiers.

 

So I don't want to worry about that. But what I am still kind of concerned about is Alliances.

 

Alliances seem to basically just be a super clan or a clan(s) within a clan. (clan-ception) Well what happens if too many clans enter into an Alliance? They say Alliances allow unbounded growth, but seeing that technology can't always be perfect, I feel there might eventually have to have a larger size above Alliance. So they make Empires. Inside Empires are several alliances. (A clan(s) with in a clan(s) with in a clan) Well what happens if that gets too big? I mean can Alliances really be unbounded? I bet Broframe will be able to prove them wrong eventually. I feel like unbounded growth is not the correct direction for DE to go. There won't be much of a difference in a chat channel comparing 5,000 people and 15,000. Almost all people will just think there are way to many people to count, like Region chat for example.

 

My suggestion for how Alliances should work:

From what I can tell, Alliances are just a group of clans. If I am wrong here, then disregard all I say. So say we have an Alliance called Awesome. Inside Awesome are 3 clans. Clan A, Clan B, and Clan C. Clan A is in control of the Alliance, i.e. started it. Clan B's leader is good friends with Clan A's. Clan C's leader is indifferent about Clan A's leader, but is good friends with Clan B's leader. C also has a friend whose clan is not in the alliance, Clan D. C asked A if his friend D could join, but A doesn't like the name of Clan D (Too risque, He doesn't want the D) so he says no. Now Clan D and Clan C can't be together without breaking up Clan C and Clan B.

(Sorry, way to many letters I know x.x)

 

My suggestion for this, would be to instead of making giant groups of clans, why not just let clans "Ally" with other clans but not all be just one giant group.

Clan A <-> Clan B

Clan B <-> Clan C

Clan C <-> Clan D

Clan A <-> Clan Z

 

This way, you only are friends/allied with clans that the leaders want to be friends with. It would also be easier to just have several chat channels that are shared between each allied pair. So some clan with 2 allies will get 2 chats, 1 for each ally. To cut back on lag/issues, maybe limit the amount of allies to like 5 or something.

 

This could also lead to new types of events. "Complete 25 Missions with someone from an allied clan within 2 days." "Get to a certain wave of defense with an allied clan member" etc. Might even lead into Rival clans so that those who want Competitive events can fight against rival clans, as long as both clans are willing. "Finish more missions than your rival clan in 5 hours" etc

I guess these events could also work in Alliances like how DE wants, but I still think a collection of Clans rather than just Allying with a clan would cause some troubles.

 

That is my idea, thoughts?

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I would really like some more explaination as to the alliance thing. Something about the wording..."The Founder of the Alliance" not "Founders" or "A founder" got me bothered a bit. So when an alliance is made...there will be ONE person in charge of the alliance, making them have...what power? How will this be handled? I'd hate to join an alliance and suddenly log on one day to find generals of another alliance in my dojo, deleting rooms, or another Warlord doing that...

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I think the inital tier system was good enough but as 2000 members might be too much, you might consider making it:

Shadow Clan (30 limit)

River Clan (100 limit) (Shadow Clan 30 x 3.33)

Mountain Clan (300 limit) (River Clan 100 x 3)

Moon Clan (1000 limit) (Mountain Clan 300 x 3.33)

you might even think of adding a tier with a 10 limit which fits perfectly with the increment pattern of 3x/3.33x

as a Shadow Clan would have a limit of 30

Edited by BlackVortex
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I still think the tier system should be done away with for determining building prices, and instead have it directly related to raw number of members.

 

Why?

 

Because bumping up a tier equalling a vast increase in building costs will create clan size limits unnecessarily, at the end-point of a tier.  Using the numbers in the OP, there are instances of clan sizes where +1 member = +900% increase in building cost, while others have proposed different tiers that would come out to 200-500% instead.  I would rather see +1 member not have such a dramatic impact on the increase in building cost (1 member = 1 ferrite, 2m = 2f ... 1000m = 1000f), which wouldn't lead to people being turned down from joining because "we don't wanna deal with the building cost increase," like I envision the tiering system will.  This will also help reduce the need for mid-tier groups from having to artificially create this system themselves, which ultimately causes more work for the players (ie, a 400-person group creating 4 100-person clans purely for dojo cost purposes.  After all, it would cost them only 40% of the 1000-person clan's cost to build 4 full identical dojos as 4 100-person clans).

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We re 142 in our Clan , I would prefer :

 

1-143 => x1 Cost

144-150 => x10 Cost (We don't care about the 144-150 anyway)

150+ => x100 Cost

 

Thanks DE_

 

 

 

Irony Inside

Edited by J0TAR0

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I still think the tier system should be done away with for determining building prices, and instead have it directly related to raw number of members.

 

Why?

 

Because bumping up a tier equalling a vast increase in building costs will create clan size limits unnecessarily, at the end-point of a tier.  Using the numbers in the OP, there are instances of clan sizes where +1 member = +900% increase in building cost, while others have proposed different tiers that would come out to 200-500% instead.  I would rather see +1 member not have such a dramatic impact on the increase in building cost (1 member = 1 ferrite, 2m = 2f ... 1000m = 1000f), which wouldn't lead to people being turned down from joining because "we don't wanna deal with the building cost increase," like I envision the tiering system will.  This will also help reduce the need for mid-tier groups from having to artificially create this system themselves, which ultimately causes more work for the players (ie, a 400-person group creating 4 100-person clans purely for dojo cost purposes.  After all, it would cost them only 40% of the 1000-person clan's cost to build 4 full identical dojos as 4 100-person clans).

Good Idea

Huge Flaw

 

Imagine the Kick to Build / Re-invite

Or Imagine the Clan Jumping via Inter Clans of a Same Alliance

1 x 100 Clan full Upgrade and 7 x 1000 Clans Satelites with nothing

 

The actual solution by DE_ is to lock via Upgrades of your MAIN HALL , your Clan Size

Edited by J0TAR0

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Good Idea

Huge Flaw

 

Imagine the Kick to Build / Re-invite

Or Imagine the Clan Jumping via Inter Clans of a Same Alliance

1 x 100 Clan full Upgrade and 7 x 1000 Clans Satelites with nothing

 

The actual solution by DE_ is to lock via Upgrades of your MAIN HALL , your Clan Size

 

Eh, they could implement some kind of system that locks it to a minimum still, with the 1:1 thing.  Have some rooms that have to be built to allow higher member maxes that then lock it to every hundred or something that costs can't drop below, or have it lock to its highest lifetime member count.  And the clan jumping thing would still be possible under DE's proposed system, wouldn't it?  I have friends who have already jumped to other clans for blueprints because we've been holding off on building our own dojo until these changes came in.

Edited by Skytt

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